Homophobia

[xssve]

 

[xssve]

Women have just as high of a sex drive as men (much often higher) so in that regards they are similar. However, a woman's perception of what constitutes sex is different, IMO.

Of course, I'm basing that belief on my own experiences and I'm pretty stone butch, which we CERTAINLY all agree provides the BEST attributes of both men and women.

Fascinating, I love fisting and cunninlingus, hypothetically, that would make me the best of both worlds, and although I can only find a few women who will openly agree, they're always worth the wait.

The term herterosuckual occurs to me.

Ah, you work with what you got, you know.

Interesting discussion on the whole penetration issue, from a classical perspective.

It brings up the issue of force, as it relates to a heteronormative socio-political construct, i.e., the elaborate lengths a culture goes to to distinguish types of heteronormative behavior itself, among other things, under what conditions force is acceptable - marriage, traditionally, whereas extramarital sex is typically defined as violation, even when it's consensual and mutually satisfying.

Thus, in some ways, homophobia serves as a sort of goat, erecting a facade where heterosexuality, rife with considerable moral/social ambiguities of it's own, seem monolithic and uncontroversial, like, "who? Us?"

It's also hard to avoid concluding that homophobia is in a fundamental way, really an elaborate form of misogynistic transference; i.e., it's ok to abuse a man who acts like a woman, because it's ok to abuse women - sort of makes them an acceptable proxy target for aggressive or violent misogynistic impulses when it's not actually ok to act them out on women.

 

[LaRocha]

Human sexuality in general is much more complicated, I'm talking about simple biology here, this is effectively the essence of reproductive behavior, semen must be introduced in proximity to the cervix while the female has a viable egg waiting - while there are many creative ways of accomplishing this, average biological behavior dictates that this be accomplished with an erect penis, no?

Given the distinct probability that humans are the only animal that understands this as an abstract cognitive truism, and even then often only via cultural transmission of abstract information, i.e., it is not innate knowledge, males of all species have evolved to stick their penis's into any likely looking hole, with the odds that eventually, they'll stumble on the right one at the right time, with a statistically significant incidence.

Certain people simply have a problem, mostly arising from internalization of abstract gender/role/behavioral constructs with the fact that all of that non-reproductive poking around turns out to have utility, value and rewards all of it's own.

There are any number of alternate or concurrent hypothesis about homophobia, it advertises ones own commitment to confining the sexual act to introducing semen in proximity to the cervix during a woman's fertile period, and presumably, some women find that attractive, or at least claim they do, thus it can be seen as a sort of trolling, albeit only marginally mindless as sticking your cock in every hole you see.

Another one is related to the serial killer pattern: any marginalized population is at higher risk for psychopathic predation, and while this is less of a problem in small populations, in large, mobile populations it is at least a statical possibility that one may become a victim of random predation, there may be a subconscious motive to reduce ones target profile by setting up one segment of the population as easier targets, doesn't really matter who it is, or for what reason, as long as you can dissociate your self from them in some way.

Herd behavior basically, forcing the "weaker" members towards the outer perimeter of the herd, where they are more vulnerable to predators, and when it does happen, they alerts the herd that predators are around - you could call it "sacrificial social anode" theory.

But the forage is better, and the fringe is where the plumpest, juiciest berries are found, as opposed to the overgrazed middle - in evolution, like economics, all the action is on the margins.

I was more interested in why you said BDSM participants weren't constructing more elaborate, if not some of the most elaborate, justifications and circumstances to meet and alleviate the biological urge to ejaculate. Culture makes everything more complicated, elaborate fetishistic sex culture just seems to mirror other areas of human life that have become overcomplicated. For example, selling monthly credit protection with a credit card, mortgage backed securities and insurance sold against them, Coke as global force for peace and prosperity, insisting my wife lead me around on a leash and talk down to me in the grocery as precursor to vaginal penetration.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Women have just as high of a sex drive as men (much often higher) so in that regards they are similar. However, a woman's perception of what constitutes sex is different, IMO.

Of course, I'm basing that belief on my own experiences and I'm pretty stone butch, which we CERTAINLY all agree provides the BEST attributes of both men and women.

Baby, you're singing my song!

 

[xssve]

You're just trying to give me cunt envy.

 

[xssve]

The reciprocal of the whole female as martyr dichotomy?

The flip side of woman-as-martyr is man-as-violator, no? It's hardly fair to either of us in the best of all possible worlds.

Fucking Christians and their myths.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The reciprocal of the whole female as martyr dichotomy?

The flip side of woman-as-martyr is man-as-violator, no? It's hardly fair to either of us in the best of all possible worlds.

Fucking Christians and their myths.

And again, I say; You're singing my song. A more intellectual, less immediate song than Amy's, sorry

 

[xssve]

That just discrimination dammit.

 

[Stella_Omega]

That just discrimination dammit.

In the original sense of the word, yes-- you do have a very sexy brain though, and not many men will hear that from me.

 

[sr71plt]

Women have just as high of a sex drive as men (much often higher) so in that regards they are similar. However, a woman's perception of what constitutes sex is different, IMO.

Sorry, again I believe in what I responded to that you were trying to equate male and female where they don't equate. And offering yourself--or Stella, for that matter--as representing basic female doesn't wash with me either. Just my opinion, of course.

And, pleeeze, don't try to represent or speak for all gaydom. That doesn't wash with me either. Speak for yourself and your own preferences. I won't try to tell you what you believe/prefer for yourself and you won't try to speak sweepingly for all gaydom, including male gay or bi. OK?

 

[Stella_Omega]

yeah I don't think you can equate gay men and lesbians-- nor do transsexuals equate with transgendered. A lot of groups of people are forced into community simply because straights see us all as Not Straight.

It's as if Buddhists, Satanists, and Tlingit animists were all forced to share worship space because Christians have deemed them all Not Christian-- oh, wait a minute...

 

[Safe_Bet]

Women have just as high of a sex drive as men (much often higher) so in that regards they are similar. However, a woman's perception of what constitutes sex is different, IMO.

Of course, I'm basing that belief on my own experiences and I'm pretty stone butch, which we CERTAINLY all agree provides the BEST attributes of both men and women.

Sorry, again I believe in what I responded to that you were trying to equate male and female where they don't equate. And offering yourself--or Stella, for that matter--as representing basic female doesn't wash with me either. Just my opinion, of course.

And, pleeeze, don't try to represent or speak for all gaydom. That doesn't wash with me either. Speak for yourself and your own preferences. I won't try to tell you what you believe/prefer for yourself and you won't try to speak sweepingly for all gaydom, including male gay or bi. OK?

What part of "IMO" and "I'm basing that belief on my own experiences" is confusing to you?

Are you always this snarky of an asshole or should I feel especially honored for some reason?

In either event, get the fuck off my back, K?

 

[sr71plt]

What part of "IMO" and "I'm basing that belief on my own experiences" is confusing to you?

Are you always this snarky of an asshole or should I feel especially honored for some reason?

In either event, get the fuck off my back, K?

Of the two of us, I don't think I'm the one being in-your-face snarky. At least you're being true to form (and the name).

Which is another reason I don't think you are a useful representative of gaydom. You've chosen to be in your face and snarky. You're fringe. That rarely works for anything but drawing lines and jutting out chins.

 

[xssve]

In the original sense of the word, yes-- you do have a very sexy brain though, and not many men will hear that from me.

Ah, a discriminating woman.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Homophobia is an invented buzzword that serves the purpose of gay rights propagandists. If you examine the roots of the word "homophobia," it means fear of human beings.

I'm afraid you're confusing the Latin homo, which means "man", with the Greek homo, which means "similar" or "the same", as in a homogeneous solution. or a homonym (words that have the same sound but different meanings).

Phobia itself is taken from the Greek word phobos, meaning fear, so all the phobias use Greek prefixes to describe the object of fear in order not to mix languages.

Literally, homophobia means fear of the same, but it's always been understood to mean "fear of the same sex."

 

[LaRocha]

I'm afraid you're confusing the Latin homo, which means "man", with the Greek homo, which means "similar" or "the same", as in a homogeneous solution. or a homonym (words that have the same sound but different meanings).

Phobia itself is taken from the Greek word phobos, meaning fear, so all the phobias use Greek prefixes to describe the object of fear in order not to mix languages.

Literally, homophobia means fear of the same, but it's always been understood to mean "fear of the same sex."

Androphobia is closer to 'fear of the same sex' than homophobia, but it's much closer to SquareJohn's idea of 'fear of man'. Homophobia is a contraction, homosexual + phobia = homo'phobia aka A state of being in fear of homosexuals. Homophobia isn't specific on sex, the feared can be male or female, the one who fears can be male or female. We just automatically associate the hater as 'meat-head man' and the homosexual as 'pansy effeminate man'. The major confusion is we're taking a now standard English word, 'homosexual'(with it's own Greek/Latin derivation/mishmash) and adding a Greek suffix, instead of creating a new 'Greek' word like Andro + phobia.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=homophobia&searchmode=none

 

[xssve]

Technically correct possibly, if you are referring to but there is no confusion as long as everybody knows what it means, it's close enough, words being signifiers, not things.

Since homo, "man" refers to mankind, andro and gyno alike, i.e., a woman is often seen as sort of an inverted man from the classical and post classical perspective, thus homo here is used in the sense of "same", rather than exclusively, "man", as reflected in it's reciprocal, "hetero", meaning "different" or "other", it's a convention with widespread usage in biology, and uncontroversial.

i.e., if you chose to use androphobia, to describe same sex attraction, it would render the word heterosexual meaningless (in context) and exclude women.

If anything would be confusing to classical man confronted with the word, it would be the failure to include any reference to sexuality, eros, i.e., something clunkier, like homoerotophobia, form which yo could derive anrdoerotophobia (fear of sex with men), and gynoerotophobia, etc., but this merely makes it more confusing, since a homosexual male could well suffer from gynoerotophobia.

While this may describe something worth investigating and describing, we have wandered far from the original topic, and are now talking about something else entirely, being that homophobia is generally associated with the fear of others having sex with the same sex, the notion that it stems from ones own repressed latent homoerotic urges is too revoltin' a development to occur immediately, and would be equally repressed - in fact, this lurking, limnal self doubt is indeed probably what drives homophobic responses to the level of violence, i.e., it's what makes the acceptance of homosexuality as a normative value, "dangerous": while the fringe is busy adapting in order to survive, the center is mostly concerned with social status, the most significant stressor in purely abstract, social environment.

Again, returning to homophobia vs. homoerotophobia, it's not really a problem, since empirically, the root word of homophobia is the compound word, homosexual, which does explicitly reference eros: it is the child of the parent object "homosexual", and without the former, there is no need for the latter, and thus the word is generally understood in this context to anyone remotely familiar with the debate, which is pretty much everybody past the age of puberty.

So, "homophobia" may be confusing from an aspect of strict linguistic construction, in a cultural vacuum, but it's quickly and rapidly explained to anyone regardless of how familiar they may be with the concept, a child for instance: "it's when Two people of the same sex are attracted to each other sexually" - assuming the receiver has enough experience to form at least a notional concept of what sex is, and homophobia can then be introduced as as describing the negative reaction this may elicit.

No?

 

[xssve]

Sorry about quoting myself, but this is a diversion that's actually more to the point:

"While this may describe something worth investigating and describing, we have wandered far from the original topic, and are now talking about something else entirely, being that homophobia is generally associated with the fear of others having sex with the same sex, the notion that it stems from ones own repressed latent homoerotic urges is too revoltin' a development to occur immediately, and would be equally repressed - in fact, this lurking, limnal self doubt is indeed probably what drives homophobic responses to the level of violence, i.e., it's what makes the acceptance of homosexuality as a normative value, "dangerous": while the fringe is busy adapting in order to survive, the center is mostly concerned with social status, the most significant stressor in purely abstract, social environment."

The result, when one factors in "forbidden fruit syndrome", i.e., that repressing an urge can actually increase it's urgency, compounded by a fear of possible resulting loss of social status, you get not only homosexual self loathing, but people who would never in their right minds experiment with homoerotic behavior completely obsessed with it, which can and does elevate it to the status of a full blown neurosis.

 

[xssve]

Interesting territory, since now were into the construct of self as a reflection of status, how one is seen by others, rather than the hermetic self - it often leads to the misapplication of the phrase "self esteem", a common misdiagnosis of what is often seen as self destructive behavior - "you cannot possibly respect yourself because I don't respect you, thus you have low self esteem" - i.e., completely redefining "self" as the abstract social construct, the model of you, in the minds of others, your image, and is a form of objectification, since it further goes on to discount even intimate knowledge of you as a unique individual with a history and legacy of social behavior, and reduces you to an abstract consensus model - pretty much the same way racism works.

This is common syndrome in the other directed self, since everything is measured against a generic abstract model of acceptable standards, a pure construct, that glosses over the details - i.e., that other than your unfortunate attraction to persons of the same sex (social suicide, self destructive - and you could say the same about extramarital affairs, etc.) you are otherwise a lovely and productive human being whom nobody otherwise has a bad word to say about you - i.e., perfectly well adjusted socially, and your sexuality, if one is not actually contemplating forming a sexual relationship with you, is irrelevant.

For various reasons however, most of them political, there is always some demographic that can't get past the sex and see the person - in my experience, this is typically rationalized by invoking ones status as a "role model", and assumes all human behavior is basically monkey see, monkey do.

The consistent theoretical problem here is the subordination of the hermetic self to the ideal model, ones "image" which being a consensus superego ideal formed by the culture at at large, is irrational by definition, and at one end of the spectrum, leads to the failure entire segments of the population properly attribute empirical cause and effect because the model, a facade, the signifier of order, is to be protected at all costs regardless of the actual nature of that order, or any empirical assessment of it's functional ethical standards - Ratzinger protects child molesters to protect "the institution", for example - the supposed bastion of adult hereronormative behavior becomes a haven for predatory pedophiles.

And at the other end of the spectrum, it causes what might be otherwise rational people to act out in disturbing and often violent, sociopathic ways, aiming to ease the stress of the ambiguity between the ideal and what is, by eradicating it's signifier, nationalism is a common example - it's the basic primate centripetal defense response deliberately invoked and twisted to the political-economic ends of a minority - note that everything is expressed in martial terms: "war, "threat", "terror", etc.; "agenda" a euphemism for "coup".

In the US, this other-directed phenomena arises from a confluence of the underlying evangelical Triumphalist fantasy of some final victory, manifest destiny, for example, further complicated by Calvinist caste predeterminism; American politics are utterly suffused with them, and the whole thing amplified by the relentless barrage of corporate indoctrination via advertising, with it's stress on conformity, and production values over ethics, or even content - David Schwimmer, a gay man in real life, playing a heteronormative yuppie on TV - he's an actor, granted, but clearly an incidence of, as Subjoe calls it, "Humperdinking".

To cut through my own jargon, it's a whole culture climbing up it's own asshole, and "god" forbid you should poke your head out and look around once in a while.

 

[LaRocha]

androgynous + phobia is interesting, a fear of androgynous people, which would resemble the vacuity in meaning of homophobia -- but androphobia is just talking about fear of danglers, the -gynous isn't hidden by a contraction like the -sexual. homophobia isn't the easiest of concepts. Fear of spiders and fear of the number thirteen have some fairly straightforward explanations, ie spiders bite, some are poisonous, the number thirteen is imbued with some sort of magic that will bring you bad luck...

 

[xssve]

Androgynophobia is not only a mouthful, but I've never actually encountered it, it tends to elicit bafflement rather than fear - remember the "Pat" sketches on Saturday Night Live?

Or Prince, contrasting an explicitly androgynous visual appearance (his first appearance on SNL), with brazenly exaggerated and aggressive heterosexual lyrics and body language - my first reaction was not fear, it was WTF?

 

[xssve]

Boy George didn't even elicit fear, again, he was so mystifyingly androgynous and blatantly camp, that he was actually kind of attractive - even dedicated homophobes had to work at it to froth themselves into a convincing dudgeon, I saw a lot of them simply trail off into silence mid rant.

 

[xssve]

Hell, you could probably blame Boy George for making the phrase "well, whatever..." a catchphrase of the Eighties.

Only later did the Valley Girls morph it into "WHAT-ever"!

 

[Xelebes]

I'm afraid you're confusing the Latin homo, which means "man", with the Greek homo, which means "similar" or "the same", as in a homogeneous solution. or a homonym (words that have the same sound but different meanings).

Phobia itself is taken from the Greek word phobos, meaning fear, so all the phobias use Greek prefixes to describe the object of fear in order not to mix languages.

Literally, homophobia means fear of the same, but it's always been understood to mean "fear of the same sex."

Catamiphobia, sodomiphobia, sapphobia and artemophobia are more specific.

(Key: Fear of the catchers; fear of the pitchers; fear of the femme; fear of the butch.)

 

[Xelebes]

Catamiphobia, sodomiphobia, sapphobia and artemophobia are more specific.

(Key: Fear of the catchers; fear of the pitchers; fear of the femme; fear of the butch.)

There is probably more to add:

Pederastophobia: fear of hidden pederasts
Gynoidophobia: fear of emasculation
Androidophobia: fear of masculinity, fear of being made masculine
Hermaphrodiphobia: fear of the intersex and intergender
Machygamiphobia: fear of violence in others' relationships, fear of sadism and masochism