Have Europeans Given Up?

[busybody..]

Violence promotes violence.
You kill a terrorist his son will grow up and kill yours.

What do we do then? Chouse politicians that can actually negotiate and not send in hounds with a first sign of trouble. Having a politician with military past is unacceptable.

What garbage, the only way to stop terrorism is to make it impossible for the terrorist to do what he wants to do.....

Be it either by KILLING him.....

Removing his infrastructure.....

Or

Making HIS downside worse then his upside.....

When the West was suffering from kidnappings of its citizens in Lebanon during the 1980's.....The Soviets werent......read the history of the time and find out why that was.....

Since the early 70's the West looked at terrorists as primarily a Jewish/Israeli problem.....and as such it emboldened the terror groups....

Now it has hit home.....

I cant believe there are idiots such as you around!

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Busybody....don't help me.

Argh.

 

[JazzManJim]

I hope no one has already said this on the thread but....

Don't you find it interesting that the nations that are the first to support our Iraqi position, are those newly liberated from Soviet control? Some columnist called them the "new Europe" and compared their recent history of totalitarianism as the catalyst for supporting the over-throw of Hussien.

I was just thinking this very thing. I really think the quality that holds those nations together is a certain positive attitude and the belief that any problem can be solved.

The comedian Eddie Izzard made a point about the essential difference between his native UK and the US - that being the US has always had a "can-do" attitude about just about everything, and England has been mired with a spirit of ex-empire and dimishment. I can't say that it's entirely true, but for much of what Donald Rumsfeld very insightfully called "Old Europe", that does seem to be the case.

 

[JazzManJim]

Bush's America actually believes it can win a 'war' of this nature, in Europe we've learnt you can't.

And how did Europe learn that lesson, exactly, since they've never fought a war like it, ever. Hell, the US hasn't either, but we're doing it nontheless and learning more and more about how to fight it every day.

Don't hear much from Bin Laden or Mullah Omar these days, do you? Nah. It's really hard to broadcast reliable transmissions to your followers or oppress a vast population from inside a cave.

 

[busybody..]

Desert Rose

I hope no one has already said this on the thread but....

Don't you find it interesting that the nations that are the first to support our Iraqi position, are those newly liberated from Soviet control? Some columnist called them the "new Europe" and compared their recent history of totalitarianism as the catalyst for supporting the over-throw of Hussien.

Excellent point.....

The useless countries such as France (who always bellyache) and Germany seem to be the only ones balking.....

Those countries that have tasted the harshness of tyranny.....are the first to support its overthrow!

 

[p_p_man]

I was just thinking this very thing. I really think the quality that holds those nations together is a certain positive attitude and the belief that any problem can be solved.

Very fanciful but not true...

They are supporting the States at the moment because they have sided with Blair in his European Presidential ambition...

And for good or bad at the moment what he says goes...

Mind you the support is only minimal at best and lip service at worst.

ppman

 

[busybody..]

PPMan

Bush's America actually believes it can win a 'war' of this nature, in Europe we've learnt you can'


You keep saying Europe.....

When in fact its only Germany, France and Belgium.....all yesterdays cuntries

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Bush's America actually believes it can win a 'war' of this nature, in Europe we've learnt you can't.

No country could invade Fortress Europe in 1944.
America led D-Day. I know. I saw the movie.

No country deafeats an enemy and then builds that country back up.
Thank you Marshall plan.

No country could stand eye to eyes with the Soviets and make them blink.
American policy brought down the Berlin wall and collapsed the communist party.

No one can fight against the Arabs in their deserts.
American beat Iraq in 72 days. No sweat.

No country in history has ever been able to take Afghansitan, including the Russians, and Americans will learn how hard it is to fight an enemy in caves!
Goooooood morning, Kabul!

Honestly, when we hear "you can't end terrorism, you have to live with it", we're just not listening. We're planning. We're moving forward. We're taking positive action.

And you're welcome.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

When in fact its only Germany, France and Belgium.....all yesterdays cuntries

Honestly, you're not helping. France and Germany are powerful, important nations that are a force for good in this world, and calling them "cuntries" is another indication of how ugly, misinformed and unAmerican your positions are. Now would you PLEASE take that fucking pirate symbol off my flag?

 

[p_p_man]

Re: PPMan

Bush's America actually believes it can win a 'war' of this nature, in Europe we've learnt you can'


You keep saying Europe.....

When in fact its only Germany, France and Belgium.....all yesterdays cuntries

They're all member states of the EU and I include them on that basis. But also they probably think the same as I do...



ppman

 

[Lancecastor]

I would replace the word "quickly" with "decisively". The former denotes rashness, the latter leadership. I see nothing "quick" in waiting 12 years for sanctions, inspections and U.N. resolutions to work, particularly after we pulled our Army out of Iraq after the stated mission of Desert Strom was achieved. America isn't about doing it "quickly", but doing it.

Decisively is trhe right word to use if the USA acts upon hard facts and with the cooperation and agreement of the UN...otherwise, any actions are indeed rash, IMHO.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

IMHO the hard facts are there, and not only from U.S. sources, and U.N. cooperation will continue to be forthcoming. All because we didn't act rashly, and all because we did act decisively.

 

[District Line]

No. Since Prohibition was revoked the racketeering laws have gotten stronger, and after the FBI crackdown in the 70s and 80s the Mafia has been crushed beyond recognition or repair. Of course there's organized crim in America. There's organizaed crime everywhere. But it's no longer a secret society with fingers in every pie -- it's had its dick cut off big time. Just ask John Gotti.

Oh, you can't, he died in prison.

And p p man? Your post made no sense at all.

If you say it's reduced, okay I'll accept that. However, as you state, it hasn't been irradicated.

Even with the 'can do' attitude, even with the mentality focussed on problem solving and all the resources available to law enforcement agencies, after 70 years, the problem still remains. It is difficult to purge completely and this is only something within the US.

This shows how difficult it is to deal with terrorism at a world level.

 

[busybody..]

Honestly, you're not helping. France and Germany are powerful, important nations that are a force for good in this world, and calling them "cuntries" is another indication of how ugly, misinformed and unAmerican your positions are. Now would you PLEASE take that fucking pirate symbol off my flag?

Germany has a discredited Chancelor....11% unemployement....nearly bankrupt.....

France can beat the rag tags in the Ivory Coast.....and cant beat eggs.....

Where did you get the idea they are powerful and useful CUNTries?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

This shows how difficult it is to deal with terrorism at a world level.

I don't agree. Organized crime's goal is not anarchy -- just the opposite, in fact. In order for organized crime to operate a (friendly) and open legal order must exist. A terrorist group openly seeks anarchy. They are not the same thing, and global terrorism which relies upon the safe harbor of a nation ruled by fear and despotism can be eradicated.

 

[busybody..]

American can do anything.....The impossible takes a bit longer....

Europe just is content not being beaten up to much.....

America doesnt expect to sit and be beaten.....It acts to eradicate the threat.....

Europe sits around and hopes to absorb the blows.....and hopes to survive.....

America.....CAN DO!

Europe......CANT DO SHIT!

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Germany has a discredited Chancelor....11% unemployement....nearly bankrupt.....

France can beat the rag tags in the Ivory Coast.....and cant beat eggs.....

Where did you get the idea they are powerful and useful CUNTries?

You can't be taken seriously with that AV, and you can't be taken seriously if you use words like "cuntries", and you can't be taken seriously if you don't understand France's Veto power or the responsibilities of the NATO nations. You want to discuss politics ad infinitum. I would think someone like that would want to be taken seriously. When are you losing the pirate symbol over the American flag? If you don't answer me, or don't change your AV, you will continue to be thought of as a member of the Idiot Clique and ridiculed and ignored and not one of your points will ever be taken seriously. What do you have to say to that?

 

[Uber Sparky]

And nobody here thinks that...

ultra vast expances of billions of gallons of salt water has...

ANYTHING...

to do with this situation?

Please.

There are thinkers here?

 

[busybody..]

DCL

France is "in NATO" in name only.....

Richard Perle has just said we in fact have to get rid of France to maintain NATO....

As far as the veto.....

Oh boy we really must get the "approval" of the UN!

How can we possibly go to war without the approval of the United Nations?

This question would make sense if there was a big red button marked "START WAR" in a locked closet at the U.N. Secretariat, and we had to beg Kofi Annan for the keys. The United States can go to war whenever it likes for its own reasons, and all the United Nations can do is pass more worthless paper. The only way a resolution could stop a truly determined president would be if they wrapped it around a rock and threw it at George W. Bush's head.

The United States does not need additional resolutions; 1441 said that "false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq ... and failure to comply with and cooperate fully in the implementation of this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations."

Well, Iraq has been in material breach since it dumped 12,000 pages of obfuscating gobbledegook on everyone's desks. Iraq was in material breach before the inspectors showed up. Every day the inspectors are not driven to a dump and shown the remains of warheads, or empty canisters, or bones of all the lab monkeys who perished in Saddam Hussein's quest to weaponize spoiled potato salad, Iraq is in material breach. It's a breach-o-rama. It's breacherrific. Cue the Madonna song: The U.N. is immaterial now, and this is a material breach.

"OK, fine, but how can we possibly go to war without the approval of the United Nations?"

You mean the French and the Germans, perhaps. Well, France is demonstrating its habitual reaction to glowering men with small mustaches; German leaders are pandering to their dovish cliques for short-term political gain. Politicians in both countries probably get hummingbird heart rates when they contemplate U.S. officials poring through the records in Baghdad and finding the extent to which our allies have been meeting Saddam at the back door.

In any case, who cares what France thinks? It's not as if France would be of any use in a war. France has one notoriously unreliable aircraft carrier, and its best troops are engaged in a unilateral operation in Ivory Coast.

"Granted. But how can we possibly go to war without the approval of the United Nations?"

Perhaps you mean that we need the moral imprimatur of this august and esteemed body. You'd have a better point if the United Nations was moral, august or esteemed. On the contrary: The United Nations is a dim hive of self-interested parties engaged in endless parliamentary mummery, united by a consensual delusion that all nations are equal.

So you have the bitterly risible sight of Libya chairing the U.N. Commission on Human Rights, which is akin to giving Kid Rock control over the New York Philharmonic. You have the 2003 disarmament conference rotating its presidency among a group of states that includes Iran and Iraq. (Perhaps next year the agricultural planning conference will be held in Pyongyang.) You have the shameful performance of the peacekeepers in Srebrenica, looking away while thousands were slaughtered. You have the sex-for-food scandal at U.N. refugee camps in Africa -- if it happened at an American frat house, it would be national news for a week.

And you have small, telling scenes like the one that transpired in Baghdad recently. A man thrust himself into a U.N. inspector's car and begged for sanctuary. The U.N. official pretended to study his papers while the poor man pleaded for his life. The Iraqi guards took the man away, and if what we know about Iraqi prisons is even half right, we can only hope they killed the man as soon as he was out of camera range.

Imagine you are running in fear from Iraqi thugs, and you see a U.N. car, and a U.S. convoy. To which would you run?

"Yes, yes, it's not perfect. But don't we need U.N. approval?"

No. But if it makes you feel better to know that China graciously allowed the United States to act in its own self-interest, pretend that they did. Picture an unelected communist bureaucrat giving Bush permission to move some carriers toward the Gulf. Feel better?

The word you're looking for is "oui."

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Yes. The ocean is very big. Thank you, Sparky. Can you tell us some of the fish that live in the ocean?

 

[bluespoke]

American can do anything.....The impossible takes a bit longer....

Europe just is content not being beaten up to much.....

America doesnt expect to sit and be beaten.....It acts to eradicate the threat.....

Europe sits around and hopes to absorb the blows.....and hopes to survive.....

America.....CAN DO!

Europe......CANT DO SHIT!

I don't often get annoyed. But you are pushing your luck. Why don't you just FUCK OFF and crawl back into the cess pit that spawned you.

I'd call you a wanker but I don't believe it's big enough to get hold of.

Thank goodness for the ignore button.

 

[busybody..]

I don't often get annoyed. But you are pushing your luck. Why don't you just FUCK OFF and crawl back into the cess pit that spawned you.

I'd call you a wanker but I don't believe it's big enough to get hold of.

Thank goodness for the ignore button. [/QUOTE


I couldnt care less if you are annoyed or if you place me on IGNORE.....

And I wont FUCK OFF.......

America.....CAN DO!

Europe......CANT DO SHIT!

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Busy, I noticed that you cut and pasted your post from another thread, and not only did it not apply to the questions I asked you, it was another overhyped example of your position that America is prettier than everyone else. But as long as you have that pirate symbol on your AV, which you've not addressed, we're going to continue thinking that you're a 13 year old seeing the world as a giant game of "Risk". I don't understand why you're not understanding this -- you're not taken seriously, get it? Why would you want to continue being placed in the same boat as Hanns, p p man and REDWAVE? Calm down, speak plainly, leave off the football locker room rhetoric, state your arguments clearly, lose the pirate crap, and you will be taken seriously. And if you don't do that then I'm going to conclude that you prefer that everyone treats you as the kid who eats glue.

 

[busybody..]

Why have we given such importance to the UNSC?

There are countries on that body that have less of a GNP then do a two block radius in the USA!

Why should we, America subordinate our self interest to third parties?

If the UN wont support US.....

We outa remove US from the UN.....

FUCK everyone who stands in the way of America.....

READ MY SIG LINE!

 

[Lost Cause]

The Elder Countries..

It's like people that give up and say, "I'm not as young as I used to be.." That first surrender in your character opens up your acceptance as a victim in the world. So goes the "elder" countries in the world, whining and complaining about the new kids playing loud music and fucking on the lawn, meanwhile, never leaving the safety of the house.