Just why?

[BotanyBoy]

I'm not.

So no progressiveness then!!

See now you can just be an anarchist, that sometimes supports social programs.

Social/egalitarian programs fight us becoming Fascists.

No they don't, they very often actually lead to it.

Stalin ring a bell?

Mao??

No, all of those places already had all that,

Yea, because NO GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY....anarchy.

Definition of anarchy
1 a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority the city's descent into anarchy
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy

Again, this isn't your natural heirarchy, it was a pre-existing condition, in all 3 of those examples.

Natural hierarchy is a pre-exiting condition to government authority.

It doesn't depend on your definition

Yes it does, unless you're full of shit...then..and only then...does the definition not matter.

 

[psiberzerker]

an anarchist, that sometimes supports social programs.

I just challenged your opposition to them, because i like how you attempt to support your worldview. I have no vested interet in social programmes, personally.

No they don't, they very often actually lead to it

They often fail their opposition to totalitarianism. Unfortunately, a lot of them learned early on that they could Promise socialism for the people, and then either go mad with power, or plan it as a scam from the start. (L. Ron. Hubbard.)

Natural hierarchy is a pre-exiting condition to government authority.

Hahaha! Good one! No seriously, like the red sea. Nice try, however the Warlords were already there. I was saying They didn't grow out of the Anarchy, and in the case of Somalia actually caused it. That hierarcy survived the anarchy, and thrived in it, it didn't grow out of it.

 

[Veroe]

Oi this thread's gone off topic as fuck.

Do we even remember what the OP was about? I don't.

I do want to thank you guys. I'm new to this talking about politics, I've always avoided political or economic conversation before my 2017 awakening, and this debate forced me to put into words my core beliefs in how democracy and capitalism and the role the government in both should be balanced.

I don't have all the answers on the hows but I do have a direction I'd like to see it the economy lean toward now.

Will learn more as time goes on.

 

[BotanyBoy]

They often fail their opposition to totalitarianism.

Because you can't use totalitarianism to solve a totalitarianism problem.

Going Stalin on Hitler was GREAT!!....ohhh AntiFa!!!! then oh shit....they had to deal with the devil they sent to kill the devil.

That is to say fighting fire with fire is a very risky game most people lose.

Hahaha! Good one! No seriously, like the red sea.

I don't have to tell you how idiotic it is comparing geological features to human social structures is do I?

Seriously, I tried to ignore it the first time...it's still just as bat shit crazy.

And no seriously, it preexists government authority.

That hierarcy survived the anarchy, and thrived in it, it didn't grow out of it.

Thriving in it is growing out of it.

Anarchy allows the hierarchy to FLOURISH....which is why I argue that anarchism is right wing.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Oi this thread's gone off topic as fuck.

Do we even remember what the OP was about? I don't.

I do want to thank you guys. I'm new to this talking about politics, I've always avoided political or economic conversation before my 2017 awakening, and this debate forced me to put into words my core beliefs in how democracy and capitalism and the role the government in both should be balanced.

I don't have all the answers on the hows but I do have a direction I'd like to see it the economy lean toward now.

Will learn more as time goes on.

Cool

Do lots of reading and take all politics with a grain of salt.

Lots of agendas...lots of propaganda and shit that will try to manipulate you out there.

 

[psiberzerker]

Because you can't use totalitarianism to solve a totalitarianism problem

I'm not trying to. I am one of those problems.

I don't have to tell you how idiotic it is comparing natural geological features to human social structures is do I?

No, I would have said specious, but you had to throw in an insult there, didn't you.

Thriving in it is growing out of it.

Okay, completely misunderstood what you ment by "Growing out of it." As in originating from it. No, it feeds off of it, definitely.

Okay, so we agree. i shouldn't have to ask you 7 times to say which Hierarchy. "Might makes right!" How hard was that? I would have assumed you ment the racial/sexual superiority, if I was one to assume what your point was, instead of give you every opportunity to make one.

There's multiple natural hierarchies. If they're truly natural, the feed on chaos, and are surpressed by attempts at Order, but you're fighting entropy, here. Statism is fighting the natural order, it's not a permanent state. We're not good enough to make a permanent stable state. It generally just takes 1 asshole to fuck it up, and there's always at least one asshole.

You support Capitalism because it worked out great for you. I'm against it, because it's fucked me my whole life.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You support Capitalism because it worked out great for you. I'm against it, because it's fucked me my whole life.

How has it fucked you your whole life?

 

[psiberzerker]

How has it fucked you your whole life?

I grew up transgender in Raleigh?

 

[Veroe]

You support Capitalism because it worked out great for you. I'm against it, because it's fucked me my whole life.

I hear you. It's fucked over a lot of people.

But I don't think an anarchy will work out too well. I want a Capitalist system where companies and or CEOs don't get a slap on the wrist for fucking people over they get jailtime. I want an honest well-regulated capitalist system not the crony capitalism we have had for the past forty years or more.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I grew up transgender in Raleigh?

That's got nothing to do with capitalism.

Definition of capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

How does allowing people to privately own property and voluntarily exchange goods and services for profit fucked you over?

I hear you. It's fucked me over too. It's fucked over a lot of people. I don't think an anarchy will work out too well. I want a Capitalist system where companies and or CEOs don't get a slap on the wrist for fucking people over they get jailtime. I want an honest well-regulated capitalist system not the crony capitalism we have had for the past forty years or more.

No such thing man.

You can't keep greedy/corrupt fuckers out of government.

And honestly I'd be happy if the government would just stop bailing them out for fucking people over.

"Too big to fail" my ass....we should have let them burn.

 

[psiberzerker]

That's got nothing to do with capitalism.

How does allowing people to exchange goods and services for profit fucked you over?

Allowing Men, and Women to exchange goods, and services for profit. It allowed me to get gang raped in jail.

You can't keep greedy/corrupt fuckers out of government.

Unrestricted Capitalism sure can't.

And honestly I'd be happy if the government would just stop bailing them out for fucking people over.

This is the system you support, statist. You bailed them out. Your tax dollars did. Yeah, it is an emotional argument. (Before, it was a question, because honestly IDKY you weren't pissed about it before.)

Join the club, man.

 

[Veroe]

Botany Boy: We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

I'll settle for Politicians and to point out a good example the Koch brothers not to be quite so cozy together.

I think everyone can be pissed about the fuckers not getting the justice they deserve. I think a lot of the energy on Trump's campaign (other than the racist shit he talked about) was his populist messaging. kinda mirrored by a populist message on the left with Bernie.

Its a weird coincidence that both people on the left and right want corporations and billionaires to face justice for the illegal shit they do. It's the one thing we could probably agree on if we could agree that we could agree on any one thing at all.

SMH

 

[BotanyBoy]

Allowing Men, and Women to exchange goods, and services for profit. It allowed me to get gang raped in jail.

You mean the government jail you were put in by a government thug enforcer probably for exchanging goods and services without government permission?

You understand that's not capitalism that put you in jail right?

Unrestricted Capitalism sure can't.

Unrestricted capitalism doesn't claim to nor does it need to.

This is the system you support, statist.

No, it's not.

This is the system that "progress" has ruined.

Call me statist, I don't claim to be an anarchist so whatever.

You bailed them out. Your tax dollars did. Yeah, it is an emotional argument. (Before, it was a question, because honestly IDKY you weren't pissed about it before.)

Join the club, man.

No, the PRECIOUS government bailed them out....with my tax dollars by force of violence.

Wealth re-distribution is a left wing/socialist thug thing.

Capitalist don't do that shit.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Botany Boy: We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

I guess so.

Its a weird coincidence that both people on the left and right want corporations and billionaires to face justice for the illegal shit they do. It's the one thing we could probably agree on if we could agree that we could agree on any one thing at all.

SMH

What illegal shit are "corporations" doing that they aren't facing justice for?

The left can't shut the mother fuckers down fast enough.....ya got SWAT teams taking out lemonade stands, tazing lawn boys and shooting farmers for feeding homeless people without getting permission from the government.

Got the USDA taking family farms from people for Monsanto.

Oh yea...love that PRECIOUS government regulation just shitting on one family after another!

That's not something we all agree on.


What I do find weird is that the left thinks more money and power for the government to bully people with is going to solve the corrupt government problems.

What...tha....fuck.

 

[psiberzerker]

You mean the government jail you were probably put in for exchanging goods and services without government permission?

No, for not sexually assaulting 2 boys while they rode bye me on bikes. I've never been arrested for sex work.

I'm not a criminal, I'm an anarchist. Because I was treated as a criminal. Where's your line? What's not a severe enough crime for being thrown in the wrong jail, and gangraped? When isn't it justified?

Capitalism didn't get you gang raped in jail.

Well, forgive me for not paying into it after that.

Unrestricted capitalism doesn't claim to nor does it need to.

And you're fine with that, as long as you get your vacation home? Senators can have free healthcare on your dime, but the people who can't actually afford it can't? Veterans get the worst healthcare on the planet, often worse than no care, but pop another Corona, it's time to be an asshole on the internet?

This is the system that "progress" has ruined. No, the PRECIOUS government bailed them out.
With my tax dollars by force of violence.

That wasn't socialism, that was capitalsm. At work, pure unrestrained capitalism. You're footing the bill for it.

You use that word violence. You feel violated, and betrayed, because some of your hard earned money went to auto-makers? Try being a registered sex offendor because someone looked in your window, and saw you in your nighty.

Poor poor wealthy California Capitalist. You didn't get a vote on how your tax dollars were spent?

Pussy.

Capitalist don't do that shit.

No, of course not. I can see now that you're the real victim here.

 

[Veroe]

About what?



What illegal shit are "corporations" doing that they aren't facing justice for?

You and the left can't shut the mother fuckers down fast enough.....ya got SWAT teams taking out lemonade stands, tazing lawn boys and shooting farmers for feeding homeless people without getting permission from the government.

That's not something we all agree on.

Making money just isn't inherently evil nor is it oppressing you.

Okay I retract my statement. We apparently can't agree on anything at all.!

 

[BotanyBoy]

No, for not sexually assaulting 2 boys while they rode bye me on bikes.

That's got NOTHING to do with capitalism.

How has capitalism been fucking you your whole life?

That wasn't socialism, that was capitalsm.

At work, pure unrestrained capitalism. You're footing the bill for it.

Government confiscation of the means of production/property/wealth and re-distributing it isn't capitalism....that's socialist shit.

I've linked the definitions of both numerous times....have you not read either definition or are you just fucking with me?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Okay I retract my statement. We apparently can't agree on anything at all.!

So you can't name any illegal shit corporations aren't being held liable for??

Imagine that.

You just hate others who have more than you don't ya?

It's ok...haters gotta hate, it's the fuel that gets assholes like me up in the morning

 

[psiberzerker]

Government confiscation of the means of production/property/wealth and re-distributing it isn't capitalism....that's socialism.

They didn't redistribute it. They payed kickbacks for decades of bribes. "Too big to fail," no they just like getting free cars. Yeah, they payed it off to a means of production, but also real estate companies, banks, and internet companies. That's just backscratcing.

Socialism would have been spending it on people. Instead, they gave the people incentive to buy more cars.

 

[psiberzerker]

But I don't think an anarchy will work out too well.

I don't care. I can have a life, America is fucking itself. I'm just going to watch, and retire. Anarchy doesn't work. I don't want it to.

 

[BotanyBoy]

They didn't redistribute it.

Yea they did.

May not be the redistribution you wanted, but they did.

They payed kickbacks for decades of bribes. "Too big to fail," no they just like getting free cars. Yeah, they payed it off to a means of production, but also real estate companies, banks, and internet companies. That's just backscratcing.

That's not just backscratching, that's government ownership over the means of production and distribution of goods......that's socialism.

Socialism would have been spending it on people. Instead, they gave the people incentive to buy more cars.

They did spend it on people.

Not that it matters.

Socialism doesn't say anything about how the government spends it's money...just that it takes it and does so.

AGAIN:

Definition of socialism
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

When the government confiscates (takes ownership) over the means of production like they did with "too big to fail" ....point blank socialism.


If it has ben PRIVATE companies/corporations that had decided to spend a bunch of money and do fund raisers to bail their billionaire buddies out?

That would have been capitalism.

Because:

Definition of capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

Notice how nowhere in the definition of capitalism does it talk about government taking your shit and giving it (investing) to whoever the government feels deserves it.

Do you understand now?

Private control over property/production/distribution = capitalism.

Government control over property/production/distribution = socialism.


NOT

Evil government shit = capitalism

Warm fuzzy government shit = socialism

 

[psiberzerker]

That's not just backscratching, that's government ownership over the means of production.

No, Ford is still privately owned. They didn't buy the factory, they gave incentives for buyers to buy more cars, and payed it off with tax money. Tell you what, I'll come over, and steel your TV, and then, I'll sell it back to you, but at a discount!

They did spend it on people.

How, by making people spend more money?

When the government confiscates (takes ownership) over the means of production like they did with "too big to fail" ....point blank socialism.

So, if they Don't take control over it, and it goes back to business as usual, that's called Marketing.

Evil government shit = capitalism

Warm fuzzy government shit = socialism

It doesn't work if you call the evil government shit Socialism. If they'd seized the means of production, If the PotUS hadn't done fucking commercials for all 3 manufacturers, and if they hadn't taken it out of your pocket so the people could have cheaper cars. Doesn't your definition of Socialism say it's against private ownership? They even got private ownership with this "Buy more cars for America!" campaign. It was a marketing campaign, and because you don't like it, it's {Grumpy voice} "Socialism." Read your own damned definitions.

 

[BotanyBoy]

No, Ford is still privately owned.

So?

That trillion dollars the government redistributed wasn't.

How, by making people spend more money?

By giving it to them. Where do you think that trillion bucks went?

All those mega millions in bonuses all the execs got for crashing their companies via piss poor management and bidniz practices? Welfare!!!

If they'd seized the means of production,

They did...they took over a trillion dollars.

It was a marketing campaign, and because you don't like it, it's {Grumpy voice} "Socialism."

That may have been how the welfare recipients spent it.

And it's not socialism because I don't like it, it's socialism because the government seized the means of production and redistributed those means in order to fund said marketing campaign.

If those companies had paid for their own marketing campaigns? THAT would be capitalism.

Read your own damned definitions.

They aren't my definitions, they are the definitions.

And I'm not the one who needs to read them.

 

[psiberzerker]

And it's not socialism because I don't like it, it's socialism because the government seized the means of production and redistributed those means in order to fund said marketing campaign.

If that's anything like what Cash for Clunkers was. They took tax dollars, and told people if you turn in an old car, you'll get a discount on a new car. New cars for everyone! Yay!

A trillion dollars is "A means of production" but the 3 major automakers aren't? They didn't seize any private property, and wealth distribution isn't socialism. Socialism (Ideally) is No Wealth.

 

[BotanyBoy]

A trillion dollars is "A means of production" but the 3 major automakers aren't?

Yes.....money is a means of production, nobody produces much of anything without it.

I didn't say they weren't.

They didn't seize any private property,

Yes they did, it was a trillion dollars.

Do you not understand that was the private property of the various citizens before the government took it?

and wealth distribution isn't socialism.

When the government does it, it is...because the definition of socialism.

Socialism (Ideally) is No Wealth.

No it's not, stop making up bullshit definitions for the word.