Good Manners

[KoPilot]

In an office situation one day, a nice liberal guy was talking about how liberal he was-- his daughter, he said, could bring home a black boyfriend and it "wouldn't bother him." (Being in Chicago, there's a very good chance that this boyfriend would be solidly middle class, though black, which we did NOT get into)

I responded that my SON could, theoretically, bring home his black boyfriend and not only would I "not mind" I would be HAPPY for them.

I do have a gift for shutting down conversation in offices...

Yeeeah you're my hero.

 

[Netzach]

Sadder story: Netzie's stepdad.

A quiet and kind alcoholic who drank himself to death at - 43. I'll be older than he ever got to be soon.

He wanted to go to art school. That was for fags, so he went to Fordham.
He got Hobson's choiced into Vietnam for selling grass.

No son of blah blah blah would ever ever have a POLICE RECORD so he went to do - whatever instead. Whatever would never be discussed and made him drink every night till he puked every morning.

I think a little eefeminization might have saved him a lot of trouble.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Sadder story: Netzie's stepdad.

A quiet and kind alcoholic who drank himself to death at - 43. I'll be older than he ever got to be soon.

He wanted to go to art school. That was for fags, so he went to Fordham.
He got Hobson's choiced into Vietnam for selling grass.

No son of blah blah blah would ever ever have a POLICE RECORD so he went to do - whatever instead. Whatever would never be discussed and made him drink every night till he puked every morning.

I think a little eefeminization might have saved him a lot of trouble.

or maybe his life.

 

[RJMasters]

RJ, let me throw this question back at you. What kinds of things have you passionately wanted to do in your life that you have either been denied or actively opposed from doing specifically because of your gender?

That's a good question.

It all started when I was 17 and left home cause I was a man now. Financially I couldn't afford to pursue things I wanted to.

Anything that held me back from doing the things I wanted in life was mostly from financhial concerns.

I guess you might say that after 1 year of college, I was told that that I didn't qualify for loans to continue my education. But I did notice that some of my friends got gov grants and such. I didn't qualify for those things duing that time because I wasn't considered a minority being a white male.

Admittedly I was bitter about not being able to continue school, but I accepted it wasn't going to happen for me.

From my perspective and it was very small and narrow back then...I heard a lot of talk about equality, yet in my life expereince they were given means to make their lives better. For me...well buck-up buckroo be a man, and here's the tab for the last 300 years. Admitedly I didn't understand why then. And when I sought answers to that, the answers I seem to get were that white men were responsible for killing indians and stealing their land, oppression of women, and slavery of black people (a bit of a dramtization but essentially these were the answers I got). I was just turning 18, I had no comprehension of history to put it into perspective. I was so young I had a hard time even talking to a girl let alone oppress her, and I didn't have much contact with black people growing up in a smal rual area so how could I be racist against people I never even met? What was clear though was I was denied the same opportunities that others seem to get because of the color of their skin or thier gender.


So I did what many poor young people do who don't have options or opportunity, I joined the military in the hopes I could earned a chance to return to college. That was one of the benies for serving at that time and I still believe it is.

I served for 8 years, I would have served longer but broke my ankle in three place and will never have full use of it again. While serving, I saw times where women got promoted over their male counterparts in order to fill certain quotas passed down from HQ(as to how I know this, I filled out the reports and saw that the quotas were not only acheivement based but also gender based). And yes I was in the pool of selectees a number of times. If there were 2 positions open for promotion, I knew there was really only one, because by default one would be awarded to one of the females.

I did manage to get married to a woman marine, we are still married after many happy years together. Had two great girls who are full of life. I have been busy working most of my whole life to make sure they have a better start than I did.

Years later I did finally manage to go back to college and use those millatary benefits and I earned my BS degree after all these years. I was the first person in my family's generation to ever earn a degree. I have fulfilled some of my dreams as I took on a 3rd job to work as a college teacher. Back in the day, that was one of my highest scores on my amptitude test. I am also proud of the fact that as a teacher, I have one of the highest rating of their students to go on and find work in the world after they graduate at the campus I teach at. I was featured in an educational magazine as one who came from nothing and made good by eanring their way through the military.

I now work for a company who is going to help change the world. Its a new kind of biodiesel company that makes negative carbon fuel. It will help rebalance the bio footprint of human activity. I also have helped launch a multimillion dollar HR company that is helping people to get back to work.

I have had many of my 3d digital designs published in various magazines.

My conclusion of the matter....regardless of how hard it may have been for me, or whether I was discreminated against or not, I took responsibility for my own life and worked hard. I earned everything I got. I don't see this as being a man, I see this as being a human being. The three jobs I work are all dedicated in someway to helping others and bettering their way of life.

In the end it really is about choice. I didn't have many choices in my life, but the one choice I did have was to keep on working hard and never give up.

To answer your question...have I ever in my lifetime been denied or actively opposed from doing something I passionately wanted specifically because of my gender.

Yes

If your asking how did that make me feel, was it bad, really really bad or OMG fucking reallyreallyreally bad....I would say at 18 it was really really bad. If you ask me today how I feel about it, I would say the biggest challenge to anyone today faces whether your a woman, man, black, white, young or old...etc.. is financial.

 

[RJMasters]

how bad would it be for you to have no choice? No choice of who to marry, possessions from prior to marriage becoming the property of your spouse, having no say in who runs your country. getting paid a fraction of what the opposite sex gets paid for the same work.

I'd shoot first and ask questions later.

 

[RJMasters]

When someone asks me what time period I'd most like to live in, it's not any time in the past when women had less rights. It's now or the future.

FF

Very understandable.

 

[RJMasters]

My father has an older cousin, a woman who graduated from Pembroke in the early '40's. (Pembroke = the women's college affiliated with Brown, before Brown went co-ed.) Let's call her "N."

When N graduated, she moved to NYC to work as a journalist. Wrote articles for a newspaper, did a great job, and loved it. Got promoted to junior editor. Lived in her own apartment, paid her own bills.

When the war was over, she was literally told - thanks for helping out, you were great, now you can go home, get married, start a family. She loved her job, didn't want to leave it, and said so. But her boss said she had to go, or it wouldn't be fair to the men.

She describes her available options, post-war, as being a secretary or elementary school teacher. Neither paid enough for her to live on her own, so she moved back in with her parents. Taught for a while, hated it, and got married a few years later. Loved her husband, hated keeping house, found an outlet for her journalism skills writing newsletters for various local charities. That's not nothing, but it's a long, long way from writing & editing for a newspaper in Manhattan.

How bad was that, really? On the scale of no big deal to monumental tragedy, it seems closer to the former than the latter. Particularly when put in the context of human misery, the world over. But does that placement on the scale mean the injustice in hiring practices should never have been remedied? I don't think so.

Shifting now to a different perspective - my grandparents employed a housekeeper, "M." A woman born in 1915, who started working for the family when she 16 years old, and stayed until she retired at age 70. (My grandfather paid the difference between her old salary & her SS check until she died.) As far as I know, there was never any question as to whether M would be working, for as long as she was able. She just did. Different choice issues exist, from that perspective.

You know I don't begrudge the men that returned from war, but I agree that the it sucked badly that women were forced out to accomendate those returning.

The question I have is, did they try to force women out because they were women, or because they were trying to give those who served their jobs back because there was just not enough jobs to go around?

I mean no matter how you look at that... its fucked up right?

Its unfair if they take away the jobs from women and give them to men who are returning from the war.

Its just as unfair to expect men... those same men to leave their families and put their lives in harms way to go fight some fuckhead german bent on world domination and then come back and say to them...hey thanks for all you did but we're sorry the women have all taken over the jobs and there's just nothing available for you.

 

[RJMasters]

I think I am battle scarred.

the "right to say no" but the right to say "Yes" or be the one asking the question-- That was a battle I fought as well.

Wonds heal, chicks dig scars and glory...glory lasts forever.

 

[Duncan1981]

Wonds heal, chicks dig scars and glory...glory lasts forever.

Great movie.

 

[JMohegan]

You know I don't begrudge the men that returned from war, but I agree that the it sucked badly that women were forced out to accomendate those returning.

The question I have is, did they try to force women out because they were women, or because they were trying to give those who served their jobs back because there was just not enough jobs to go around?

I mean no matter how you look at that... its fucked up right?

Its unfair if they take away the jobs from women and give them to men who are returning from the war.

Its just as unfair to expect men... those same men to leave their families and put their lives in harms way to go fight some fuckhead german bent on world domination and then come back and say to them...hey thanks for all you did but we're sorry the women have all taken over the jobs and there's just nothing available for you.

It wasn't just a matter of letting the survivors return to their seats. Those positions had been unavailable to women, pre-war, and would remain unavailable for decades after.

Ideally, every job would be held by the person most capable of filling it. But the world's not ideal, obviously. It's messy, as you know.

 

[Keroin]

That's a good question.

It all started when I was 17 and left home cause I was a man now. Financially I couldn't afford to pursue things I wanted to.

Anything that held me back from doing the things I wanted in life was mostly from financhial concerns.

I guess you might say that after 1 year of college, I was told that that I didn't qualify for loans to continue my education. But I did notice that some of my friends got gov grants and such. I didn't qualify for those things duing that time because I wasn't considered a minority being a white male.

Admittedly I was bitter about not being able to continue school, but I accepted it wasn't going to happen for me.

From my perspective and it was very small and narrow back then...I heard a lot of talk about equality, yet in my life expereince they were given means to make their lives better. For me...well buck-up buckroo be a man, and here's the tab for the last 300 years. Admitedly I didn't understand why then. And when I sought answers to that, the answers I seem to get were that white men were responsible for killing indians and stealing their land, oppression of women, and slavery of black people (a bit of a dramtization but essentially these were the answers I got). I was just turning 18, I had no comprehension of history to put it into perspective. I was so young I had a hard time even talking to a girl let alone oppress her, and I didn't have much contact with black people growing up in a smal rual area so how could I be racist against people I never even met? What was clear though was I was denied the same opportunities that others seem to get because of the color of their skin or thier gender.


So I did what many poor young people do who don't have options or opportunity, I joined the military in the hopes I could earned a chance to return to college. That was one of the benies for serving at that time and I still believe it is.

I served for 8 years, I would have served longer but broke my ankle in three place and will never have full use of it again. While serving, I saw times where women got promoted over their male counterparts in order to fill certain quotas passed down from HQ(as to how I know this, I filled out the reports and saw that the quotas were not only acheivement based but also gender based). And yes I was in the pool of selectees a number of times. If there were 2 positions open for promotion, I knew there was really only one, because by default one would be awarded to one of the females.

I did manage to get married to a woman marine, we are still married after many happy years together. Had two great girls who are full of life. I have been busy working most of my whole life to make sure they have a better start than I did.

Years later I did finally manage to go back to college and use those millatary benefits and I earned my BS degree after all these years. I was the first person in my family's generation to ever earn a degree. I have fulfilled some of my dreams as I took on a 3rd job to work as a college teacher. Back in the day, that was one of my highest scores on my amptitude test. I am also proud of the fact that as a teacher, I have one of the highest rating of their students to go on and find work in the world after they graduate at the campus I teach at. I was featured in an educational magazine as one who came from nothing and made good by eanring their way through the military.

I now work for a company who is going to help change the world. Its a new kind of biodiesel company that makes negative carbon fuel. It will help rebalance the bio footprint of human activity. I also have helped launch a multimillion dollar HR company that is helping people to get back to work.

I have had many of my 3d digital designs published in various magazines.

My conclusion of the matter....regardless of how hard it may have been for me, or whether I was discreminated against or not, I took responsibility for my own life and worked hard. I earned everything I got. I don't see this as being a man, I see this as being a human being. The three jobs I work are all dedicated in someway to helping others and bettering their way of life.

In the end it really is about choice. I didn't have many choices in my life, but the one choice I did have was to keep on working hard and never give up.

To answer your question...have I ever in my lifetime been denied or actively opposed from doing something I passionately wanted specifically because of my gender.

Yes

If your asking how did that make me feel, was it bad, really really bad or OMG fucking reallyreallyreally bad....I would say at 18 it was really really bad. If you ask me today how I feel about it, I would say the biggest challenge to anyone today faces whether your a woman, man, black, white, young or old...etc.. is financial.

So, if you had had enough money to get into college, your gender wouldn't have mattered?

I'm not trying to be flippant or sarcastic. And I do subscribe to the "nut up or shut up" philosophy myself. I succeeded in a male field with constant obstacles (and more than one instance of sexual harassment) in my path. I did not come from money, either. I left home at 18, because I was an adult and it was time to make it on my own. Blah, blah, blah.

But sexism exists, I can't deny that. It's getting better but it exists.

And I'm sorry but you weren't denied entry to college because of your gender. You didn't have enough money. I was in the exact same boat as you when I went to uni. No one was handing out free grants to anyone with a vagina, let me tell you. I worked my tail off to get a scholarship (based on grades alone, not gender) and I spent my summers working back-to-back waitressing jobs, to pay rent and bills.

As for the Marines, yeah, it sucks that one of the two jobs would be guaranteed to go to a woman, if that was the case. But there was one position open to a man correct? No one told you "You CAN'T apply for this promotion because you are a man" did they? Did the senior officers try to stop you from getting the one position that was open because you were a man? The rules of the game might have been a bit unfair but you were not denied or opposed from playing the game and succeeding.

 

[Keroin]

Just to make this clear, in case it's not. I am not anti-male, (quite the opposite), nor do I feel that the hardships and struggles men have faced, and do face, are any less deserving of our concern.

However, I do also know that long term, systematic and social inequality and oppression fall into a different category than generic hardship.

 

[teknight]

Just to make this clear, in case it's not. I am not anti-male, (quite the opposite), nor do I feel that the hardships and struggles men have faced, and do face, are any less deserving of our concern.

However, I do also know that long term, systematic and social inequality and oppression fall into a different category than generic hardship.

But dudes have it hard! *snerk*

We should be coddled as we lose our "inherent" and "obvious" privilege...or, you know, we should nut up in the face of competition.

 

[Primalex]

RJ, let me throw this question back at you. What kinds of things have you passionately wanted to do in your life that you have either been denied or actively opposed from doing specifically because of your gender?

Home economics.

When I picked this, I had to have a talk with the school principal. We "agreed" that I pick something else. Somehow nobody didn't get it that I viewed self-sufficiency as something very desirable for a male person. Okay, that's 20 years ago, no idea how it is now.

(And no, I don't believe this experience shows or proves anything. I think attemps to balance unfairness in one way or the other is silly. How many "unfairness points" do snippy remarks get? And how much a job opportunity withheld?
Let's face it, there is always someone on this planet who still has a worse life than anyone of us here. So someone will always beat you in the "My life is more difficult than yours" competition.)

 

[teknight]

Home economics.

When I picked this, I had to have a talk with the school principal. We "agreed" that I pick something else. Somehow nobody didn't get it that I viewed self-sufficiency as something very desirable for a male person. Okay, that's 20 years ago, no idea how it is now.

(And no, I don't believe this experience shows or proves anything. I think attemps to balance unfairness in one way or the other is silly. How many "unfairness points" do snippy remarks get? And how much a job opportunity withheld?
Let's face it, there is always someone on this planet who still has a worse life than anyone of us here. So someone will always beat you in the "My life is more difficult than yours" competition.)

So?
If I'm not the one suffering the most of the bunch, then my problems can be discounted?

OT: the first quote in your sig is missing an "s".

 

[Primalex]

So?
If I'm not the one suffering the most of the bunch, then my problems can be discounted?

Yes, of course.

 

[Netzach]

Home economics.

When I picked this, I had to have a talk with the school principal. We "agreed" that I pick something else. Somehow nobody didn't get it that I viewed self-sufficiency as something very desirable for a male person. Okay, that's 20 years ago, no idea how it is now.

(And no, I don't believe this experience shows or proves anything. I think attemps to balance unfairness in one way or the other is silly. How many "unfairness points" do snippy remarks get? And how much a job opportunity withheld?
Let's face it, there is always someone on this planet who still has a worse life than anyone of us here. So someone will always beat you in the "My life is more difficult than yours" competition.)

This is kind of the point I've been trying to make.

The idea that man=will have little woman to wipe his ass doesn't need to know how to cook a decent meal for himself on a budget should go build something they make in china now in shop

isn't a triumph of traditional values.

 

[Netzach]

No one was handing out free grants to anyone with a vagina, let me tell you.

Busted. That's why I got MY pell grants and scholarships.


Why don't people get grants? Shit luck. Different academic demands. Approaching different institutions. Not having access to the information it takes to get through application (M got into RISD but his parents didn't know how financial aid works so they said "we can't afford it" before even putting a package together) there are a million reasons. Of all the people I knew on serious hefty FA programs in college, there were about equal numbers of men and women, and it was a rainbow of flavor that included a lot of white people as well. Plenty of farm boys in the mix.

You can go into the service, you can do a 2 year program in anything accredited and transfer, there are a lot of paths to the university. Unfortunatley the FA situation is going to be worse before it gets better.

 

[teknight]

This is kind of the point I've been trying to make.

The idea that man=will have little woman to wipe his ass doesn't need to know how to cook a decent meal for himself on a budget should go build something they make in china now in shop

isn't a triumph of traditional values.

Makes me wonder what is a triumph of traditional values...

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'd shoot first and ask questions later.

Which is exactly what some women have done-- and the names that (all) feminist get called on account of that!

Home economics.

When I picked this, I had to have a talk with the school principal. We "agreed" that I pick something else. Somehow nobody didn't get it that I viewed self-sufficiency as something very desirable for a male person. Okay, that's 20 years ago, no idea how it is now.

(And no, I don't believe this experience shows or proves anything. I think attemps to balance unfairness in one way or the other is silly. How many "unfairness points" do snippy remarks get? And how much a job opportunity withheld?
Let's face it, there is always someone on this planet who still has a worse life than anyone of us here. So someone will always beat you in the "My life is more difficult than yours" competition.)

it isn't a competition, it's a discussion. Your experience twenty years ago is similar to mine forty years ago-- mine was exacerbated by lots and lots of other experiences that all added up to the same message.

 

[JMohegan]

Just to make this clear, in case it's not. I am not anti-male, (quite the opposite), nor do I feel that the hardships and struggles men have faced, and do face, are any less deserving of our concern.

However, I do also know that long term, systematic and social inequality and oppression fall into a different category than generic hardship.

I won't speak for whatever goes on in Canada, but in the US I'd say that RJ is absolutely right. Money is what matters.

As in - a girl born to educated, affluent parents will have enormous advantages relative to a boy born to uneducated, poor rural folk. And that's been true since the day they opened higher education and professional fields to women.

Money gets you quality early education, health care, nutrition, extracurriculars, tutoring, whatever you need to get a leg up in college applications. Not to mention tuition.

So the relevant comparison I see is between RJ, and a female his age born with otherwise similar demographics. What were her opportunities, relative to his?

Somehow I'm struggling with the notion that the Marine Corps was a chance for a female to leapfrog ahead of her male counterpart. Call me cynical, but I find it tough to believe that an organization that's so rabidly homophobic in 2010 was somehow pro-female in decades prior.

I'm not saying RJ's lying about the lower level promotions; I'm just scratching my head and thinking there must be more to that story. According to this, even today women make up only 6% of the Corps, and are restricted in terms of what jobs they can do. And that alone tells us nothing about the relatively welcoming or hostile nature of the environment.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Twenty years ago, women in the Marine Corps (AND seven men!) might have encountered a situation similar to this one;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal

 

[Keroin]

So the relevant comparison I see is between RJ, and a female his age born with otherwise similar demographics. What were her opportunities, relative to his?

Yes, good point.

Somehow I'm struggling with the notion that the Marine Corps was a chance for a female to leapfrog ahead of her male counterpart. Call me cynical, but I find it tough to believe that an organization that's so rabidly homophobic in 2010 was somehow pro-female in decades prior.

I'm not saying RJ's lying about the lower level promotions; I'm just scratching my head and thinking there must be more to that story. According to this, even today women make up only 6% of the Corps, and are restricted in terms of what jobs they can do. And that alone tells us nothing about the relatively welcoming or hostile nature of the environment.

Yes, I also find it hard to believe that the military is the land of opportunity for women and that men are getting left behind and their rights trampled. I do have a friend who was in the Canadian military, he never spoke of problems getting promoted because of women. His complaint was mostly that to get to where he wanted to be (Airborne) he had to run the bureaucratic maze first. But that's Canada, can't speak for the US.

 

[gurnoor]

hey r u online now

 

[where]

Home economics.

When I picked this, I had to have a talk with the school principal. We "agreed" that I pick something else. Somehow nobody didn't get it that I viewed self-sufficiency as something very desirable for a male person. Okay, that's 20 years ago, no idea how it is now.

(And no, I don't believe this experience shows or proves anything. I think attemps to balance unfairness in one way or the other is silly. How many "unfairness points" do snippy remarks get? And how much a job opportunity withheld?
Let's face it, there is always someone on this planet who still has a worse life than anyone of us here. So someone will always beat you in the "My life is more difficult than yours" competition.)

yeah, well patriarchy also works in a way to oppress men. Point is is you were denied home ec. because it was demeaning for you as a man.

hey r u online now

ys i am cn u msg me now.