How Many Martial Artists Do We Have?

[maggot420]

i have a question for the assembled experts. from watching mixed martial arts, my impression is that many of the kicks and blows of classical karate or tae kwon do are just not executable [more than once, perhaps] in a real conflict because of 1) preparation [stance and 'chambering' (positioning) of hands needed], and 2) distance [from the attacker], which has to be three feet, at least. i notice that 'take downs' occur pretty often and pretty quickly (the old wrestler vs. boxer problem).

so would you agree that a martial art without close quarters drill and grappling technique is more for show or aesthetics (like a dance, as it were)? i did see an interesting series of photos of a man--i forget his school-- but he was seated, reading a newspaper at the point of being beset by the attackers. i'm sure you get the point.

what do you recommend, in the martial arts, to solve this problem, if it is one?

I can only speak for myself but martial arts training is intended for self defence, not mixed martial arts tournaments. That is willful combat which we train to avoid at all costs.
However, if you are looking for success in a ring, I would definately recommend learning an art such as judo which is essentially wrestling and grappling. Fighting against other trained individuals is a much different animal.

I should point out that we do study elements of those techniques as well, but our focus is not on winning a fight in a ring, but disabling an attacker very quickly.
Martial art katas for example, could be very nearly described as an aesthetic dance, but only because it's purpose is not perhaps clearly evident.

 

[R. Richard]

i have a question for the assembled experts. from watching mixed martial arts, my impression is that many of the kicks and blows of classical karate or tae kwon do are just not executable [more than once, perhaps] in a real conflict because of 1) preparation [stance and 'chambering' (positioning) of hands needed], and 2) distance [from the attacker], which has to be three feet, at least. i notice that 'take downs' occur pretty often and pretty quickly (the old wrestler vs. boxer problem).

so would you agree that a martial art without close quarters drill and grappling technique is more for show or aesthetics (like a dance, as it were)? i did see an interesting series of photos of a man--i forget his school-- but he was seated, reading a newspaper at the point of being beset by the attackers. i'm sure you get the point.

what do you recommend, in the martial arts, to solve this problem, if it is one?

The problem you are addressing is one that was known and more or less ignored for years. Then Brazilian Ju Jitsu came on the scene and forced the issue to be addressed. BJJ consists almost entirely of ground work. The BJJ guys [mainly the Gracie brothers] and I had several conversations regarding the matter. The answer is that many of the flashy techniques in many of the styles are for 'show not go.' However, the base techniques in most of the martial arts are usable in combat. The BJJ techniques aer powerful in one-on-one combat, but they are damn near useless against multiple attackers [it took me quite a while to get Rorion Gracie to admit this last.] The striking arts are usable against multiple opponents [this last is not theory, R. Richard has a great deal of practical experience in the matter.] After going back to the basics, the striking arts are now usable against BJJ Masters.

The idea that a master can sit in a chair and dispatch multiple opponents is mainly a product of legend and kung-fu movies. However, it is possible to do this last. What is needed is dumb, aggressive individuals who attack the Master one at a time. [Just to beat it to death, it is possible for a trained defender to defeat two attackers each of whom could alone defeat the defender. What is necessary here is to keep the weaker of the two opponents between the stronger of the attackers and the defender. The stronger of the attackers will try to get past the weaker of the defenders and disrupt the weaker of the defenders allowing the defender to dispatch the weaker of the defenders. Meanwhile the stronger of the two attackers arrives off balance and unready for anything except eating the attack of the defender. Again, this is not theory, R. Richard has a great deal of practical experience in the matter.]

 

[Pure]

thanks, magg and rr,

for your comments.

to clarify, magg,

m: I can only speak for myself but martial arts training is intended for self defence, not mixed martial arts tournaments. That is willful combat which we train to avoid at all costs.
However, if you are looking for success in a ring, I would definately recommend learning an art such as judo which is essentially wrestling and grappling. Fighting against other trained individuals is a much different animal.

P: i wasn't thinking of winning in a ring, but surviving a mugging where one is beset in close quarters, i.e. zero physical distance. is this more an akido type situation? judo?

--
PS to rr.

while the photos of the seated man were of a demonstration, the point was that he had to *begin* the defense while seated; he did not remain seated for the whole time; i agree that would be like a spiritual-master movie fantasy.

 

[R. Richard]

P: i wasn't thinking of winning in a ring, but surviving a mugging where one is beset in close quarters, i.e. zero physical distance. is this more an akido type situation? judo?

Judo is a sport. Ju Jitsu is a combat art. If you have to survive a mugging, you need to quickly disable or kill the attacker. Ju Jitsu has the tools, Judo really does not.

Aikido is useful and can even be applied in zero distance situations. However, I prefer to use Aikido prior to an attack, rather then after the attacker has got to zero distance. Some of the Aikido joint locks are quite useful for restraining an attacker. However, you ned to be careful here, many US Aikido classes are for a dance, not self defense.

 

[Pure]

why does one hear hardly anything about jiu jitsu these recent years?

has it been absorbed into any of the larger schools or disciplines?

 

[R. Richard]

why does one hear hardly anything about jiu jitsu these recent years?

has it been absorbed into any of the larger schools or disciplines?

It is a combat art. It is designed to disable or kill an attacker(s). The scumbags don't like to have people trained in that manner.

 

[Pure]

we have a fellow living near our city who says he teaches the hand-to-hand defense/offense techniques of the Russian 'special forces'.... do you think that could be on the level?

 

[maggot420]

for your comments.

to clarify, magg,

m: I can only speak for myself but martial arts training is intended for self defence, not mixed martial arts tournaments. That is willful combat which we train to avoid at all costs.
However, if you are looking for success in a ring, I would definately recommend learning an art such as judo which is essentially wrestling and grappling. Fighting against other trained individuals is a much different animal.

P: i wasn't thinking of winning in a ring, but surviving a mugging where one is beset in close quarters, i.e. zero physical distance. is this more an akido type situation? judo?

--

In the case of a mugging, most of the self-defence techniques we use in kempo karate are designed exactly for this type of scenario. There are many self defence techniques which are learned through katas. The movements of a kata are designed to reflect what you would do if for example someone grabs you from behind. The first movements simulate how you first extract yourself from a choke or stranglehold. The successive movements or strikes then employed are designed to disable your attacker and at the same time increase the distance between you. Ususally the kicks are the last in a series of strikes or movements.
I wouldn't say that one style is better than another. They are all designed for the same thing. Self defence.
In the case of fighting other trained individuals, I find judo to be one of the more difficult styles to fight against because they are so good at close quarter fighting. But against your average mugger, any style can be effective.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

we have a fellow living near our city who says he teaches the hand-to-hand defense/offense techniques of the Russian 'special forces'.... do you think that could be on the level?

I couldn't answer that without a PI giving him a background check

And to answer your other questions, I have a great link back at home that would answer some of this latest discussion baout ground versus striking styles. It's from a person who not only studies hand to hand martial arts, but has military experience, and appears to know when to use fists or a weapon of any sort (right up to artilary )

My school's system runs the gamet from punching and kicking to wrestling, arm, leg and finger locks, to weapons (swords, staffs, spears). It's an all around system. The only thing is, you have to learn a lot before you can see the practical applications for most of what we learn.

High kicks are for flash. Useful kicks are aimed low, like the crotch or knees. If you are aiming a kick above the abdomen, you are either a giant fighting a midget (like me versus Wee Man), or you are aiming too high.

I would say that locks from Akido or Jujitsu could be used in group fights, if you don't go to the ground. Use the locks to hold off one opponant while you deal with others, or takedowns that keep you on your feet to get someone out of the way while you prepare for someone else to move in.

 

[Pure]

probably i'm confusing movie with reality, but is this issue [of close quarters] the one that's shown in "Kill Bill", where the kung fu master insists that she learn to strike a board [beginning] from four inches away [no drawback], not three feet.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I feel I have to add, the best hting to do in case of a mugging is get the hell out of there. Man or woman, the best defence is run away. If they get a grip on you there are millions of moves you can perform to get out of their grasp, and the tecniques should be learned by more people, but after that, just get away. Don't go toe to toe with an attacker unless you abosolutely have to.

On ring fighters:
They are the toughest sons o bitches you will ever meet. One punch from them could easily knock out most people. The punishment they take is almost unhuman. It's not comparable to a real life situation, and most ring fighters wouldn't go ambushing people in the shadows for a few spare bucks. They are too busy in the gym training for their next fight.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

probably i'm confusing movie with reality, but is this issue [of close quarters] the one that's shown in "Kill Bill", where the kung fu master insists that she learn to strike a board [beginning] from four inches away [no drawback], not three feet.

It depends on who you are talking to.

I have an instructor who will tell you to fight in the red zone. Right up next to the oponant and in constant contact with him. He teaches how to feel your oponant attacking instead of waiting for your eyes to tell you he is attacking. I'm not talking about "feeling their auro" I'm talking about being close enough so that when they move you physically feel their body moving to prepare for their attack.

Other schools teach different methods. Karate and Tai Kwon Do teach more from a distance of said three feet. It has a totally different mentality.

I think both are required. You can't fight up close unless you can break that three foot defence. At the same time, you can't be attacked up close if you keep a three foot defence.

Same goes for ground fighting. If you don't prepare for ground fighting you will be unprepared when someone takes you down to the ground. If you train for striking and grappling, you will know better how to keep your feet under you when someone tries to take you down.

 

[R. Richard]

probably i'm confusing movie with reality, but is this issue [of close quarters] the one that's shown in "Kill Bill", where the kung fu master insists that she learn to strike a board [beginning] from four inches away [no drawback], not three feet.

There are two items in Kung-Fu that are rarely used but do exist. They are the 'three inch punch' and the 'one inch punch.' They are basically tricks, but can be used in some very close quarters situtations.

 

[R. Richard]

we have a fellow living near our city who says he teaches the hand-to-hand defense/offense techniques of the Russian 'special forces'.... do you think that could be on the level?

It may be what he was taught, but the quality of Russian Spetsnaz training varies a great deal. A few of the trainers are top notch, a few of them are total fakes.

One of the problems with Spetsnaz training as regards punching is that the Spetsnaz training emphasizes number of punches delivered, rather than force of punches delivered. If you can get inside on a Spetsnaz guy, you can load up a finishing punch while he tries to flurry you to death. [Note: the better Spetsnaz instructors also emphasize grappling, including some jiu jitsu techniques that are never taught to civilians.]

 

[R. Richard]

I feel I have to add, the best hting to do in case of a mugging is get the hell out of there. Man or woman, the best defence is run away. If they get a grip on you there are millions of moves you can perform to get out of their grasp, and the tecniques should be learned by more people, but after that, just get away. Don't go toe to toe with an attacker unless you abosolutely have to.

On ring fighters:
They are the toughest sons o bitches you will ever meet. One punch from them could easily knock out most people. The punishment they take is almost unhuman. It's not comparable to a real life situation, and most ring fighters wouldn't go ambushing people in the shadows for a few spare bucks. They are too busy in the gym training for their next fight.

I must add a caution to your first paragraph. Get the ell out of there is good, running away is not. In most cases, a retreat is to be conducted at a deliberate speed, with the attitude of "I am leaving for my own reason, if you try to follow, you will not follow." If you have ever seen a track meet where a runner just clips the heel of the runner in front, you chances are have seen the man in front go down hard. It works the same way in the street.

I was, at one time, a boxer. I have what boxers call 'heavy hands.' I can hit harder than most people and that is all through a fight, not just when I can load a punch up. However, I found guys who could take almost any punch and still keep coming and throwing their own punches. I also found a lot of guys named 'Blinky' or 'Twitch' in the dressing rooms of fight arenas. They were former fighters. I retired.

 

[S-Des]

There are two items in Kung-Fu that are rarely used but do exist. They are the 'three inch punch' and the 'one inch punch.' They are basically tricks, but can be used in some very close quarters situtations.

We learned it in Hapkido. It wasn't for actual combat situations, just as a way of teaching focus and building the body mechanics of punches. My instructor could do serious damage with the punch, but then again he was 6'2, 250lbs.

Pure's question about distance was what I was trying to explain in my post about Tae-Kwon-Do. It is a beautiful art and the user can generate enormous force, but the conditions have to be right. If you get a guy who is too drunk (or stupid) to fight intelligently, you can't count on the distance necessary to use your main weapons. Also, if you're going for a kick at someone's face, you better hope you're not standing on gravel or something that you could slip on.

I like Hapkido for close in fighting, because of the pressure point attacks & joint locking techniques. Our instructor added Tang-Soo-Do & Judo so that we'd have a well-rounded school. The one I always wanted to take was Kempo. I love the multiple punch combinations. They seem like they'd be very effective in a fight.

 

[kiten69]

Carl Douglas

Kung Fu Fighting Lyrics

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they fought with expert timing

They were funky China men from funky Chinatown
They were chopping them up and they were chopping them down
It's an ancient Chineese art and everybody knew their part
From a feint into a slip, and kicking from the hip

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they fought with expert timing

There was funky Billy Chin and little Sammy Chung
He said here comes the big boss, lets get it on
We took a bow and made a stand, started swinging with the hand
The sudden motion made me skip now we're into a brand knew trip

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they did it with expert timing

(repeat)..make sure you have expert timing
Kung-fu fighting, had to be fast as lightning​

Sorry...couldn't resist.

 

[S-Des]

Sorry...couldn't resist.

You're so lucky you're cute.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I must add a caution to your first paragraph. Get the ell out of there is good, running away is not. In most cases, a retreat is to be conducted at a deliberate speed, with the attitude of "I am leaving for my own reason, if you try to follow, you will not follow." If you have ever seen a track meet where a runner just clips the heel of the runner in front, you chances are have seen the man in front go down hard. It works the same way in the street.

Well, yes. It's never good to turn your back on someone intending to hurt you. It was more of a general "run awa" than any specific methodology to the retreat itself.

My hands are small and soft from my desk job. The only way I can win in a fight is if there are no rules, so that I can rip my opponent's (I finally spell checked it after spelling it wrong for my entire life ) ears off. I only fight when my life depends on it, and I find that a valid defense

The more rules there are to a fight, the less likely I am to win. I always want to aim for the kill shot. Break their knees as they approach, punch their throat to cave in their adams apple, or rip off a part of their body when they think getting close to me is a good idea.

Which is an odd way to think for a 6'-4" 230 pound man who knows martial arts. I should be looking at how to keep the damage to a minimum, and learning to throw my weight around more efficiently. I'll figure it all out someday

 

[kiten69]

You're so lucky you're cute.

**sits in a corner and bats eyes innocently**

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I keep looking at the title of this thread and reading is as "Martian Artists"

 

[rgraham666]

I keep looking at the title of this thread and reading is as "Martian Artists"

That sounded interesting. So I Googled the phrase "Martian Artists".

This was the images result.

 

[R. Richard]

The one I always wanted to take was Kempo. I love the multiple punch combinations. They seem like they'd be very effective in a fight.

I have studied Kempo. It is a good, external system. The punches and kicks are practical and intended for use, not show. However, there are large parts of the Kempo system that are not taught in any dojo I know of.

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I keep looking at the title of this thread and reading is as "Martian Artists"

Knowing my proclivity for typoes that was entirely possible

Don Rearic has an interesting site that I mentioned before. This Article on Street Fighting is very interesting and insightful, from what I remember (I haven't read it in over a year).

He has other good articles on stuff too. I don't remember which ones deal with martial arts right now though. Maybe I can be of greater service tomorrow.

 

[R. Richard]

The article on steet fighting was interesting if very non-specific.

If you go into a street fight without weapons, at best you are unprepared, at worst an idiot. Aha, but what if you can't carry a weapon for whatever reason?

Wear combat boots. They were developed by the US government to provide traction on almost any surface. They protect the foot, ankle and lower leg. They also provide a bit of authority to your kicks.

Use a cane. A simple hardwood cane is a devastating street weapon. Because it is light, it is longer than a knife that some street punk will carry. It is not often used as a swinging weapon, but rather as a thrusting weapon. A cane will keep at least one street punk off you, if you know how to use it.

A large caliber revolver is a fearsome weapon in the streets, however it is illegal in many jurisdictions. In my younger days many street fighters carried a single shot 'zip gun.' The zip gun was just a metal tube with a handle and a [usually primitive] firing mechanism. If you got caught with a zip gun, you just threw it on a roof, it cost basically nothing and you could make a new one in a day or so.