Have Europeans Given Up?

[busybody..]

Dumb Dixie

I C&Ped that from another thread that I wrote that on.....

It was responsive to your comment vis a vis the French "veto"......The veto is meaningless......Unless we make it so.....and guess what....

We wont make it so!

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

FUCK everyone who stands in the way of America.....

You are the kid who eats glue. You're swaying no one, and helping no one, and are in fact the very opposite of the treasured dissent, dialogue, patience and virtue of this country. You are everything p p man thinks America is. And I can't think of a worse insult than that.

 

[busybody..]

Dumb Dixie Cunt

Understand this.

I am not seeking recognition, popularity, acceptance or anything......

If EVERYONE puts me on IGNORE and thinks whatever of me.....

I could care less!!!!!!!!

Dont waste your breath.....

 

[bluespoke]

Re: The Elder Countries..

It's like people that give up and say, "I'm not as young as I used to be.." That first surrender in your character opens up your acceptance as a victim in the world. So goes the "elder" countries in the world, whining and complaining about the new kids playing loud music and fucking on the lawn, meanwhile, never leaving the safety of the house.

Oh for goodness sake LC don't start sounding like a Busybody clone. What more do you want us to do?

 

[District Line]

I don't agree. Organized crime's goal is not anarchy -- just the opposite, in fact. In order for organized crime to operate a (friendly) and open legal order must exist. A terrorist group openly seeks anarchy. They are not the same thing, and global terrorism which relies upon the safe harbor of a nation ruled by fear and despotism can be eradicated.

DCL, I can't agree with that generalization. Maybe some lunatic fringe terrorists seek anarchy, maybe some groups seek chaos in the short term but most have clear long term aims.

I partially agree with what you say about despotic countries providing safe harbour for terrorists. However, we know that organized cells of terrorist can work very effeciently in Western societies.

Again, drawing on the organized crime example, 'mob' members weren't recruited and trained in Afgan camps.

 

[busybody..]

Gee, I wonder what General NUTZ McCaulife would say to that?

America has a certain attitude.....

Can do!

not

CANT DO SHIT!

 

[Pagliacci]

<SNIP>And how did Europe learn that lesson, exactly, since they've never fought a war like it, ever. Hell, the US hasn't either, but we're doing it nontheless and learning more and more about how to fight it every day.

This would be incorrect if you look at how Germany for many years fought such illustrious groups such as the Rote Arme Fraktion,Baader Meinhof and splinter groups there of. In the end they managed to put most members either in the grave or in prison,those that got away hasn't been heard of.

France successfully fought the Action Directe.

Italy broke the back of Brigado Rosso.

During all those years the Americans didn't care that much officially (I of course acknowledge the fact that US intelligence agencies most likely lent what aid they could) since no Americans where victims.Now all of a sudden terrorism is important and we should get on a bandwagon we've been on for decades because the US got hit ?

Of course we should keep fighting terrorism,but just because we agree on the goal doesn't mean we have to agree on the way it's done.That's where the crux is in my opinion.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Yeah, anyway, back to the real Americans...

Do people here really think France is hemming and hawing because they gave Iraq weapons? I don't think that's it at all.

 

[busybody..]

America is the greatest country that the world has ever had.....

It became that NOT BECAUSE of a passive attitude.....doing what the whole world would approve of at all times......

Rather it is because of the attitude of

Damn the torpedos.....full speed ahead....

and the Attitude of great men like Gen NUTZ McCaulife.....

Not PC pussy footers multishitters global villager assholes......

AMERICA CAN DO!

EUROPE CANT DO SHIT!

 

[Pagliacci]

BB why not ahow your dedication by taking a one way ticket to Baghdad,get a car and fill it with explosives then drive to the Presidential palace of Saddam Hussein.Cry out pro US slogans along with praise of the Lord our God and proceed to blow yourself along with the car into the afterlife.

You'll be considered a martyr and possibly get a holiday named after yourself.

Trust me on this.

Do it for your country and show some "can do" attitude instead of just being a limpwristed desk monkey typing away.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Now all of a sudden terrorism is important and we should get on a bandwagon we've been on for decades because the US got hit ?

See, we don't really see it that way. The U.S. didn't get hit, the world got hit. And I don't just mean the citizens from 88 countries that were killed, I'm talking about one ideology, extreme fundamentalist religion, attacking another, representative non-denominational free republics. We don't see this as "they hit America". That's not what we "woke up" to. We see this as a fight for not only the planet, but for how all decisions about trade and sovereinty are to be decided in the 21st century. We're saying that the world will NOT do business under the threat of a gun. Honestly, we're pissed about an attack on our soil, but we see this as a global problem of who gets to run the planet, the people, or the priests.

 

[Pagliacci]

See, we don't really see it that way. The U.S. didn't get hit, the world got hit. And I don't just mean the citizens from 88 countries that were killed, I'm talking about one ideology, extreme fundamentalist religion, attacking another, representative non-denominational free republics. We don't see this as "they hit America". That's not what we "woke up" to. We see this as a fight for not only the planet, but for how all decisions about trade and sovereinty are to be decided in the 21st century. We're saying that the world will NOT do business under the threat of a gun. Honestly, we're pissed about an attack on our soil, but we see this as a global problem of who gets to run the planet, the people, or the priests.

DCL:

You don't see it that way now,you've seen it that way for a long time.
Look back at history and you'll see that the US has had a long history of abstentationism,just as most countries around the world and now all of a sudden GWB,his administration and the citizens of the USA have seen the light to create a brave new world encapsulating all democratically minded people of the world ?

I don't believe that as little as I believe that the US champions the cause of not doing business under the threat of a gun. Those throwing their weight around threatening with guns are the US at the moment,just as much as the soon to be ill fated enemies of hers.

What if some people then want the priests to run them are the US then going to do to that country what they did to Chile by staging a coup and install a guy like Pinochet ?
Pull a Nicaragua to get their way ?

I'm sorry if this sounds anti US,I'm well aware that many European nations have acted in the very same way,but we're discussing the US Vs Europe views here.

 

[District Line]

Re: The Elder Countries..

It's like people that give up and say, "I'm not as young as I used to be.." That first surrender in your character opens up your acceptance as a victim in the world. So goes the "elder" countries in the world, whining and complaining about the new kids playing loud music and fucking on the lawn, meanwhile, never leaving the safety of the house.

LC, I don't think anybody is saying give up fighting terrorism. We're in it for the long haul.

However, some of us think that rail-roading ourselves into a war with Iraq is not the right strategy. The fallout would cause more problems.

 

[Lost Cause]

Again..

When I say "Europe" I mean the governments, not the people. If you dropped a regular citizen/subject of each country on a deserted island, everyone would get along fine. It's when governments representing the people get into these political quagmires that drag the country as a whole down. France has a bunch of deals going on in Iraq, including their agents helping Iraq destroy incriminating documents as we speak. Germany, with their expertise, built the Iraqi bunkers. all the opposition countries have had a hand in the build up of Sodamn Insane, and a overthrow of him would bring these agreements out into the daylight, destroying their credibility to the world.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

You don't see it that way now,you've seen it that way for a long time.

I agree. Global ideology has shaped our policies since the beginning, and we've used it to justify everything from Manifest Destiny to the Spanish American War to taking Texas from Mexico to Panama to Vietnam to putting landmines between the Koreas. Amercians absolutely have a sense of meeting a goal 200 years down the road. And if we spend to much time looking a century or two forward I think the Europeans spend too much time looking a century or two backwards. Honestly, we should just let New Zealand run the world.

I think it runs along with something else Americans think -- that "America" is more an ideal for the entire world than it is a soveriegn nation with tightly controlled borders. We don't see that as egotistical, because we are the rest of the world -- we're made up of Europeans and Africans and Asians. Sometimes we wonder what you're all still doing over there. It's your country, as well. Come one. Wouldn't you like to be a pepper, too?

By the way, since I put Busybody and p p man on ignore this thread reads intelligent again.

 

[Myrrdin]

Do people here really think France is hemming and hawing because they gave Iraq weapons? I don't think that's it at all.

France has a long record of doing what is best for France. The French Gov't will always put the views of it's own people first. The ambitions of it's politicians second. Unlike Brit politicians who seem mainly interested in making the right move to avance their personal careers.

Either that or the U.S just hasn't offered it enough sweeteners, sorry, foreign aid, yet.

Funny how a seat on the Security Council is enough to earn some former Eastern bloc, or emerging African nation, a huge increase in U.S largesse.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Yes, I know France is very big on France. They even have "language police" now, to keep French French. Maybe that's what I'm getting at -- that as flag-waving and blantantly patriotic Americans are it really is less about the people we were and more about the people we aspire to be.

 

[Pagliacci]

DCL:

I mightn't be the best choice to debate with on this but I do agree with your premise of Europeans looking back over out shoulders to historical precedents.
I do it a lot,in fact my old history teacher was fond of saying "Through history we know the future because history repeats itself".Something I've noticed is true.

We Europeans have history going back a long way,thus we can look back and see that whatever happens now has happened before and if they solved things successfully back then doing something odds are it'll work again.

The US though is a young nation,that hasn't seen that much in comparison.It's a nation born out of brash action not always (In the European mind) thought through when it comes to consequences.Quick fix solutions to achieve a goal and then sod what happens afterwards.

I agree with what you say,but we're proud of our inbred aristocrats and the good old times.Hell I'm proud as hell that Sweden was a superpower for close to three hundred years and that most of Europe cowered in fright as soon as Swedes were mentioned during the thirty years war and long afterwards.We don't want the American way of seeing things,we don't want to be American,we want our history for good or bad,the petty rivalries because without it we'd be as interesting as oatmeal.Or even worse in some peoples eyes.We'd be Americans and we don't want to be that for all the gold in Fort Knox.

Our ancestors toughed it out and didn't high tail it to the land of plenty.If they didn't why should we ?

I'd like to append something to my last post that got a bit to America bashing for my taste namely : The US aren't alone in their gunwaving,their joined by European nations as well,which just goes to show that none is better than the other.

 

[Pagliacci]

Yes, I know France is very big on France. They even have "language police" now, to keep French French. Maybe that's what I'm getting at -- that as flag-waving and blantantly patriotic Americans are it really is less about the people we were and more about the people we aspire to be.

You aspire to be American as you are in fact an American.The French strive to be French.
It has been the policy of France for a long time to keep their language pure.I think the sentiment is good although being French they go way overboard.

Why not let people be what they want to be instead of trying to make them Americans ?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

When we had that "culture" thread a few weeks back I made a point that most Europeans overlook -- France doesn't own ballet, England doesn't own King Arthur and Germany doesn't own beer. European culture is our culture. America wasn't born from the head of John Adams 235 years ago. American culture didn't begin with "Yankee Doodle". Our myths, archetypes, heros, literature, music and art is yours. It doesn't matter if a work by Dickens is carried acorss Fleet Street or across the Altantic Ocean, it is very much a part of the American landscape.

And that includes the notion of aristocracy. America began with, by and (astonishingly) in spite of an entrenched artistocracy made up of landowners like William Penn (as in "Pennsylvania"). Believe me, your love of "your" history lives here, too.

And America is not fully incoculated against the glories of the past. Witness idiots like Busybody who can't see the stars for the stripes and thinks the coming war with Iraq is his high school's Homecoming football game.

And, conversely, I allow that Euorpeans are not all wallowing in carriages and kings, either.

Seriously. New Zealand. Give them a chance.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

You aspire to be American as you are in fact an American.The French strive to be French.
It has been the policy of France for a long time to keep their language pure.I think the sentiment is good although being French they go way overboard.

Why not let people be what they want to be instead of trying to make them Americans ?

That isn't what I meant. To give you an example of what I'm trying to say, let's take the idea of a "pure" language. America doesn't have one. I don't know if Europeans know this, but America does not have a national language. The reason is that, first of all, law is already written in English, and there's no need to to legislate this, but secondly America does not aspire to be anchored in a single culture, but to permit and embrace them all. That's what I mean about "America" as a world concept. Not a planet governed by an American president and everyone adopting American laws and customs, but a global community of soveriegn nations that permit and embrace each other, based on a commonality of freedom and liberty. That's what I meant.

 

[Pechorin]

Why not let people be what they want to be instead of trying to make them Americans ?

Weren't the events of 9/11 caused, in part by America's "Can do" attitude? Yes this thread asserts America's positive attitude but when this spills over into arrogance it's not just the other person's problem it's America's too.

It's odd to think that the country that told us all to "be cool, man" in the 60's is now at the forefront of kicking the butt of anything that stands in it's way.

 

[Pagliacci]

DCL:

For good and bad you've taken some things from Europe,it's inevitable as you're a nation of immigrants,and it has mutated.Thus they're not European but the US version of what you think is European.Then after time you decided you don't want to be the little brother but get out from under Europes shadow.

This is where things go sour because you're trying to hard (In my mind at least) by heaping adulation on your own way of doing and seeing things and want the rest of the world to see what you see and get us to follow suit.

The US doesn't seem to understand that maybe people enjoy the way things are and don't want American culture no matter how good it is.They don't want American efficiency,no matter how great it is.
Maybe it'll come with time but you don't want to wait,it's the problem of the American "Quick fix" syndrome.

Do like us Euros,be patient and let things take their time.

I know that America isn't insultaed against idiots more than European nations are.Idiots are everywhere,in every country,race,culture and creed and they give all the others a bad rep.

 

[virginleo20]

dixon carter lee
".....I've felt that the Europeans also feel that way about fascism, communism, monarchies, smoking, alcoholism and government subsidized film and television. "

Being european... and living in the US let me just say that from what i can seen out of your first post it seems that you are living in a fantasy land. no offence.

American television hapens to be 500 times more governemnt controlled than anything that most of "liberal" europe might ever have. jeez you only need to take a look at your evening news....
it seems that giving people subjects to think about via the tele over here is illegal.
Any news on human rights violations etc from countries in oh lets say africa get subsituted with the news of a cat being stuck in a tree.
Then there is the fact that there are no foreign films being shown on the tele even though it would become cheaper and would attract a larger viewr base than the 30 year old reruns of starchy and hutch. they do not show them because there might be some "politically incorrect" material present in them.


Ok ill stop there but to put it short america IS NOT the "home of the free" anymore.

As to smoking.. well i dont smoke but everyone has the right to do as they please.... if it bothers someone it is common courtesy to put the sig out. Most people understand that and comply with it.
(but then again im yet to see anyone in america apply the consept pf common courtesy unless legally bound to it.)

The monarchies are there simply because such frou frou crap seems to appease the elderly demented yeahoos whom like to read the latests gossip on what troll is dansing on dianas grave etc. last night.
The kings and queens etc have absolutely no political power per say they are mere parasites... much like most politicians but with out the leverage.

But then again here in "Freedom land" it seems that people have the same attitudes youmentioned to a corrupt government.. criminal idiot politicians etc... as proof just take a look on how many members of your cogress are going trough some form of litigation as result of their "questionable activities.
Atleast in europe its a "legally corrupt" government system ...

I dont evenw ant to go on a rant on fascism and america ....lol i mean jeez they dont even try to cover that up.... prapable cause etc.... and certain issues on detaining people hmmmm over "national security issues"...
Heck back in the days of the hippes, nixon etc there were peacefull demostrators being shot in the streets because they were seen as thretst to the public.


As to the trips to the moon etc.. mind you that it was a large number of european scientists whom migrated here from ww2 germany and designed the rockets and made it happen.
you guys mere supplied them with the funds.
What else... most of the rocket and jet engine technology has been developed here from what ever stuff was ripped off from the germans after ww2. Some of the jet technology was ripped of from the brits too.


by the way you dont even want me to go on the fact that this place is much like east germany... considering the fact that one practically needs a government permission before trying to dial out a phone call to a foreign country.


As to everythig said above its all true.. though the representation i just gave was a bit of a mix of sarcastic commentary and parody.
As to the propably comment you will next give of "if you dont like it then leave".. all i can say is that it has nothing to do with the subject at hand and you can shove such nonrelavent logic up where the sun dont shine.

AHHH there is my rant session... mind you that i have a very "dark" sence of humor.
By the way i dont really care of grammar and spelling errors

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Weren't the events of 9/11 caused, in part by America's "Can do" attitude?

No, they were caused by 19 men with box cutter knives hijacking jet aircraft.