Loving In Spite of Flaws... real or perceived

[Calamity Jane]

We read a lot on this board about how we should love people no matter what... that if we 'really loved' someone, we'd love them in spite of their weight or looks or stupidity or the way the dress or chew their food or whatever.

Isn't that a tad bit unrealisitc?

In PaganAngel's thread, he asked an honest question. I can't believe he didn't get flamed for it, and I think that speaks volumes for the maturity of the people on the board last night and today. Still, he's been told a few times that he doesn't love her enough to want to be with ehr forever the way that she currently is, so he should walk away.

Shouldn't we want the people that we love to improve themselves? Why isn't it ok to selfishly want someone to be attractive and at their best? Yeah, we should want what's best for them... but shouldn't they also strive to be what's best for us?

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

I think Faulkner said it best.

"We love in spite of, not because of"

At least, it works for me.

 

[CoolidgEffect]

Here is a little excerpt from a beautiful poem I just read. I’m sure you’re familiar with it. Surprisingly it seems so relevant here.

And well I know our marriage bliss
While life shall last will never cease;
For I shall always let thee do,
In generous love, just what I please.

 

[paganangel]

I think Faulkner said it best.

"We love in spite of, not because of"

At least, it works for me.

agreed, but that only says why, not if it is right or wrong.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Here is a little excerpt from a beautiful poem I just read. I’m sure you’re familiar with it. Surprisingly it seems so relevant here.

And well I know our marriage bliss
While life shall last will never cease;
For I shall always let thee do,
In generous love, just what I please.

shithead.

 

[Guest]

agreed, but that only says why, not if it is right or wrong.

Everything in this universe is relative. But to what?

Right and wrong are relative.

This is my way out.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I should add that this isn't just about PA.

I have a friend who's married to a guy with terrible personal hygiene. It's always driven her insane, but she convinced herself that if she loved everything else about him, she should be able to ignore this 'one thing'.

They've been married for 2 years, and sleeping apart for one. She can't stand the thought of being intimate with someone who showers twice a month. I don't think it's a sign that she doesn't love him just because she wants to be with a guy that doesn't smell bad.

 

[CoolidgEffect]

shithead.

Peace comes, and discord flies away,
Love's bright day follows hatred's night;
For I am ready to admit
That you are wrong and I am right.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

agreed, but that only says why, not if it is right or wrong.

I tend not to get into the "right and wrong" labeling debate except as regards myself. Even then, I'm probably not qualified to judge.

What I can say is that I don't think it is "love" unless there is acceptance.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Everything in this universe is relative. But to what?

Right and wrong are relative.

Agreed.

 

[paganangel]

I tend not to get into the "right and wrong" labeling debate except as regards myself. Even then, I'm probably not qualified to judge.

What I can say is that I don't think it is "love" unless there is acceptance.

acceptance and tolerance are not the same.

 

[Calamity Jane]

What I can say is that I don't think it is "love" unless there is acceptance.

I disagree. Acceptance implies that no matter what, you're going to want this person in your life. Have you ever thought how lazy that allows the other person to be? I think you end up cheating both people.

 

[Guest]

acceptance and tolerance are not the same.

Accept the things that cannot be.

Do not tolerate things that can be improved.

Am I getting right?

 

[J.B.]

Shouldn't we want the people that we love to improve themselves?

Yes it’s fair to ask , because we love them we want them to improve this or that if it’ll benefit them and not ourselves.
BUT the key word here is ask and nor require


We love them and should accept them the way we fell in love with them, just as we ask them to do.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

I disagree. Acceptance implies that no matter what, you're going to want this person in your life. Have you ever thought how lazy that allows the other person to be? I think you end up cheating both people.

It does not imply that in my case. I can love somebody and not have them in my life at an intolerable level. I love me too.

 

[paganangel]

homework assignment

everyone go watch leaving las vegas.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Yes it’s fair to ask , because we love them we want them to improve this or that if it’ll benefit them and not ourselves.
BUT the key word here is ask and nor require


We love them and should accept them the way we fell in love with them, just as we ask them to do.

So my friend with the smelly husband should be ok with it now, just because she convinced herself she was ok with it then?

I don't think it's a sign she loves him less that she told him she wouldn't sleep in the same bed with him until he showered at least every other day.

His hygeine isn't hurting him at all, but it makes her want to pack her bags and leave. Shouldn't he want to change his habits for no reason other than it would make her happy?

 

[J.B.]

By not being clean he’s not only hurting himself and opening himself to some sort of disease, but if he’s sleeping with her hurting her as well.

 

[Rubyfruit]

Flawless people bore me to tears.

 

[Calamity Jane]

By not being clean he’s not only hurting himself and opening himself to some sort of disease, but if he’s sleeping with her hurting her as well.

I don't think that's entirely accurate. Lots of people, historically, haven't had what we would consider great hygiene... I'm not sure it made them less healthy.

It's just gross, is all. Something she finds impossible to live with.

What if it was something besides hygiene? What if it was the fact that he dressed really badly, or spoke poorly, or lost his teeth and refused to get dentures?

 

[The Heretic]

We read a lot on this board about how we should love people no matter what... that if we 'really loved' someone, we'd love them in spite of their weight or looks or stupidity or the way the dress or chew their food or whatever.

Isn't that a tad bit unrealisitc?

Yes - very much so. If we were to love someone regardless of who they are or what they do, then we would have no discernment whatsoever. What it comes down to is that we are biological creatures, we have biological urges and needs which include seeking satisfaction of physical as well as mental need. If we ignore our needs we aren't going to be happy.

I "really love" my daughter, and I always will despite whatever she does - but I love her unconditionally because she is my offspring, an extension of me, and therefore, in a way, I am loving myself and making myself happy. I even love my ex-wife - although I am not "in love" with her anymore - but I decided some years ago that it was better if I no longer lived with her because she made me unhappy.

I think sometimes it is not so much about whether you love someone or not, but rather about doing what makes you happy, or what makes you and them happy. I could easily love someone who is obese, but living with them as a sexual partner wouldn't make me happy, and I don't think being "in love" with them would last very long. It is a balancing act; on the one hand you generally have to be happy in a relationship to make someone else happy and to have a healthy relationship, on the other hand you may have to sacrifice a bit of your own happiness to coexist with someone else. No relationship is perfect, but there is a balance point somewhere in between the needs and desires of each person where the scales tip one way or the other.

 

[J.B.]

"dressing bad" like beauty is all in the eye of the beholder

as for the others. well if you managed to look past them from the beginning long enough to fall in love with this person then why is it bothering you now? it just doesn't make any sense to me. sorry.

 

[Calamity Jane]

I don't know, JB. Perhaps it's one of those things that you thought you could ignore, because the rest of the package seemed so perfect, and now it's like an elephant in the livingroom. Suddenly, it's all you can see.

All I'm saying is, maybe it's good to discuss and address those 'little things' before it's a lifelong commitment thing.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Re: homework assignment

everyone go watch leaving las vegas.

LOL. I'll watch "Ladies Man" instead.

 

[The Heretic]

as for the others. well if you managed to look past them from the beginning long enough to fall in love with this person then why is it bothering you now? it just doesn't make any sense to me. sorry.

I was young (18) and foolish, and I was in lust - which resulted in her getting pregnant and us getting married. I was in love with her, but I saw, even before she was pregnant, that our relationship was in trouble and I tried to breakup with her. Being easily swayed I let her talk me into staying together with her and the rest is history.

Eventually, even though I loved her - I could see that her emotional stability problems were just getting worse and worse, and that I wasn't going to be happy staying with her. We could have got counseling, and indeed she wanted to, but I was lazy, selfish and wanted to move on with my life - it was not my proudest moment.

As for love making sense - we are talking about emotions here, not what car we are choosing - rational logic often is set aside in the heat of the moment. This is why I am now very careful about who I get involved with before I fall deeply in love with them.