If Hitler was killed earlier, would other germans have completed the Final Solution?
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Blackbich
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In MHO, no. Hitler was a very cunning, manipulator. I think if he had been killed earlier in the war, there could have been less casualties because it would have ended with him.
I think, yes, there were some who backed Hitler's plot who were disappointed when it ended. These same idiots were more than willing to cash in on the Jewish people's downfall. BTW, my mom's friend who is French, was taken to a concentration camp and her family's valuables stolen as well. It definitely wasn't just a Jewish thing although they got the brunt of it.
KillerMuffin
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It all depends on what is earlier. Had Rommel ever gained political power in Germany, they would not have lost. Rommel was unarguably the best tactician in all of World War 2, bar none. Hitler was afraid of Rommel and first exiled him to the useless Afrikacorps. Later, when Rommel was put in charge of Normandy, he successfully held the allies off. He was committed to the ideals of the Reich and firmly believed that what he was doing was right. The consensus of world war 2 scholars is that any time after 1939, killing Hitler would have been the worst thing that could have happened as the Axis would have won the war because the Generals that Hitler surpressed in his madness would have come to power. Pre-1939, that would be different. There probably would not have been the death camps of jews, though no one could say for sure since miserably people do heinous things to make themselves feel better. World War 2 began in Versailles in June of 1918 when the Allies inflicted the reparations on Germany to the extent that a wheelbarrow full of deutchmarks could not purchase a loaf of bread. After 1939 the person who is mostly responsible for the defeat of Germany is Hitler himself. Before that, it's anyone's best guess. So no, I don't think killing Hitler would have done a damned thing to save anyone. Whose to say how a Hitlerless Reich would have treated creatures like Eichmann?
registered "^^"
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Hitler
was a jerk. If germany had gotten rid of him, the war would have had a much different outcome.
was a jerk. If germany had gotten rid of him, the war would have had a much different outcome.
Holocaust or 20th Century Inqusition
Pope Pius XII
"Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity. It is therefore understandable that words cannot be found to lament over his death, when so many were found to exalt his life. Over his mortal remains stands his victorious moral, with the palm of the matyr, God gives Hitler the the laurels of victory."
Pope Pius XII
"Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity. It is therefore understandable that words cannot be found to lament over his death, when so many were found to exalt his life. Over his mortal remains stands his victorious moral, with the palm of the matyr, God gives Hitler the the laurels of victory."
G
Guest
Guest
Todd, I seriously doubt that statement is true considering many Catholics were sent to concentration camps during WWII.
I am not going to hand type out a 500+ page mauscript
I am just confirming what the board has always said about christians, we are evil war mongering, bent on destroying the world.
So why are you so pissed that I post something that every one has already said is true on every other Inquistion thread, crusades thread and every genmearl christians are bad people thread.
I am just confirming what the board has always said about christians, we are evil war mongering, bent on destroying the world.
So why are you so pissed that I post something that every one has already said is true on every other Inquistion thread, crusades thread and every genmearl christians are bad people thread.
shadowsource
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Without Hitler...
...the Nazis would have crumbled in internecine struggles for power. Don't forget Killer Muffin, that Rudolf Hess was Hitler's Vice-Chancellor, and he was just clever enough to parachute into Scotland without permission to convince the right-wing ruling class Brits to pullout of the war (fat chance, as it happened, once Dunkirk passed). Some of Hitler's aides were very competent to a point, but many were gross pig psychos and only Hitler could hold them all together. I don't believe they would have followed Rommel.
The Stauffenberg plot against Hitler, incidentally, was way more interesting then we've generally been led to believe. Backed my many top generals, the plot's blueprint/proclamation called for the arrest of all SS, Gestapo, gauleiters, Waffen SS, etc. and the processing for FREEDOM of all camp inmates, which the plotters referred to as "political prisoners." They were indeed people of conscience and honor, not just Germans trying to get a better deal from the Allies. They deserve a better place in our memories for having tried; had they succeeded, millions would have lived. In failing, they suffered immensely.
I've been visiting Germany for decades, and the historical markers, references, museum exhibits about WW II and the Holocaust are really visible and enlightening these days. The country has changed a lot and Germans should get significant credit for this. Unlike the Japanese, who are still bent on lying about WW II and what led to it (our own continuing babble about Viet Nam and American crimes is so much more honest, however flawed), the Germans do discuss and consider these things quite regularly.
& Todd: Where'd you get that quote about Pius XII? I know he performed badly, but that sounds a little too slick, eh? And I can't believe John XXIII would have quoted it. Let's see a link to an historical reference!
...the Nazis would have crumbled in internecine struggles for power. Don't forget Killer Muffin, that Rudolf Hess was Hitler's Vice-Chancellor, and he was just clever enough to parachute into Scotland without permission to convince the right-wing ruling class Brits to pullout of the war (fat chance, as it happened, once Dunkirk passed). Some of Hitler's aides were very competent to a point, but many were gross pig psychos and only Hitler could hold them all together. I don't believe they would have followed Rommel.
The Stauffenberg plot against Hitler, incidentally, was way more interesting then we've generally been led to believe. Backed my many top generals, the plot's blueprint/proclamation called for the arrest of all SS, Gestapo, gauleiters, Waffen SS, etc. and the processing for FREEDOM of all camp inmates, which the plotters referred to as "political prisoners." They were indeed people of conscience and honor, not just Germans trying to get a better deal from the Allies. They deserve a better place in our memories for having tried; had they succeeded, millions would have lived. In failing, they suffered immensely.
I've been visiting Germany for decades, and the historical markers, references, museum exhibits about WW II and the Holocaust are really visible and enlightening these days. The country has changed a lot and Germans should get significant credit for this. Unlike the Japanese, who are still bent on lying about WW II and what led to it (our own continuing babble about Viet Nam and American crimes is so much more honest, however flawed), the Germans do discuss and consider these things quite regularly.
& Todd: Where'd you get that quote about Pius XII? I know he performed badly, but that sounds a little too slick, eh? And I can't believe John XXIII would have quoted it. Let's see a link to an historical reference!
M
miles
Guest
There is a lot of interesting info about the Pope during WW II. It looks like the few people who claimed he turned his his back on the Jews and being pro-Nazi have in general been discredited.
Here is a quote and a few links:
The prime minister of Israel, Golda Meir, upon the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958, wrote to the Vatican, "We share in the grief of humanity ... when fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the pope was raised for its victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out about great moral truths. We mourn a great servant of peace.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031600/opl_2455151.html
http://bnaibrith.org/pr/pope90999.html
http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,172811-412,00.shtml
http://www.lewrockwell.com/sobran/sobran50.html
Here is a quote and a few links:
The prime minister of Israel, Golda Meir, upon the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958, wrote to the Vatican, "We share in the grief of humanity ... when fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the pope was raised for its victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out about great moral truths. We mourn a great servant of peace.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031600/opl_2455151.html
http://bnaibrith.org/pr/pope90999.html
http://cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,172811-412,00.shtml
http://www.lewrockwell.com/sobran/sobran50.html
lavender said:
I can't cut and paste a book/manuscript its kinda hard thing to do, without a scanner a paper to electronic interface is kinda hard.
If you want to read the book mauscripot go to the local CAtholic church and ask the Priest for a copy of the "Second Vatican Council" Manuscript. You might have to become a member of the church but it is attainable.
No I do not believe that Hitler was a wonderful flower child of God defending the christain.
M
miles
Guest
Muffin
Good post, KM.
If the Germans had succeeded in killing Hitler, I think the war would have dragged on much longer than it actually did. Hitler's stupid military tactics cost untold numbers of German lives. Regardless of who was in charge, I'll never believe they could have possibly won the war. Their Navy and Luftwaffe was gone, supplies were becoming scarce, and the Allies were bombing Germany back to the Stone Age (which they so deserved). Germany had a superb Army, but unlike them we had what seemed to be an inexhaustible number of soldiers and resources.
By the way, has anyone read "The Greatest Generation" by Tom Brokaw?
It might be my all-time favorite non-fiction. I only wish I had read it while my father was still alive.. On my desk I have a picture of him standing in froint of the bomber he flew in, complete with nose art. If anyone is interested, I'll post it.
Good post, KM.
If the Germans had succeeded in killing Hitler, I think the war would have dragged on much longer than it actually did. Hitler's stupid military tactics cost untold numbers of German lives. Regardless of who was in charge, I'll never believe they could have possibly won the war. Their Navy and Luftwaffe was gone, supplies were becoming scarce, and the Allies were bombing Germany back to the Stone Age (which they so deserved). Germany had a superb Army, but unlike them we had what seemed to be an inexhaustible number of soldiers and resources.
By the way, has anyone read "The Greatest Generation" by Tom Brokaw?
It might be my all-time favorite non-fiction. I only wish I had read it while my father was still alive.. On my desk I have a picture of him standing in froint of the bomber he flew in, complete with nose art. If anyone is interested, I'll post it.
RE: Todd, you disappoint me.
What part of the "Second Vatican Council" Manuscript is not an online source do you not get?
Th homework is done, the the "Second Vatican Council" Manuscript is avaialble from every Catholic Church Priest in North America.
Siren said:
What part of the "Second Vatican Council" Manuscript is not an online source do you not get?
Th homework is done, the the "Second Vatican Council" Manuscript is avaialble from every Catholic Church Priest in North America.
shadowsource
A Flash In The Pain
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Mythmaking
Sure Todd, all the priests carry this one around under their cassocks. Let's all join the church so we can have one, too.
Now I see why you guys enjoy Rush Limbaugh so much. You can just quote HIM!
Sure Todd, all the priests carry this one around under their cassocks. Let's all join the church so we can have one, too.
Now I see why you guys enjoy Rush Limbaugh so much. You can just quote HIM!
Bigdog
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OK, it's put up or shut up time, Todd. Start reading.
http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/
http://www.cin.org/vatiidoc.html
http://www.rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/
http://www.cin.org/vatiidoc.html
Bigdog said:
Both are missing 20-30 speeches, I am reading through to see if they combined them but It's not looking hopeful to find them here. Even his remarks to the open council are highly edited and deleted on each.
I am not a catholic but I had to take mebership inorder to have access to thier library. soon as i got the books I liked I revoked my membership
p_p_man
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For all those who are after Todd's blood...
http://www.vatican.va/
This link is to the Vatican Official Web Site.
I've just spent an hour going through the archives of the Second Vatican Council 1963, 1964 and 1965.
I couldn't find the reference Todd quoted but they're large documents and I could have missed it.
However all the way through the various sections not once was anyone mentioned by name so I doubt if Todd's reference is correct.
Wound us up well though didn't he?
http://www.vatican.va/This link is to the Vatican Official Web Site.
I've just spent an hour going through the archives of the Second Vatican Council 1963, 1964 and 1965.
I couldn't find the reference Todd quoted but they're large documents and I could have missed it.
However all the way through the various sections not once was anyone mentioned by name so I doubt if Todd's reference is correct.
Wound us up well though didn't he?
WriterDom
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http://www.angelfire.com/on/3angels/vaticannazis.html
Let us see, first, how an especially "authorised" personality, Franco, (Catholic dictator of Spain) Knight of the Order of Christ, expressly confirmed the collusion between the Vatican and the Nazis. According to "Reforme," this is what the press of the Spanish dictator published on the 3rd of May 1945, the day of Hitler's death:
"Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity. It is therefore understandable that words cannot be found to lament over his death, when so many were found to exalt his life. Over his mortal remains stands his victorious moral figure. With the palm of the martyr, God gives Hitler the laurels of Victory." (Reforme, 21st July, 1945.)
Let us see, first, how an especially "authorised" personality, Franco, (Catholic dictator of Spain) Knight of the Order of Christ, expressly confirmed the collusion between the Vatican and the Nazis. According to "Reforme," this is what the press of the Spanish dictator published on the 3rd of May 1945, the day of Hitler's death:
"Adolf Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity. It is therefore understandable that words cannot be found to lament over his death, when so many were found to exalt his life. Over his mortal remains stands his victorious moral figure. With the palm of the martyr, God gives Hitler the laurels of Victory." (Reforme, 21st July, 1945.)
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