in training and i made a mistake

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

This man is being emotionally abusive and fucking with your head.

Oh fucking please.

I have had it up to here with dominants being called emotianally abusive for being and doing what they are supposed to do...

which is take control of and discipline their submissives.

This woman is in training for god's sake. She asked for what she got, and IMHO her dom is right on the money.

you need to think about the way you talked to me and you need to think about your behavior. He went on to say that neither one of those will ever be tolerated again

Hang on to your ass.

You are in for quite a ride.

~anelize
edited after i read the rest of the thread LOL

 

[incubus'_sub]

This problem sounds a bit too "Jerry Springer" to me, if you know what I mean. She says she submits to him all the time but has been in training for 1 week only & he hasn't spoken to her for all of that time. At the same time he is usually kind & caring which suggests that the basic relationship is not a new one. Nope, not buying into this one.

Good advice has been offered. Let's hope she's listening to all of you better than she listened to him.

 

[Netzach]

how about aware can we add that to the lineup?

If you don't know the parameters, punishing a person for stepping outside them is a way to make them totally insane.

personally I don't care if M wants to rail about work and call them a bunch of wicked cocksuckers till he's blue in the face (although cursing me out? I'd sure love to know why...) because that's pretty standard adult human behavior and I am secure enough not to take it personally.

If I think he's having anger management issues, then there might be a discussion of proper venting. And if *I* don't want to have to listen to him bitch and vent, THAT is when I tell him to get his face out my ass, kick him out the door and MAKE him hang with his friends, go to his equivalent of a bachelorette and tell his peers how crappy his life is, not his Mistress.

But that's just my take on it and what I do and how I run my expectations. I tend to make them fairly easy to meet, and I tend to be pleased more often than not.

 

[Guest]

what i question is not speaking with her for a week.

that is not a punishment in my book. If it is a punishment, and I was the dom who wanted to be with this woman, it would be a punishment to me just as much as her.

I see it as abusive to do that to someone.

If my sub did something similar, i would let her finish venting. I'd calmly take a deep breath to ensure I wasn't angry. Then I'd explain to her what she did wrong and tell her what the punishment would be.

Maybe the punishment would be not speaking to anyone unless spoken to for the rest of the night together, or maybe a spanking, hell even washing her mouth out with soap, I'm not sure just sitting here without hearing what was actually said...But what I am sure of is that I would not send her home telling her not to call me unless I called her, then not call for a week.

Yes..it IS a punishment..It may seem to be excessive in the eyes of some..But that is a question that she will have to resolve for herself.
And it might not be ALL of the punishment that her PYL has in mind either.
Abusive??? That is just not a good road to start down...Keep in mind that almost everything that gets mentioned on this board, is considered to be either mental, or physical, abuse by the majority of the outside (vanilla) world.
Too extreme..Now that one I might give you.. Not because of anything other than the amount of time that this pyl has actually been in training. But ..That would be only an expression of my opinion.

I'll take a stab at mindreading here..I would hazard a guess that her PYL had some though along the lines; that a short lack of communication would reinforce the idea that a certain respect is required of her.
And I will throw in this much.
I have explained to pyls for years that there is a way to say just about ANYTHING.
But yelling, and "being bitchy", and snapping at me, etc etc etc... Is NOT the way to do it.
It isn't cute, it isn't endearing, and as far as I am concerned, it just isn't fewking allowed. Or tolerated. And it WILL be punished.
You would have to go pretty far to find something that will get you a faster negative response from me.
On a good day I will walk away.
Because a response out of immediate anger isn't the correct way to do things either.

However... Given the short time that the two have been involved, and the obvious problems that this has caused, I make this suggestion.
She should sit down with her PYL and talk to him.
(See above -- a way to say ANYTHING)
And she should tell him that the period without communication is more than she can handle at the moment.
Perhaps more than she can handle at all.
Not dump the whole thing because of it ..At least not immediately.
PYLs, like pyls, have an adaptive period to any relationship.

 

[Penalt]

Okay, this may be waaaay out of line for me but I will say one thing about the entire subject. From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: 3train
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French trainer, from Old French, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin traginare; akin to Latin trahere to draw


3 a : to form by instruction, discipline, or drill b : to teach so as to make fit, qualified, or proficient

 

[dolf]

the punishment MAY seem excessive to some....but we didn't see the degree of the offence!
perhaps it was one of those blow ups where most people would have just walked away and a weeks ignoring is actually pretty mild?
in a non 24/7 relationship a week between speaking isn't really that long anyway *shrug* and if she weren't feeling so guilty it's unlikely that it would have been that upsetting.
giving her a week to really think about her actions is obviously teaching her a lot!
xx

 

[NCShin]

Training in D/s (and to a lesser degree life) is based on positive reinforcement for good things, and negative reinforcement for bad things. Neither can be done without contact.

Since this training is only a week old, that means that what? 98% of it has been done without any contact at all.

So far you’ve learned not to speak to your PYL in a bitchy tone. This has taken a weeks time. Would you have learned the same lesson in 1 day of not speaking with him? Could you have learned 6 more things in the week that was spent on this had you been in contact with him?

Will all of you punishments last weeks when the same thing could have been learned in hours? He’s withheld communication. What might he withhold next time? If not speaking to you was not the punishment, then what was it?


The punishment is still to come. Then what purpose could a person have for cutting communication off from another person if it was not to punish. It’s not punishment so there must be some other reason. As I sit here I am trying to find a good reason, a constructive reason other than punishment. I can not. (though I can think of many bad reasons, and abusive reasons)

Honestly trying to come up with a reason, and I would like to hear some other’s on this, I’m sure there must be some out there.

What I come up with is this….

He wanted to show her that he can “cut her off” and do without her at a whim. He wanted her to feel badly about what she did (which is fine) but he wanted it to fester. He wanted it to grow in her as a way to use that empty “numb” feeling against her in the future. She felt abandoned, and he wanted that. He did show her who is in control, but in my opinion he did so in a manipulative way. That, I still think is abusive. I guess I disagree with the majority of you.

 

[dolf]

"timeout" has it's place in training...in any animal.
if my dog growled at me he'd get time out.
if my kids answer me back they get time out.
obviously an adult needs longer than 30 minutes but it's the same idea. if she made him angry and he needs to take that amount of time before deal with her calmly then this is the smartest route to take.

perhaps her behaviour was bad enough to deserve being abandoned? i'm sure that if someone i'd only been seeing for a week blew up at me like that you wouldn't see me for dust.
perhaps he needs to seriously consider if he wants to continue training someone so difficult? it's not a task everyone is up to!

well, we all have a right to our own opinions hon
xx

 

[Nackereia]

This problem sounds a bit too "Jerry Springer" to me, if you know what I mean. She says she submits to him all the time but has been in training for 1 week only & he hasn't spoken to her for all of that time. At the same time he is usually kind & caring which suggests that the basic relationship is not a new one. Nope, not buying into this one.

Good advice has been offered. Let's hope she's listening to all of you better than she listened to him.

I agree with you :$

 

[Kajira Callista]

Training in D/s (and to a lesser degree life) is based on positive reinforcement for good things, and negative reinforcement for bad things. Neither can be done without contact.

Since this training is only a week old, that means that what? 98% of it has been done without any contact at all.

So far you’ve learned not to speak to your PYL in a bitchy tone. This has taken a weeks time. Would you have learned the same lesson in 1 day of not speaking with him? Could you have learned 6 more things in the week that was spent on this had you been in contact with him?

Will all of you punishments last weeks when the same thing could have been learned in hours? He’s withheld communication. What might he withhold next time? If not speaking to you was not the punishment, then what was it?


The punishment is still to come. Then what purpose could a person have for cutting communication off from another person if it was not to punish. It’s not punishment so there must be some other reason. As I sit here I am trying to find a good reason, a constructive reason other than punishment. I can not. (though I can think of many bad reasons, and abusive reasons)

Honestly trying to come up with a reason, and I would like to hear some other’s on this, I’m sure there must be some out there.

What I come up with is this….

He wanted to show her that he can “cut her off” and do without her at a whim. He wanted her to feel badly about what she did (which is fine) but he wanted it to fester. He wanted it to grow in her as a way to use that empty “numb” feeling against her in the future. She felt abandoned, and he wanted that. He did show her who is in control, but in my opinion he did so in a manipulative way. That, I still think is abusive. I guess I disagree with the majority of you.

He did not abandon her. He told her he would call her...and he did, when he was ready to or thought she learned from what he did. Abandonment would be just hanging up the phone and refusing to answer if she called. She knew what she was doing was wrong from the first word. I do believe that someplace she said he had warned her before this incident, and did warn her more then once during the convo to cool it. She knew she was being punished and accepted that and understood why. She was to see him last evening and they were to discuss what she learned from it all to see if any further punishment was needed. I dunno but this guy sounds on the ball to me, i don't see anything abusive happening here, and i don't see the girl distraught or upset by it... besides the fact that she feels badly for doing something wrong, which in my opinion is a very normal reaction for a submissive, and it means she learned something.

 

[Pure]

This whole thing reminds me of when a kid is forced to apologize or suddenlly feels they'd better (or ???). It doesn't mean much.

Also, what does this have to do with 'sub training.' Some people mistreat and piss off ms. m, who then meets another (not involved) and yells at him, gives attitude etc. Would not handling such situations be 'life skills' or 'how to keep your friends' training?

The Master's period of non-contact may be saying 'get it together.' That does not appear terribly abusive.

 

[NCShin]

This whole thing reminds me of when a kid is forced to apologize or suddenlly feels they'd better (or ???). It doesn't mean much.

Also, what does this have to do with 'sub training.' Some people mistreat and piss off ms. m, who then meets another (not involved) and yells at him, gives attitude etc. Would not handling such situations be 'life skills' or 'how to keep your friends' training?

The Master's period of non-contact may be saying 'get it together.' That does not appear terribly abusive.

Wouldn't you have made it clear then what that time was supposed to be for?

 

[Pure]

Hi NCS


I, Pure said,

//Would not handling such situations be 'life skills' or 'how to keep your friends' training?

The Master's period of non-contact may be saying 'get it together.' That does not appear terribly abusive./
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You responded NCS: Wouldn't you have made it clear then what that time was supposed to be for?

We don't know the facts. We don't know what mutual agreements were made. We don't know about any promises on his part (except perhaps, for "I'll call").

Ergo, we don't know if he's under any obligation qua 'dom.'

If I'm on a second date with someone and she has trouble with the Coke machine, swears and kicks it, then starts in on me, I can well see saying "Take a week. Think about it. I'll call you." And my call might simply be to say, "Have a good life."

The nature of the problem is abundantly clear to her and him. No explanation is necessary. But for his 'I'll call you,' he may well owe her nothing other than closing the door behind her.

As far as I can see, you and others are assuming things about the 'training' committment. Your analysis about reinforcement would be appropriate if he's a special ed. teacher in a classroom for the 'behaviorally challenged,' and she's a sociallly unskilled 10 year old.

But this is not to say your suggestions are wrong, simply that too little is known. I have no idea if your approach is appropriate or would 'work.'

Regards,
J.

 

[Shadowsdream]

He did not abandon her. He told her he would call her...and he did, when he was ready to or thought she learned from what he did. Abandonment would be just hanging up the phone and refusing to answer if she called. She knew what she was doing was wrong from the first word. I do believe that someplace she said he had warned her before this incident, and did warn her more then once during the convo to cool it. She knew she was being punished and accepted that and understood why. She was to see him last evening and they were to discuss what she learned from it all to see if any further punishment was needed. I dunno but this guy sounds on the ball to me, i don't see anything abusive happening here, and i don't see the girl distraught or upset by it... besides the fact that she feels badly for doing something wrong, which in my opinion is a very normal reaction for a submissive, and it means she learned something.

Agreed

No day in the life of My trainees is bad enough that I will tolerate yelling or disrespect aimed at Myself. There are much better ways to get the point across that submission "in the moment" will be difficult or impossible.

I suppose you can put Me in the abusive category if My way is to abrasive but one such incidence in a new trainiees journey and My time out "don't call Me" would most likely be permanent.

 

[sunfox]

Ergo, we don't know if he's under any obligation qua 'dom.'

It's so sexy when you use 'Ergo' in a sentence, Pure.

I've read this one since the inception of the thread, and honestly, I still don't really feel like enough's been clarified about the situation to make a decision on it.

/If/ he hadn't said he'd call when he wanted to speak to her, I'd have to agree with NCShin that the punishment was a bit excessive in feel, at least for me. I wouldn't have felt abandoned, but I would have felt sufficiently annoyed by being, as dolf's example goes , put into a dog crate and ignored like a puppy that's piddled on a shoe instead of talked to about my transgression like an adult within a far shorter time period, that I would have felt I'd put my trust into the wrong person.

But to continue to pick on dolf (nothing personal, I swear.. I just found a lot to go on in your post!).. I don't think I'd term someone who's just starting to learn as difficult, just because she freaked out. BDSM is largely in the mind, and pressure there as well as pressure from outside influences could easily make a new sub lose it in a really non-pretty way.

All in all, it seems a counterproductive method to me, but hey, to each their own. She doesn't seem upset beyond what one would be for disappointing one's PYL, so it all seems a moot point.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Agreed

No day in the life of My trainees is bad enough that I will tolerate yelling or disrespect aimed at Myself. There are much better ways to get the point across that submission "in the moment" will be difficult or impossible.

I suppose you can put Me in the abusive category if My way is to abrasive but one such incidence in a new trainiees journey and My time out "don't call Me" would most likely be permanent.

see if i had done what she did thats what i would have expected...the permanent part. but knowing that comes with training and knowing that if you do it again its done forever. thats why i think he really did do the right thing...because im pretty damned sure she isnt gonna do it again.

 

[bytor2112]

I just started my training 1 week ago today and i have already made some huge mistakes. It almost costed me the whole relationship. See, I became very testy with him and I wouldn't listen and I gave him alot of attitude because I had a really bad day at work. I took out my frustrations out on him verbally. He was so surprised that I acted like that. This happened last Tuesday and he wouldn't speak to me until yesterday. He is still very angry with me and he told me I will be punished for what I have done. Any advice?

find a REAL man..who accepts you as an equal and doesn't control your life...

 

[Miss Diva]

Ok I think we all agree on one thing. We each have different PYL /pyl relationships.

My PYL read the thread and he thought it was excessive however he did add that each PYL /pyl relationship is different and all depends on the negotiated parameters.

Some of PYL /pyl may feel that our PYL /pyl relationship is loose but we feel comfortable with it.

So to Michelina, if you are comfortable in it then so be it and enjoy it.

 

[Liana26]

Well don't leave us hanging. What was the outcome? Are you two still together?

 

[~hellbaby~]

I honestly have to ask- if you don't know much about how D/s works WHY are you subbing to him? Why not spend time getting yoru feet under you, getting some knowledge and wisdom, THEN deal with a real time D/s thing?
____________________________________________________

I put my two Lincolns on learning a lil about what she is doing and who with before she does it.pardon the cliche but you would not jump into a pool.yadda yadda. How can you submit if you do not know what it entails. For all she knows,which she admits is nothing this guy may be bad news.Most people I have spoken with, when they get that curiosity about D/s,ask questions and gain self knowledge before entering a relationship.Just my own opinion,my experience may not be vast but I sure as hell took my time to know what I was getting into before I did.

 

[blue kat]

From michelina's other thread

valuable lesson
Hello. I still haven't heard anything from him. I have left messages asking for his forgiveness. I have decided to give it one week to see if I hear from him. If in one week, I don't hear from him, I will assume the relationship is over. Honestly, I hope the relationship isn't over. I hope he does call. All I can say is that I have learned a very valuable lesson. This is one lesson I will never forget.

Thank you to all of you that had responded to my posts. I have read all of the posts and have taken many into consideration. I have learned alot on this website and I am glad that I came here.
Will see what happens. Either our relationship will continue or I will be looking for a new relationship. I feel I have done everything that I possibly can to show him how sorry I am. I know I was wrong. I am admitting it. I know I will be punished for it and I know never to do it again.



Questions for you, m, if you don't mind answering.

1. When you got together with him, did you discuss punishment? IE, what punishment would go with the transgression, and to what degree?

2. Did he *ever* contact you in this time period since you're transgression? You said back on the 30th that you would be seeing him that night. Then you said in the bit quoted above you hadn't heard from him.

If you did discuss transgressions/punishments, is his behavior out of line with what you discussed? It sounds almost as if he's kind of making up the punishment as he goes along and not talking to you about it. Yes, you screwed up, but dammit, you've apologized and it seems as if he's gone a little overboard. Maybe it's just my touchy/feely style of dominance, but even when I'm disciplining, I still check in and be sure the pyl is still alive. I don't care if they're uncomfortable, thats the point of punishment, but totally ignoring them is wrong, IMO.

Now then I have ended relationships because of discipline issues. I don't want to spend my time with a pyl playing the Bad Cop. But never on the first offense (unless it was really bad, the one time I did, it was because I ran into him and his other Domme at a PEP meeting.) and never without telling the person why. Dropping you like this seem to fall under the "cruel and unusual punishment" thing.

It sounds as if this relationship may be over, what you may want to do in the future is negotiate how a similar situation will be handled. I'm not saying you're going to go off doing the same to another PYL, I'm saying, ask what their discipline style is so you know what to expect. That way, if "starving" is their punishment of choice, it won't be such a surprise. (Starving being denying you of their presence.)

 

[michelina]

I was suppose to meet him, but he never called that evening and he hasnt called as of yet. Maybe this is the punishment by no communication and maybe he as ended the whole thing.

I am not sure. At this point, only time will tell.

 

[LadyG]

Have you tried to make any contact with him?

 

[michelina]

yes I have. By email and by phone.

 

[LadyG]

yes I have. By email and by phone.

How long have you known him/been involved in total?