Lifestyle CD Question...

[august_lord_savage]

Hi there.

Although this question pertains to a story I'm currently writing, I felt a tad off putting it into the 'Story Ideas' box, as the plot, characters, and other such things are already set.

However, one of my characters is, in fact, a crossdresser. I've taken the tale a step further, though, for--having been raised in the company of women, having had no contact with men prior to the story's onset--he actually considers himself a girl.

Here's where the question comes into play: in discussing the tale with others, several have cited a gender-related study amongst post-operative hermaphrodites, wherein their sexual duality has been 'corrected' to either male or female. Children forced down either path tend to rebel; males consider themselves females, whereas the reverse is true in the opposite case. As such, it's not possible to properly 'sex' anyone.

However, I disagree, citing complicity as my evidence: should that person enjoy being treated as a woman, assuming a feminine lifestyle, then the forcing element of the sexing is removed. A man CAN grow up believing he's a woman if he enjoys and actively participates in that lifestyle--again, the same is true in vice-versa, a woman for a man.

Well, what's your opinion? Can a man grow up believing he's a woman? Can a woman grow up believing she's a man? Why?

Help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Stefani]

Your question doesn't make any sense to me. I mean, you're writing a story about a crossdresser who thinks they're a woman. What does that have to do with intersexed people?

Are you asking is it possible for a man to grow up believing he is a woman?

Yes. Happens all the time. They're called transsexuals. There is a little boy in our neighborhood - when you ask him what he wants to be when he grows up - he says "a woman." Plenty of transsexuals go their entire lives identifying as females. That's why they go through SRS (sexual reassignment surgury).

Just as an aside... i don't know if any intersexed people are in your story or not... but ditch the term "hermaphrodite." It's politically incorrected. Intersexed people may take offense to it.

Also, not sure i'd label your main character a 'crossdresser.' A CD or a transvestite is someone who gets their jollies wearing the clothes of the opposite gender. They don't necessarily identify as the opposite sex. If they did, they'd more than likely start taking steps to transition... like taking hormones... and then they'd be considered a transsexual.

Personally, I am a pre-op transsexual, and have been on hormones since 1996. If I can help answer any questions, let me know.

Steffie

 

[august_lord_savage]

First off, thanks for correcting me on usage of the term 'hermaphrodite'; as far as I knew, that was the clinical term (as opposed to anything derogatory), but I'm more than willing to admit my mistakes.

While I don't commonly associate the intersexed with the transsexual, the question here relates more to gender identity. In the example I found, if Boy A is forced to become Girl A, Boy A will reject the identity of Girl A and pursue his own identity; contrariwise, it's my belief that if Boy B is encouraged to grow up as Girl B, if he enjoys the gender status ascribed to him as Girl B, he'll have very little difficulty believing that he's a woman.

However, the character in question isn't merely a boy who thinks he's SUPPOSED to be a woman; rather, having been raised solely in the company of women (e.g. a nunnery) without any contact to men... well, speaking not only mentally, but physically, he believes he's entirely a girl, not requiring any sort of surgery whatsoever (all the better for him, as this is a Medieval novel).

Perhaps my first question was a tad too broad: if a boy is raised as a girl, by women, without any contact whatsoever from men, would this form of gender encoding take? Could he interperet his anatomy to be that of a woman's?

 

[Stefani]

Perhaps my first question was a tad too broad: if a boy is raised as a girl, by women, without any contact whatsoever from men, would this form of gender encoding take? Could he interperet his anatomy to be that of a woman's?

No problem on the terminology thing. When you get into gender issues it can get a bit confusing at times. I mentioned it only because i have an intersexed friend, and she's a tad touchy about it. It's sort of like calling someone "Oriental" when they are Asian. You wouldn't think it's a big deal, but to them it is.

As far as your revised question...

Don't you think it's a matter of nature vrs nurture? Some people will say your genetic code is more important, others will say your environment.

Plus, don't you think your character is eventually going to notice that his body is different from the bodies of the women in the nunnery? For example, a lack of breasts? Facial hair?

It's possible that during his younger years, in the conservative confines of a religious setting he would not notice how his body is different... so maybe up to age 10 or so he could think he was female... which would have an extremely powerful affect on his psyche. I guess the question is: what happens when he realizes his body is different? Does he continue believing he's a "woman trapped in a man's body" (the classic transsexual thought process) or does he accept that he's a man?

I have a teenage son that has lived with me his whole life. As a transsexual, i have a lot of alternative lifestyle friends. My son never realized that my friends were gay, lesbian or transsexual - until he was about 12. Before that age, kids just don't make those kinds of distinctions. Once they hit their teen years they're a lot more aware of people's sexual identity.

Hope that helps.

Steffie

 

[august_lord_savage]

As far as your revised question...

Don't you think it's a matter of nature vrs nurture? Some people will say your genetic code is more important, others will say your environment.

I do agree that the question here doesn't really have much of a reachable answer; after all, one can't please everyone.

Plus, don't you think your character is eventually going to notice that his body is different from the bodies of the women in the nunnery? For example, a lack of breasts? Facial hair?

I've been reluctant to put any specific details of the story online, as I'm already talking to a few publishers about it. I do address these problems, though, but largely in an SF/Fantasy context. If you'd like to hear those details, you can reach me via MSN IM at trizole@hotmail.com.

It's possible that during his younger years, in the conservative confines of a religious setting he would not notice how his body is different... so maybe up to age 10 or so he could think he was female... which would have an extremely powerful affect on his psyche. I guess the question is: what happens when he realizes his body is different? Does he continue believing he's a "woman trapped in a man's body" (the classic transsexual thought process) or does he accept that he's a man?

I have a teenage son that has lived with me his whole life. As a transsexual, i have a lot of alternative lifestyle friends. My son never realized that my friends were gay, lesbian or transsexual - until he was about 12. Before that age, kids just don't make those kinds of distinctions. Once they hit their teen years they're a lot more aware of people's sexual identity.

The character in question is around fifteen years old; however, adjusting levels of naivete to fit the year 700 A.D., I think I might have a little leeway here. Gender issues aside, a lot of the plot centers on the relations betwixt Carolingian France and Ummayyad Spain, so introducing a time factor may be complicated--albeit necessary... -.-

In any event, however, thanks a lot for the help.

 

[Stefani]

The character in question is around fifteen years old; however, adjusting levels of naivete to fit the year 700 A.D., I think I might have a little leeway here. Gender issues aside, a lot of the plot centers on the relations betwixt Carolingian France and Ummayyad Spain, so introducing a time factor may be complicated--albeit necessary... -.-

In any event, however, thanks a lot for the help.

Hey anytime.

Sounds like an interesting story, one that requires a high level of research.

Did you ever read "Raptor" by Gary Jennings? It's set during the end of the Roman Empire and at the beginning of different barbarian invasions, from people like the Huns. Not sure what century that is... 500 AD??

It's interesting in the respect that the main character is intersexed. He/she starts in a monestary... and is being treated like a woman by the monks... i.e., being raped. But he/she also has a penis, and is able to adopt a male personna as well. It's a fascinating book from the perspective that the main character floats back and forth between a male and a female - adopting whichever suits his/her purposes - through the entire story. It's quite well done.

Steffie

 

[august_lord_savage]

S--

Although I've not heard of Jennings' 'Raptor' before, it sounds a bit like an action-packed version of 'Orlando' by Virginia Woolf; undoubtedly it's written better, methinks, as I utterly hate Woolf's scribblings. Anyway, thanks for the recommendation: it's now on my 'to-read' list.

Have you ever heard of an ancient tribe called the Scythians? They're given great detail in Herodotus' 'Histories', remaining a dormant threat to both the fledgling empires of Persia and Greece throughout the first few books. Think of a cross between Viking berserkers and Romanian gypsies traipsing across the Anatolian plane, and you've pretty much got the Scythians. Interestingly enough, however (and, quite thankfully, pertinent to our conversation), this people took pride in the fact that their gods purportedly 'cursed' them--i.e., bestowed upon them both male and female organs. A fully intergendered tribe, they typically subsisted out of the backs of their wagons, oft-times cannibalizing outsiders. Theirs was a tribe so feared that, when King Cambyses of Persia went to attack the Ionians, the king actually built a bridge AROUND their territory, hoping to avoid a chance encounter with the Scythians.

Of course, the Scythians exist on that borderline-area of history with Alexander the Great's defeated tribe of homosexual robbers; regardless of whether it's true or not, it does make for a nice legend.

--ALS

Hey anytime.

Sounds like an interesting story, one that requires a high level of research.

Did you ever read "Raptor" by Gary Jennings? It's set during the end of the Roman Empire and at the beginning of different barbarian invasions, from people like the Huns. Not sure what century that is... 500 AD??

It's interesting in the respect that the main character is intersexed. He/she starts in a monestary... and is being treated like a woman by the monks... i.e., being raped. But he/she also has a penis, and is able to adopt a male personna as well. It's a fascinating book from the perspective that the main character floats back and forth between a male and a female - adopting whichever suits his/her purposes - through the entire story. It's quite well done.

Steffie

 

[Stefani]

S--

Have you ever heard of an ancient tribe called the Scythians? They're given great detail in Herodotus' 'Histories', remaining a dormant threat to both the fledgling empires of Persia and Greece throughout the first few books.
--ALS

Actually I have heard of the Scythians. I am a lifelong student of ancient Greek culture and history. I've actually read Herodotus, along with Homer, Euripides, Sophocles, Thucydides and Aeschylus. Been to Greece twice to climb around the ruins at Delphi, Mycenae, Delos, Argos, Tiryns, etc...

But I can't say that I know a lot about the Scythians. I know they gave the Persians and Alexander trouble, but that's about as much as I've read. Had no idea that they had anything to do with transgendered people. Although I do believe that according to some of the Greek myths the Amazons possibly came from their area around the Black Sea.

If you want to read a good history book about Alexander, the best I've ever read is Peter Green's "Alexander of Macedon." Green is or was a history professor at some Texas university. It's extremely well written. Probably one of the best history books I've ever read - and I don't even particularly care for Alexander.

Steffie

 

[august_lord_savage]

S--

Ah, wonderful! I'm quite glad that someone else on Literotica has heard of the Scythians; they're right up there with the Spartans, the Berserkers, the Kensai, and the Mongol Calvarymen as some of my favorite warriors of the ancient world. I must apologize for any misinformation or terminological errors in my preceding post, as I've not read Herodotus in a coon's age. Still, the general sense is correct; if you like, I can even point you to his extensive chapter regarding those Scythians, provided I get my studying done.

I'll be certain to thumb through Green's 'Alexander of Macedon', too, per your recommendation: the man utterly fascinates me, and not unduly, as he's been the subject of countless films, poems, and songs the world over. Were you a bit more interested in Alexander, I'd highly recommend a recent bit of animation interpreting his life-story with a SF/Fantasy twist--'Reign the Conqueror'. The character models and concept art were done by Peter Chung, the legendary animator who worked on MTV's 'Aeon Fluxx' series in the mid-90s. As far as the revision itself goes, Alexander's Macedonia is a world of androgynous assassins, grinding gearwork, and high-tech swords and sorcery... all the while incorporating classical historical figures, such as Plato, Aristotle, Ptolemy, Darius III, and the like.

Unfortunately, while the quality of the piece is ultimately superior, it tends to be a little too abstract and a little too psychadelic for most to properly wrap their heads about. Well, such is life.

--ALS

Actually I have heard of the Scythians. I am a lifelong student of ancient Greek culture and history. I've actually read Herodotus, along with Homer, Euripides, Sophocles, Thucydides and Aeschylus. Been to Greece twice to climb around the ruins at Delphi, Mycenae, Delos, Argos, Tiryns, etc...

But I can't say that I know a lot about the Scythians. I know they gave the Persians and Alexander trouble, but that's about as much as I've read. Had no idea that they had anything to do with transgendered people. Although I do believe that according to some of the Greek myths the Amazons possibly came from their area around the Black Sea.

If you want to read a good history book about Alexander, the best I've ever read is Peter Green's "Alexander of Macedon." Green is or was a history professor at some Texas university. It's extremely well written. Probably one of the best history books I've ever read - and I don't even particularly care for Alexander.

Steffie

 

[Stefani]

S--
I'll be certain to thumb through Green's 'Alexander of Macedon', too, per your recommendation: the man utterly fascinates me, and not unduly, as he's been the subject of countless films, poems, and songs the world over.
--ALS

I'm guessing you saw Oliver Stone's "Alexander"? What did you think?

Historically, I thought it was extremely accurate, right down to the clothes, the armor, the names of Alex's generals, someone really did their homework.

But I thought Colin Farrell was just horrible. Not my idea of an Alexander at all. I doubt I would have followed him across the street to a Burger King, much less across 16 countries.

I read a review that made a lot of sense. It said that George C Scott literally became "Patton". He was totally believeable. You could have seen his soldiers following him. But not Colin Farrell. He did not inspire any sense of admiration or confidence. If Colin had led the Macedonians, it's doubtful they would have ever gotten out of Pella.

Stay sweet,
Steffie

 

[august_lord_savage]

S--

Truthfully, I've not seen 'Alexander', and I'll tell you why: before they brought Stone in, the production company had to rid themselves of Baz Luhrman. Rather than a bland, uninspired historical epic, these guys could've had a lush, visual re-imagining of that entire period ('William Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet'/'Moulon Rouge', anybody?); unfortunately, they opted for the former, costing themselves millions on a dud.

Please don't misunderstand me: historical accuracy is an important factor to whatever period one intends to film. However, there's simply so much left unsaid in the history books that the director's left a good deal of creativity to work with. With Luhrman, we'd have probably seen something off-the-wall and overblown, but at the very least we'd have seen something truly original, a wonderful bit of visual/textual interplay. Stone's quality has really slipped over the years, so I sincerely doubt the audience would walk away with anything other than a perfectly mundane movie experience.

Alternatively, though, I've got 'Patton' on DVD--WONDERFUL film. Unfortunately for poor Mr. Scott, though, when he stepped into that role, he didn't know he'd be playing it the rest of his career.

Then again, as a connoisseur of bad cinema with such greats as 'Mannequin' and 'Rocky IV' on the same (shame?) shelf, perhaps I'd better not complain...

Likewise,

--ALS

I'm guessing you saw Oliver Stone's "Alexander"? What did you think?

Historically, I thought it was extremely accurate, right down to the clothes, the armor, the names of Alex's generals, someone really did their homework.

But I thought Colin Farrell was just horrible. Not my idea of an Alexander at all. I doubt I would have followed him across the street to a Burger King, much less across 16 countries.

I read a review that made a lot of sense. It said that George C Scott literally became "Patton". He was totally believeable. You could have seen his soldiers following him. But not Colin Farrell. He did not inspire any sense of admiration or confidence. If Colin had led the Macedonians, it's doubtful they would have ever gotten out of Pella.

Stay sweet,
Steffie