If Hitler was killed earlier, would other germans have completed the Final Solution?
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shadowsource
A Flash In The Pain
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The Pope fucked up, no question
I, a former altar boy, have no doubt that Pius XII was very sympathetic to Hitler out of anti-communist opportunism and anti-Semitism. Lots of German Catholics supported Hitler at first, though many rather quickly turned against him (Klaus Von Stauffenberg, the bunker bomber, was one of these, from the extremely Catholic city of Bamberg). The Pope ever after was trying to balance his own antipathy toward Stalin, toward communism, toward workers & peasants, and toward the Jews against his need to protect German Catholics, mollify the Allies, and keep the church's hands deniably clean. There is no doubt that the Church helped lots of Odessa Nazis escape through Italy and on to Latin America once the war was over, and this confirms some pretty active, hideous sympathies. Hey, the Vatican bank was up to its ears in funding Latin American Death Squads with the CIA in the 70s and 80s.
The fact the the Jewish Establishment and the Church want to make nice doesn't mean the Church didn't do terrible things. Insitutions have theior own prerogatives. The truth here is pretty bad, and plenty of Catholics have tried to atone for it.
But that quote was total crap. Tood, think hard: Did you learn it at Bob Jones U?
I, a former altar boy, have no doubt that Pius XII was very sympathetic to Hitler out of anti-communist opportunism and anti-Semitism. Lots of German Catholics supported Hitler at first, though many rather quickly turned against him (Klaus Von Stauffenberg, the bunker bomber, was one of these, from the extremely Catholic city of Bamberg). The Pope ever after was trying to balance his own antipathy toward Stalin, toward communism, toward workers & peasants, and toward the Jews against his need to protect German Catholics, mollify the Allies, and keep the church's hands deniably clean. There is no doubt that the Church helped lots of Odessa Nazis escape through Italy and on to Latin America once the war was over, and this confirms some pretty active, hideous sympathies. Hey, the Vatican bank was up to its ears in funding Latin American Death Squads with the CIA in the 70s and 80s.
The fact the the Jewish Establishment and the Church want to make nice doesn't mean the Church didn't do terrible things. Insitutions have theior own prerogatives. The truth here is pretty bad, and plenty of Catholics have tried to atone for it.
But that quote was total crap. Tood, think hard: Did you learn it at Bob Jones U?
Re: Re: The Pope fucked up, no question
Actually I was first Told of it and inquired and acquired the manuscript while I was a devote practicing Atheist. I hadn't read it since swtiching to xtianity. But the thread popped it in my mind again.
So now with a descrepancy with dates and authors I am going to have to go and visit the local priest and pose some questions.
Also I wouldn't go to BJU if you paid my tuition.
lavender said:
Actually I was first Told of it and inquired and acquired the manuscript while I was a devote practicing Atheist. I hadn't read it since swtiching to xtianity. But the thread popped it in my mind again.
So now with a descrepancy with dates and authors I am going to have to go and visit the local priest and pose some questions.
Also I wouldn't go to BJU if you paid my tuition.
Re: Sure sure Todd
that would be nothing that your familar with
Siren said:this is not the first time you have been irresponsible with your information posted.....
otherwise this might fly,
as it is, it appears as if it was another attention getting attempt by you.
that would be nothing that your familar with
KillerMuffin
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I cannot help but conclude that Todd supports Hitler's ideals and the Final Solution. Otherwise he wouldn't be taking off on the tanget he is, which is to find things that saint the beast and argue that Hitler was victorious in God's eyes. Don't PM me Todd. Say it in another thread. This one is regarding a very interesting historical what-if that a lot of people have speculated on.
If time travel were invented, would it help to go back and kill Hitler? Or would it make no difference? Should the Allies have permitted that plot to assassinate Hitler? The original question?
If time travel were invented, would it help to go back and kill Hitler? Or would it make no difference? Should the Allies have permitted that plot to assassinate Hitler? The original question?
Weird Harold
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KillerMuffin said:
There is a fairly active subgenre of Science Fiction called "Alternate History" where this is a verycommon theme. Nearly very science fiction author who tackles this subject seems to subscribe to the theory that Hitler was only a "tool of fate" and a flawed tool at that.
Almost all of the authors conclude that if almost anyone other than Hitler had taken advantage of the political and anti-semitic climate of Germany in the 1930s we would all be speaking German now, and none of us would be Jewish, Romany, or Slavic.
M
miles
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KillerMuffin
I cannot help but conclude that Todd supports Hitler's ideals and the Final Solution
Jeez, Muffin
I cannot help but conclude that Todd supports Hitler's ideals and the Final Solution
Jeez, Muffin
KillerMuffin said:
Actually while I can't be upset with all of you for being upset with Todd I think you're missing the point as to what Todd was trying to say. Todd, from what I've gathered, is a Protestant. He was posting a quote from Pious, who was pro-nazi, in a cute little attempt to take a pot shot at the catholic church. Despite his claims to the contrary I have to believe that Todd fits rather nicely into the KKK and Bob Jones U. endorsed views of the Catholic church.
Christ, Todd. How is what an idiot like Pious said even vaguely relevant to the question posed?
M
miles
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BJU
Blow Job University?
Blow Job University?
Problem Child
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Ah, Todd.
What a fucking Ninny. It gets harder and harder to even read anything you post, let alone take it seriously.
You post a misquoted statement and reference it to someone who never said it, with no explanation of why you put it up or what argument you were trying to support with it.
And you feel like you are in the political minority on this board? I wonder why? I wonder if it's because after you do things like this people think you are a freeking religious zealot with racist/anti-semitic leanings.
*sigh*
Would the world be a different place if Hitler had been killed sooner?
Who knows...Hitler was definitely the driving force behind the holocaust, so I think if he had been assassinated the holocaust might not have been implemented, or at least it would ended sooner.
One can make an excellent argument that Hitler shortened the war with his numerous military blunders. He initially thought that as long as he had control of the continent that he could live in relative peace with the British, and refrained from attacking them before 1940. If Germany had put more effort into invading and conquering Britain, they would have had real control of the Atlantic and prevented the U.S. from getting onto the continent in 1944.
Likewise, if Hitler hadn't thrown his armies away trying to conquer Russia, he might have been able to hold onto Europe for much, much, longer.
The Germans had superior technology in almost every area except aircraft, and they would have had us beaten in that area as well if the war had gone on another six months. They came out with the Me-262 in the final months of the war, a weapon that could have put them back on an equal footing in the air, but Hitler refused to let it be produced in significant numbers.
I don't believe that Germany would have kept Europe indefinitely, no matter who was in charge. We, the U.S., simply had an overwhelming superiority in production of war material, and there is no way they could have ever overcome that difference.
The interesting question is what would have happened if some other leader had been in charge who didn't make all of Hitler's mistakes, and the Germans had been able to develop the atomic bomb while they were still a viable fighting force.
What a fucking Ninny. It gets harder and harder to even read anything you post, let alone take it seriously.
You post a misquoted statement and reference it to someone who never said it, with no explanation of why you put it up or what argument you were trying to support with it.
And you feel like you are in the political minority on this board? I wonder why? I wonder if it's because after you do things like this people think you are a freeking religious zealot with racist/anti-semitic leanings.
*sigh*
Would the world be a different place if Hitler had been killed sooner?
Who knows...Hitler was definitely the driving force behind the holocaust, so I think if he had been assassinated the holocaust might not have been implemented, or at least it would ended sooner.
One can make an excellent argument that Hitler shortened the war with his numerous military blunders. He initially thought that as long as he had control of the continent that he could live in relative peace with the British, and refrained from attacking them before 1940. If Germany had put more effort into invading and conquering Britain, they would have had real control of the Atlantic and prevented the U.S. from getting onto the continent in 1944.
Likewise, if Hitler hadn't thrown his armies away trying to conquer Russia, he might have been able to hold onto Europe for much, much, longer.
The Germans had superior technology in almost every area except aircraft, and they would have had us beaten in that area as well if the war had gone on another six months. They came out with the Me-262 in the final months of the war, a weapon that could have put them back on an equal footing in the air, but Hitler refused to let it be produced in significant numbers.
I don't believe that Germany would have kept Europe indefinitely, no matter who was in charge. We, the U.S., simply had an overwhelming superiority in production of war material, and there is no way they could have ever overcome that difference.
The interesting question is what would have happened if some other leader had been in charge who didn't make all of Hitler's mistakes, and the Germans had been able to develop the atomic bomb while they were still a viable fighting force.
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Pope Pius was recently nominated for canonization by John Paul II, which caused quite an uproar in Israel because Pius did not come out forcefully against the genocide and allegedly turned away Italian Jews who sought help from the Vatican. At no point during the controversy did I hear anyone repeat the quote Todd posted, and I think had Pius said something like that there's no way the current Pope would have nominated him. Because, after all, Germany started the war by invading Poland, John Paul's country, and I don't think Hitler was trying to "defend Christianity" when he launched the Blitzkrieg. Or when he overran France and Belgium. Or bombed London. Pius may have feared and hated Bolshevik Russia, but I don't think that would have been enough for him to eulogize Hitler.
Would the Final Solution have continued had Hitler died? It depends on who took over. HBO has a movie called "Conspiracy" that details the Wannsee Conference, which was a meeting of German army and civilian leaders who discussed the logistics of the Final Solution. The movie (there was a German version made of it decades ago) is based largely on a transcript of the meeting that was found in the records of one of the officers who attended. The decision to exterminate the Jews may have come from Hitler, but he was far from the only Nazi who fervently believed in it.
The senior officer at the Wannsee meeting, Reinhard Heydrich, was allegedly Hitler's choice to succeed him. Had Hitler died and Heydrich taken control, the Final Solution would certainly have continued. Had Goering taken over (he was officially next in line) the killing probably would have continued, because the bureacracy and infrastructure was in place, and Goering probably wouldn't have cared enough to stop it. He was far more concerned with his selfish pleasures than anything else. Himmler would have continued it. Goebbels would have.
Had Hitler been assassinated, by the Stauffenberg group, for example, they may well have stopped the killing. But for practical reasons more than humanitarian. Arresting, transporting, guarding, and killing the Jews used up enormous resources, resources that Germany didn't have to spare. The group that tried to kill Hitler hoped to make a separate peace with the Allies and then throw everything against the Russians. Probably they would have been more concerned with stopping the Red Army instead of killing Jews.
Strong as Germany was, they ultimately had no chance. They had to deal with the Allies on the Western Front, with the industrial might of the United States, and on the Eastern Front they had the Russians, who vastly outnumbered the Germans, and were headed by dicatorship as ruthless and cruel as the Nazis. The moment the first German boot crossed the Polish frontier, the Third Reich was doomed.
Would the Final Solution have continued had Hitler died? It depends on who took over. HBO has a movie called "Conspiracy" that details the Wannsee Conference, which was a meeting of German army and civilian leaders who discussed the logistics of the Final Solution. The movie (there was a German version made of it decades ago) is based largely on a transcript of the meeting that was found in the records of one of the officers who attended. The decision to exterminate the Jews may have come from Hitler, but he was far from the only Nazi who fervently believed in it.
The senior officer at the Wannsee meeting, Reinhard Heydrich, was allegedly Hitler's choice to succeed him. Had Hitler died and Heydrich taken control, the Final Solution would certainly have continued. Had Goering taken over (he was officially next in line) the killing probably would have continued, because the bureacracy and infrastructure was in place, and Goering probably wouldn't have cared enough to stop it. He was far more concerned with his selfish pleasures than anything else. Himmler would have continued it. Goebbels would have.
Had Hitler been assassinated, by the Stauffenberg group, for example, they may well have stopped the killing. But for practical reasons more than humanitarian. Arresting, transporting, guarding, and killing the Jews used up enormous resources, resources that Germany didn't have to spare. The group that tried to kill Hitler hoped to make a separate peace with the Allies and then throw everything against the Russians. Probably they would have been more concerned with stopping the Red Army instead of killing Jews.
Strong as Germany was, they ultimately had no chance. They had to deal with the Allies on the Western Front, with the industrial might of the United States, and on the Eastern Front they had the Russians, who vastly outnumbered the Germans, and were headed by dicatorship as ruthless and cruel as the Nazis. The moment the first German boot crossed the Polish frontier, the Third Reich was doomed.
Cheyenne
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Re: Dont be such an asshole
Watch out, you'll get asked if you need coffee to get back to being a "nice person," Siren.
LOL Gee, I just told him to cut the crap this morning on another thread and got my head bit off.Siren said:You either post it
or
stop wasting our time with your crap.
Watch out, you'll get asked if you need coffee to get back to being a "nice person," Siren.
Cheyenne
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Re: Without Hitler...
Ditto. I have noticed the same thing. I've also noticed that it is painful for my German relatives to visit some of the exhibits. They bring back horrible memories of a war they wish had never happened.shadowsource said:
KillerMuffin
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Todd's always tossing wild, groundless political and theological fantasy that has no proof, evidence, nor basis in reality. I just figured I'd toss one back his way for a change. *shrugs* He can take it or leave it.
Shuttin up now.
Shuttin up now.
rambling man
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I did not read any of the 44 posts answering this, so the point may have been made earlier...if so, please whip me
When Stalin died (or was killed) the first thing that happened was that they killed Beria, his secret police head, then opted to end the terror, at least Stalin style, forever. I believe that a leader like Stalin or Hitler weeds out the free thinkers and those with will. It takes a certain amount of that to direct such large scale atrocities. If Hitler had fallen to one of his assassination attempts, the killings would have stopped and the military leaders would have moved the SS men guarding the camps to the front..eventually the more fanatical would have been purged somehow, because they frightened most of the other German leaders
When Stalin died (or was killed) the first thing that happened was that they killed Beria, his secret police head, then opted to end the terror, at least Stalin style, forever. I believe that a leader like Stalin or Hitler weeds out the free thinkers and those with will. It takes a certain amount of that to direct such large scale atrocities. If Hitler had fallen to one of his assassination attempts, the killings would have stopped and the military leaders would have moved the SS men guarding the camps to the front..eventually the more fanatical would have been purged somehow, because they frightened most of the other German leaders
TaffyJ
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definitely not an expert, but...
Wasn't Hitler against ALL forms of organized religion? I may be wrong, and correct me if I am, but if he was against all religion, why would any church support him, Todd?
I get tired of people pulling cheap shots at my church without doing their research first. Yeah, the Catholic church has taken part in some bad things over the centuries, but guess what? The church is made up of HUMANS, who could be devious villians, or good people who make foolish mistakes. Until God himself comes back down to guide us personally, we're all going to have to deal with human error in our institutions, be they religious or otherwise. So, before anyone goes talking bad about somebody else's religion, we should think of the faults our own church has made.
What, your church or your minister hasn't made any mistakes? Probably because your church is small enough to not deal with very many people. Try dealing with millions of people all over the world for a few thousand years and see if everything still goes smoothly.
To correct Todd's error, you can't "become a member" of the Catholic church, just to look at books, then "un-become a member" when you're done. It takes at least a year to become Catholic, and you don't have to be Catholic to read books. Anyone can go to a Catholic bookstore and buy/read all you want. There aren't any "secret" books that only Catholics can read. Maybe in the Vatican, but those would be so technical as to be of no interest anyway.
And being an altarboy doesn't educate you about church history. You can take it upon yourself to learn church history, but all they teach altarboys is how to serve properly during mass. There's no deep historical education, there. My husband was an altarboy for 14 years and all they taught him about was incense, candles, and how to hold books for the priest (sp?) to read from.
To the matter of this thread, I think Nazi Germany would have eventually lost anyway, sooner or later. Hitler just made it sooner, thank goodness.
Flame if you must.
Wasn't Hitler against ALL forms of organized religion? I may be wrong, and correct me if I am, but if he was against all religion, why would any church support him, Todd?
I get tired of people pulling cheap shots at my church without doing their research first. Yeah, the Catholic church has taken part in some bad things over the centuries, but guess what? The church is made up of HUMANS, who could be devious villians, or good people who make foolish mistakes. Until God himself comes back down to guide us personally, we're all going to have to deal with human error in our institutions, be they religious or otherwise. So, before anyone goes talking bad about somebody else's religion, we should think of the faults our own church has made.
What, your church or your minister hasn't made any mistakes? Probably because your church is small enough to not deal with very many people. Try dealing with millions of people all over the world for a few thousand years and see if everything still goes smoothly.
To correct Todd's error, you can't "become a member" of the Catholic church, just to look at books, then "un-become a member" when you're done. It takes at least a year to become Catholic, and you don't have to be Catholic to read books. Anyone can go to a Catholic bookstore and buy/read all you want. There aren't any "secret" books that only Catholics can read. Maybe in the Vatican, but those would be so technical as to be of no interest anyway.
And being an altarboy doesn't educate you about church history. You can take it upon yourself to learn church history, but all they teach altarboys is how to serve properly during mass. There's no deep historical education, there. My husband was an altarboy for 14 years and all they taught him about was incense, candles, and how to hold books for the priest (sp?) to read from.
To the matter of this thread, I think Nazi Germany would have eventually lost anyway, sooner or later. Hitler just made it sooner, thank goodness.
Flame if you must.
april-wine
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http://www.mcgill.pvt.k12.al.us/jerryd/cathmob.htm
website that came up when i searched on the net for
website that came up when i searched on the net for
rambling man
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The Vatican has "Secret" Archives that are only for registered scholars who are affiliated with institutions of research...maybe thats what he's talking about..although I imagine that researchers from say, SMU would be welcome, too
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