Have Europeans Given Up?

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I'm sure it's just my perspective, New World bound and all, but for years I've felt that Europe has accepted that Terrorism is something that must be endured, lived with, controlled and contained as much as possible, but something that isn't going to go away, and that America should and will come around to this way of thinking and beef up their airport security, etc. I've felt that the Europeans also feel that way about fascism, communism, monarchies, smoking, alcoholism and government subsidized film and television.

Though Americans can be hard pressed to give up those things they've come to expect out of life, too, I find that we're not so resolute about the inevitablility of the norm. Fascism and communism actually can be defeated. Smoking will one day vanish. The case for new pre-emptive strike warfare can be made. And Terrorism actually can be eradicated.

Americans started a free representative republic, out-produced the Axis war machine, and went to the moon, all things the world saw as impossible, and we saw as just a problem to be solved.

And I see this same sort of "can't be done so let's not try" mindset from Germany and France, who seem content with a "let the inspectors do their job" strategy blithely, and purposely I think, unaware that their job is neither to go on a scavenger hunt nor equiped to foil Iraqi efforts to deceive them.

The case is made, and placards about "oil!" and "America stinky!" are shrill, unconvincing, and decidely Old World.

 

[Guest]

Old fool

 

[modest mouse]

Europe has a long history of appeasement. In the last centruy alone stands a significant history of such behaviour. From WWI to Yugoslavia.

Maybe its 'been there, done that' but its unfortuante to so readily accpet that which goes agaisnt basic human advancement.

 

[Zmey]

Violence promotes violence.
You kill a terrorist his son will grow up and kill yours.

What do we do then? Chouse politicians that can actually negotiate and not send in hounds with a first sign of trouble. Having a politician with military past is unacceptable.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

And I see this same sort of "can't be done so let's not try" mindset from Germany and France, who seem content with a "let the inspectors do their job" strategy blithely, and purposely I think, unaware that their job is neither to go on a scavenger hunt nor equiped to foil Iraqi efforts to deceive them.

DCL,

I suspect that the German and French Strategy is to protect their outstanding debt from Bagdad rather then to do what is right.

A friend of mine theorises that there is a good chance that we will find evidence of French and German complicity in Iraqi rearming. Maybe he is right.

On the other hand, they may simply be posturing so if we do fuck up, as unlikely as it would be, they can distance themselves and do a "we told you so" routine.

It is interesting to me that we are getting huge support from the Eastern European Countries.

 

[Lancecastor]

Maybe instead of thinking that Europeans have given up, you could consider that Americans are simply becoming more worldly.

American citizens don't generally learn much about the rest of the world in school or life....whereas Europeans live in closer proximity to multiple cultures, political systems, religions, etc.

Until 9/11 the USA was relatively insulated.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Violence promotes violence.
You kill a terrorist his son will grow up and kill yours.

Not necessarily. Read "The Prince"

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Maybe instead of thinking that Europeans have given up, you could consider that Americans are simply becoming more worldly.

That's a myth. Americans travel more than Eurpeans, and being next to a foreign country means you learn what their money looks like, it doesn't give you special insight into their culture. People all over the world still tend to live in a bubble ten feet around themselves -- how do I get to work, to the barber, to the store?

We've had this discussion about "American Culture" before and the McDonaldand/Disney crap culture thing exists here, there, and everywhere -- but American classic culture is doing just fine, especially considering our art is subsidized by less than .1% of the national budget, compared to the enormous sums spent by other governments (which is to their credit). In other words, Americans are not isolated pop culture dolts any more than Germans are leiderhosen wearing bavarian drunks.

No, I don't buy the "worldly" thing. When you say the Europeans are more "worldy" I ask "which world are you talking about? The nineteenth century?"

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Violence promotes violence.
You kill a terrorist his son will grow up and kill yours.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. That sort of postulate is Old World, and European, and not neccessarily true anymore. It's that kind of thinking that leads to strategies of "containment", which relaly means "containment until they're ready to attack us at a time of their choosing." Americans don't understand that. We see a problem, we prepare a report on how to handle it, we implement the solution. And there is a solution to well financed and rogue nation supported mass terrorism, and I think much of Europe isn't able to conceive of such a thing.

 

[miles]

Violence promotes violence.
You kill a terrorist his son will grow up and kill yours.

That's ridiculous. We aren't talking about street gangs. What's the alternative? While you're trying to understand the terrorist's motive, he's going to kill you.

If you kill a terrorist his son and others may think twice before trying what his father did.

This isn't the Sharks and the Jets, dude.

 

[Lancecastor]

That's a myth. Americans travel more than Eurpeans, and being next to a foreign country means you learn what their money looks like, it doesn't give you special insight into their culture. People all over the world still tend to live in a bubble ten feet around themselves -- how do I get to work, to the barber, to the store?

We've had this discussion about "American Culture" before and the McDonaldand/Disney crap culture thing exists here, there, and everywhere -- but American classic culture is doing just fine, especially considering our art is subsidized by less than .1% of the national budget, compared to the enormous sums spent by other governments (which is to their credit). In other words, Americans are not isolated pop culture dolts any more than Germans are leiderhosen wearing bavarian drunks.

No, I don't buy the "worldly" thing. When you say the Europeans are more "worldy" I ask "which world are you talking about? The nineteenth century?"

Living in close proximity to other countries creates more interaction than the look of their currency, DCL.

In Geneva, for example, people speak French, Swiss, German and often Italian...because it's quite common to drive to France to buy your groceries or to Italy for clothes, etc. Interacting with foreign nationals is a daily occurance.

People in London pop over to The Netherlands for the weekend; Parisians go to Brussels to party.

My basic cable package here in eastern Canada includes Boston PBS, ABC etc television stations with their local news, weather, sports and commercials. In toronto, you get Buffalo stations. In Montreal, Rochester. Etc.

We can get BBC, a Japanese network, a couple of French networks, Skyvision, etc.

But in Boston, basic cable does not include Canadian networks.

In fact, you can't get any Canadian or European feeds in most of the USA even if you wanted them.

Americans have always been less multicultural and less globally aware than people in other G8 countries.

Nobody likes what happened to the USA on 9/11.

But the fact is that the rest of the world has simply not enjoyed the security we've had in North America, and citizens of the USA have been, I suggest, less aware of the rest of the world for so long that 9/11 was a much bigger shock to your country's system than anyone could have imagined.

Blaming the rest of the world doesn't help.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Blaming the rest of the world doesn't help.

You're missing my point. I'm not blaming Europe for anything. I'm talking about the mindset of two cultures, one predisposed to contain problems because they're everlasting, and the other predisposed to eliminate problems because they're not.

 

[Lancecastor]

You're missing my point. I'm not blaming Europe for anything. I'm talking about the mindset of two cultures, one predisposed to contain problems because they're everlasting, and the other predisposed to eliminate problems because they're not.

On that point, I would agree that there's no country better equipped to get going when the going gets tough.

I've said here before that I miss the sense of American Know How, Can-Do the USA used to display in doing things like quickly inventing synthetic rubber in WWII, or going to the moon.

As a freedom-loving people, seeing you build more and more armies and prisons for foreigners to be held without charges strikes me as being a very dark, dim response to the state of the world.

I think the Europeans are quite steady in their reactions and responses to this stuff. Americans tend to want to move quickly.

I'd just like to see the quick action steering more towards innovation and spreading the good news about free democracies and their many advantages instead of bombing the snot out of those who disagree.

 

[Problem Child]

Re: Re: Have Europeans Given Up?

DCL,

I suspect that the German and French Strategy is to protect their outstanding debt from Bagdad rather then to do what is right.

A friend of mine theorises that there is a good chance that we will find evidence of French and German complicity in Iraqi rearming. Maybe he is right.

Frimost, as much as I disagree with the way he interacts with people (especially women) on this board, produced some interesting stats on who exactly supplied arms to Iraq.

#1-Russia, #2- France, #3- Germany. (I might have Germany and France transposed).

The U.S. was actually not even in the top ten countries and accounted for less than 2% of Iraqi arms sales.

It's just as easy for someone to say that France and Germany don't want to have their dirty hands exposed as it is to say the U.S. is in it for oil, or Bush's personal vendetta or whatever.

Easier, in fact.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I hope no one has already said this on the thread but....

Don't you find it interesting that the nations that are the first to support our Iraqi position, are those newly liberated from Soviet control? Some columnist called them the "new Europe" and compared their recent history of totalitarianism as the catalyst for supporting the over-throw of Hussien.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

That's ridiculous. We aren't talking about street gangs. What's the alternative? While you're trying to understand the terrorist's motive, he's going to kill you.

If you kill a terrorist his son and others may think twice before trying what his father did.

This isn't the Sharks and the Jets, dude.

I think you're wrong. The thing about terrorists is that they believe that what they are doing is a good thing. OK, so blowing up a building or murdering a president may not seem like a good thing to you or to the people in the building or to that president, but to the terrorist, who doesn't care about who he's hurting as long as he can prove his point/eliminate his enemy/protect or revenge one of his murdered family members, to him it seems like a great idea.

And if you're mean enough not to let him kill his enemy, you're an enemy too. And if you're so unbelievably evil that you kill the terrorist for doing his rightful murder/bomb planting, etc, then ofcourse his relatives are going to hate you for this, and they will take over and revenge their marture relative.

The only way to break this vicious cycle is to take away the terrorists' motivation for being terrorists. No, I'm not saying "give them what they want", that would only encourage others to become terrorists as well, I'm saying "make them realize that there are more efficient ways of fighting for what they believe is right, other than killing their enemies".

As long as people think that their cause is worth killing for, there will be terrorism and war. And that's a two-way street, you know...

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Americans tend to want to move quickly.

I would replace the word "quickly" with "decisively". The former denotes rashness, the latter leadership. I see nothing "quick" in waiting 12 years for sanctions, inspections and U.N. resolutions to work, particularly after we pulled our Army out of Iraq after the stated mission of Desert Strom was achieved. America isn't about doing it "quickly", but doing it.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

The only way to break this vicious cycle is to take away the terrorists' motivation for being terrorists. No, I'm not saying "give them what they want", that would only encourage others to become terrorists as well, I'm saying "make them realize that there are more efficient ways of fighting for what they believe is right, other than killing their enemies".

Uh, there is also the option of just killing all of them. It is a lot of work though.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I think you're wrong. The thing about terrorists is that they believe that what they are doing is a good thing. OK, so blowing up a building or murdering a president may not seem like a good thing to you or to the people in the building or to that president, but to the terrorist, who doesn't care about who he's hurting as long as he can prove his point/eliminate his enemy/protect or revenge one of his murdered family members, to him it seems like a great idea.

It doesn't wash. Terrorists are not internationally recognized spheres of influence or sovereign nations. If you lash out with bombs without a charter, without trade ties, without some recognition that you respect the world politic then you don't get to lash out with bombs, no matter how worthy you think your cause is. This is the goal of anarchists. Anarchists are not seeking righteousnes for their cause, they're seeking the disruption of the civilzed world from whose ashes will arise a political Phoenix. It's murderous, thoughtless, and has nothing to do with walking the earth in someone else's shoes. Chaos does not get equal consideration.

 

[District Line]

Well, I like the 'can do' attitude of the New World.

That said, isn't organized crime still alive and well in the US? Since the years of prohibition are you anywhere near irradicating the problem or is it bigger and stronger than it ever was?

 

[p_p_man]

If you kill a terrorist his son and others may think twice before trying what his father did.

And in that one phrase you have exposed the soft underbelly of America...

Terrorists will continue terrorising, no matter what. One terrorist group may be destroyed but others will spring up to take its place. Their aims may be different but their methods are the same.

Bush's 'war' on terrorism with his rhetoric of nowhere to hide is as naive as giving a loaded gun to a toddler. Bush's America actually believes it can win a 'war' of this nature, in Europe we've learnt you can't.

Terrorism either has to be absorbed into mainstream politics or defended against in the best possible way.

It's not so much giving up on the situation but being realistic about it...

ppman

 

[District Line]

Re: Re: Have Europeans Given Up?

<snip>

It is interesting to me that we are getting huge support from the Eastern European Countries.

There's more than one thing involved here, the US has the support of governments Eastern Europe but not the public.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

That said, isn't organized crime still alive and well in the US?

No. Since Prohibition was revoked the racketeering laws have gotten stronger, and after the FBI crackdown in the 70s and 80s the Mafia has been crushed beyond recognition or repair. Of course there's organized crim in America. There's organizaed crime everywhere. But it's no longer a secret society with fingers in every pie -- it's had its dick cut off big time. Just ask John Gotti.

Oh, you can't, he died in prison.

And p p man? Your post made no sense at all.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

I would replace the word "quickly" with "decisively". The former denotes rashness, the latter leadership. I see nothing "quick" in waiting 12 years for sanctions, inspections and U.N. resolutions to work, particularly after we pulled our Army out of Iraq after the stated mission of Desert Strom was achieved. America isn't about doing it "quickly", but doing it.

The necessity for American action might also not be present if the Europeans had upheld their end of the containment policy.

 

[p_p_man]

The necessity for American action might also not be present if the Europeans had upheld their end of the containment policy.

I thought Saddam was contained...

Well anyway, he ain't going nowhere...

ppman