Gender Bending

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

HUMBUG

I wrote an editorial earlier about the idea of Hillary as Lucy. I need to do some cartoons with Hillary as Lucy and Bill as Ricky in the White House.

I cant help myself, things just pop into my head. And they not feeling at home in my mind, leave as quickly as possible.

 

[JMohegan]

I feared this question would come up as honestly ... the more I think about it the more it gets confusing ...lol

Prefacing that I do not assume that female (sex) = feminine (personality) and same for male and masculine, I guess I'll have to go with the stereotypes:

masculine = hard, extrovert, action oriented, goal oriented, single focused, fighter, self-reliant, penetrant, dominant

feminine = soft, introspective, word oriented, details oriented, multi-tasker, nurturer, cooperative, receptive, submissive

... and with the last pair of carachteristic I am sure I have just digged my own flaming hell ...

Thanks for responding, Rida. I agree that the subject is confusing as heck! This thread, in particular, seems to be addressing quite a variety of topics, the blurring of which is adding to my own personal confusion as to what people are really trying to say.

I appreciate your willingness to provide working definitions of masculine and feminine in this context, and will employ them in responding to your earlier comment from post 175.

Sudden thought: if a well rounded person is a person that is in touch with both their feminine and masculine side, can we draw a parallel and say that SWITCHES are potentially better rounded persons than pure Doms or subs? Or is it a bit like apples and oranges as a SWITCH is like a BI, and you can be in touch with both your masculine and feminine side even if you are 99.9% straight?

I appreciate your prefatory remark about males and females, and of course I agree. Further, I'll note that pressure on individuals toward strict conformance to stereotypes (i.e., males to the masculine side and females to the feminine) is dehumanizing on the one hand, and debilitating on the other.

However, I have found that pressure to move toward some sort of "well-rounded" middle ground can be dehumanizing as well.

Some individuals really are pretty far out there on the spectrum of masculine vs. feminine personality traits. I believe it is important for such a person to develop the self-confidence and maturity to express him/herself in an alternate way - when necessary, appropriate, or desired. But I reject the idea that balanced is always better, or that the middle of the spectrum is a place we should all strive to be in terms of self-expression. In some cases, "well-rounded" is not more natural, will not make the individual happier, and will not make him/her a more productive, compassionate, or amiable member of society.

I'm not sure if you meant to imply that well-rounded is a positive trait when you wrote: "a well rounded person is a person that is in touch with both their feminine and masculine side." I would be interested to know if did, and if so, why?

 

[Netzach]

rida's not positing anything new, JM. It works from your average Enlightenment to Romantic stretch of thinkin' - it's healthy for our young man to go to war and screw heartily and hold his head high AND to wander off, a chylde of nature, mysterious and perfect'ly made, inscrutable of soul, into the woods and into nature and wax poetic with his nose in the dead leaves.

It's kind of a yin/yang thing that doesn't involve lipstick.


As someone with few traits that light up the "female" half of the board, I have to agree, forcing me to get more nurturing is pretty futile.

The issue isn't one of making everyone take some middle ground, to me it's opening up the options so that it doesn't automatically follow that having a pussy forbids me from being well...all that INTP architectural stuff and not "oooo babies, yay." Nor does not having a pussy mean that my ex would not so clearly have been the obvious stay home parent had we gone that route in life.

Early feminism decries the fact that there are pink and blue lego sets. Lego should be school bus yellow and red!

Later feminism just decries that everyone makes a giant judgement call about you based on which ones you *want* to play with. You can play with both. You can make a blue castle with pink wall. It's just lego, it's just clothing, it's just behavior, and you can try it all out.

 

[unfoundiamond]

By well rounded I mean....

Jmohegan~

EVERYTHING I am about to say is my opinion, (this should go without saying but...)

I gender bending taught me what it is like to be the outsider, and now I am more accepting of all the diffrent things I see people display in RL,

I don't allow myself to judge based on looks... If I catch myself doing it, I rememeber what it was like to have it done to me, and I will pass that onto my children, that discrimination is WRONG... that makes me more well rounded,

Um, I see how people are shallow and will treat me diffrently based on how I am dressed so I know to not let random shit get to me because society is very looks based for the most part, and people can decide to hate you based on things you can't control, You can't control how you are percieved, only what you say, be a example to others and honest and postitve and things will come around...

It taught me the diffrence between men being men and men liking me for who I am....

Everything gender bending taught me made me well rounded in my perception of the big picture of life... and I am very glad for the expirience, though some of it was very painful

I think that if the closed minded tried gender bending would teach people why hate crimes need to stop, I think if some of these gay bashers and hate crime committers had to put a dress and some lipstick on and go walk around any bigoted area and had a little taste of the feeling of being threatened and beaten for your clothes would show them, No one has the right to beat you or rape you (without your consent) for what you are wearing, ever, and that lesson in tolerance would be a example of making someone more well rounded, seing the big picture that acceptance is what people want for themself for themself from society, so don't deny it to others...

I could go on and on... but, I hope this clarifies something...

 

[Shankara20]

The world cries out in need of riggers. I will answer that call...

But, alas, my primary duty is to the citizens of my own fair metropolis.

*strikes heroic pose with a coil of rope hanging from his belt*

was it not Wonder Woman that used rope?

just askin?

 

[Shankara20]

No no no. The real dignity-killer would be that hairy ass in my cute panties. 'Cause the panties would be way too small.

damn!
I also suffer from male-pattern-hairy-assness (anyone here NOT seen those pics of my hairy behind?) and I was starting to think I might get a fair chance at getting one of your panties...

*sigh*

 

[DeservingBitch]

damn!
I also suffer from male-pattern-hairy-assness (anyone here NOT seen those pics of my hairy behind?) and I was starting to think I might get a fair chance at getting one of your panties...

*sigh*

Hey - I'm happy to send panties your way. But the difference is that you wear panties in a very dignified way. Somehow, Homburg wearing panties (mine or not) just makes me giggle. Like me trying to pull of 'butch' or something. Nothing dignified about that.

Conclusion: it's not the fur that matters -- it's how you wear the fur.

 

[Homburg]

was it not Wonder Woman that used rope?

just askin?

I would be a woman for a day or three if I could have a body like Lynda Grey's.

And Wonder Woman was alllll about some bondage. All kinds of it in the early WW comics.

--

Hey - I'm happy to send panties your way. But the difference is that you wear panties in a very dignified way. Somehow, Homburg wearing panties (mine or not) just makes me giggle. Like me trying to pull of 'butch' or something. Nothing dignified about that.

Conclusion: it's not the fur that matters -- it's how you wear the fur.

A) It disturbs me that my hairy ass is a topic of conversation

B) I have seen your rear end, DB. I'd be amazed if I could get your cute panties around one leg. My right thigh* looks to be about as big as your waist =P

C) The competitive side of me almost said "Well send me your panties and we'll see, so long as I get something in return." I did not, however, say this, as I would inevitably find myself opening a box with panties inside and wondering how I got myself into this situation.

D) And while I'm happy to provide straight lines on occassion, I'm not going to completely prostitute what little dignity I have for on-line amusement.

E) And, yea verily, no pictures of my hairy ass shall passeth onto the internet. So shall it be written, so shall it be done.


* - My thighs are seriously thick. My arms are weedy, but thighs, yeah, got those. 28" at last measurement, probably why my back squat and DL are good and my bench sucks...

 

[Shankara20]

Hey - I'm happy to send panties your way. But the difference is that you wear panties in a very dignified way. Somehow, Homburg wearing panties (mine or not) just makes me giggle. Like me trying to pull of 'butch' or something. Nothing dignified about that.

Conclusion: it's not the fur that matters -- it's how you wear the fur.

oh my
send me panties?
oh my

I'll even post pics if you want

oh my
oh my


Shanks mailing address by PM if requested


oh my
oh my

 

[JMohegan]

rida's not positing anything new, JM. It works from your average Enlightenment to Romantic stretch of thinkin' - it's healthy for our young man to go to war and screw heartily and hold his head high AND to wander off, a chylde of nature, mysterious and perfect'ly made, inscrutable of soul, into the woods and into nature and wax poetic with his nose in the dead leaves.

It's kind of a yin/yang thing that doesn't involve lipstick.

Very entertaining phraseology! I lol'd.

Not new indeed, though I confess that my focus is more solipsistic than millennial, i.e., I would say it's not new because I have felt the pressure to move toward middle ground for my entire life.

It is difficult to know what pressures were actually experienced by the average guy centuries ago. I tend to discount Enlightened or Romantic writings on the masculine, noting that a brain functioning at least in the middle of the scale would be required for the inclination toward, and successful drafting of, such introspective & word-oriented texts.

As someone with few traits that light up the "female" half of the board, I have to agree, forcing me to get more nurturing is pretty futile.

The issue isn't one of making everyone take some middle ground, to me it's opening up the options so that it doesn't automatically follow that having a pussy forbids me from being well...all that INTP architectural stuff and not "oooo babies, yay." Nor does not having a pussy mean that my ex would not so clearly have been the obvious stay home parent had we gone that route in life.

Early feminism decries the fact that there are pink and blue lego sets. Lego should be school bus yellow and red!

Later feminism just decries that everyone makes a giant judgement call about you based on which ones you *want* to play with. You can play with both. You can make a blue castle with pink wall. It's just lego, it's just clothing, it's just behavior, and you can try it all out.

I agree with the goal of opening up options and encouraging experimentation across traditional gender roles.

I would add that the tendency to deride males operating at the far end of the masculine spectrum, and females operating at the far end of the feminine, should be squelched whenever possible.

A preponderance of masculine traits in a male does not necessarily equate to communication-challenged, boorish, male chauvinist prick. Nor is it fair to assume that a preponderance of feminine traits in a female equates to simpering, low self-esteem, doormat. Recognizing this is key to avoiding those "giant judgment calls," in my opinion.

 

[rida]

Thanks for responding, Rida. I agree that the subject is confusing as heck! This thread, in particular, seems to be addressing quite a variety of topics, the blurring of which is adding to my own personal confusion as to what people are really trying to say.

.....

Further, I'll note that pressure on individuals toward strict conformance to stereotypes (i.e., males to the masculine side and females to the feminine) is dehumanizing on the one hand, and debilitating on the other.

However, I have found that pressure to move toward some sort of "well-rounded" middle ground can be dehumanizing as well.

......

I'm not sure if you meant to imply that well-rounded is a positive trait when you wrote: "a well rounded person is a person that is in touch with both their feminine and masculine side." I would be interested to know if did, and if so, why?

There are too many directions, approach to this subject, and I myself have many conflicting thoughts.

Yes, I agree with you that a "pressure toward the middle ground" is as dehumanizing as the pressure to stay at one end of the spectrum.
Pressuring somebody to be what they are not is never good. On the other end, an irrational refusal to come to term with opposite trait is also not good.

To me "whole rounded person" mean someone that it is aware of their nature, their orientation, and do not feel threatened or afraid of being themselves whether it agrees with society expectations or not.

That means that if CD is not for you, there no need for you to try it, and you should not feel as if you have to so to not be labelled as a repressed male-chauvinist or the female analogues. And on the same token just because you like to wear make-up/skirts if a male, or no make-up/only slacks if a female, you should no have to hide it for fear to be labelled as a gay/lesbian/transgender.

Than again I remember the movie "Boys don't cry" ... and even it extreme, I realize that society is nowhere near being so tollerant ...

Anyway Netzach in post #203 and you in post #210 have already written what I am trying to say in deeper and more articulate way, but here are my 2 yen.

 

[rida]

....

C) The competitive side of me almost said "Well send me your panties and we'll see, so long as I get something in return." I did not, however, say this, as I would inevitably find myself opening a box with panties inside and wondering how I got myself into this situation.

......

.... .... .....

 

[rida]

.....

I gender bending taught me what it is like to be the outsider, and now I am more accepting of all the diffrent things I see people display in RL,

I don't allow myself to judge based on looks... If I catch myself doing it, I rememeber what it was like to have it done to me, and I will pass that onto my children, that discrimination is WRONG... that makes me more well rounded,

Um, I see how people are shallow and will treat me diffrently based on how I am dressed so I know to not let random shit get to me because society is very looks based for the most part, and people can decide to hate you based on things you can't control, You can't control how you are percieved, only what you say, be a example to others and honest and postitve and things will come around...

........

Everything gender bending taught me made me well rounded in my perception of the big picture of life... and I am very glad for the expirience, though some of it was very painful

.......

I learned the same thing without bending any gender ... just because of my having a foot in two different cultures.
And like you, from my experience, I learned to be tollerant and not judgemental.

It would be educational if more people could experience what it feels to be an outsider.

But I can see how you could also go the other way and in trying to fit in became the most judgemental, heatred-filled, closed mind person possible.

I think which way you go boils down to self-acceptance. And self-acceptance is ultimately what makes you well-rounded (even if you have spikes )

 

[Netzach]

Very entertaining phraseology! I lol'd.

Not new indeed, though I confess that my focus is more solipsistic than millennial, i.e., I would say it's not new because I have felt the pressure to move toward middle ground for my entire life.

It is difficult to know what pressures were actually experienced by the average guy centuries ago. I tend to discount Enlightened or Romantic writings on the masculine, noting that a brain functioning at least in the middle of the scale would be required for the inclination toward, and successful drafting of, such introspective & word-oriented texts.

I agree with the goal of opening up options and encouraging experimentation across traditional gender roles.

I would add that the tendency to deride males operating at the far end of the masculine spectrum, and females operating at the far end of the feminine, should be squelched whenever possible.

A preponderance of masculine traits in a male does not necessarily equate to communication-challenged, boorish, male chauvinist prick. Nor is it fair to assume that a preponderance of feminine traits in a female equates to simpering, low self-esteem, doormat. Recognizing this is key to avoiding those "giant judgment calls," in my opinion.

Eh sorta.

I think wondering WTF is up with people who never consider anything other than what's easiest is a good thing. If you want to be it, you can work as hard to be it as anyone who doesn't have it all handed to them as a matter of logical foregone conclusion and come out the better, no?

Derision, no, asking if you're doing something because it's you or because you think it has to be, is a valid question. A preponderance of traits doesn't make anyone anything - a fear of accessing what you need to function as a compassionate, rational, responsible adult because you're worried about whether it messes up a rigid sense of gender identity is, I'll be happy to call it out - fucked up. Yields nothing good. I remember your "crying coach" anecdote - the example in line with that would be someone so wrapped up in his own shit that he would conclude at the end of that story...

"pussy."

 

[DeservingBitch]

oh my
send me panties?
oh my

I'll even post pics if you want

oh my
oh my


Shanks mailing address by PM if requested


oh my
oh my

You know what to do to get them.

Geez - with my new boy wanting to wear my panties, and Shank and Homburg almost ready to fight over what's left, I'll soon have to go commando.

 

[rida]

.......

Derision, no, asking if you're doing something because it's you or because you think it has to be, is a valid question. A preponderance of traits doesn't make anyone anything - a fear of accessing what you need to function as a compassionate, rational, responsible adult because you're worried about whether it messes up a rigid sense of gender identity is, I'll be happy to call it out - fucked up. Yields nothing good. I remember your "crying coach" anecdote - the example in line with that would be someone so wrapped up in his own shit that he would conclude at the end of that story...

"pussy."

that was the story I had in mind as well when typing my reply ...

(if I am starting to have some similar thinking processes ... maybe next I'll be as witty ... )

 

[JMohegan]

Eh sorta.

I think wondering WTF is up with people who never consider anything other than what's easiest is a good thing. If you want to be it, you can work as hard to be it as anyone who doesn't have it all handed to them as a matter of logical foregone conclusion and come out the better, no?

Derision, no, asking if you're doing something because it's you or because you think it has to be, is a valid question. A preponderance of traits doesn't make anyone anything - a fear of accessing what you need to function as a compassionate, rational, responsible adult because you're worried about whether it messes up a rigid sense of gender identity is, I'll be happy to call it out - fucked up. Yields nothing good. I remember your "crying coach" anecdote - the example in line with that would be someone so wrapped up in his own shit that he would conclude at the end of that story...

"pussy."

All of this is exactly what I was referring to when I wrote, in post 202 above, the following summary of my view:

"Some individuals really are pretty far out there on the spectrum of masculine vs. feminine personality traits. I believe it is important for such a person to develop the self-confidence and maturity to express him/herself in an alternate way - when necessary, appropriate, or desired. But I reject the idea that balanced is always better, or that the middle of the spectrum is a place we should all strive to be in terms of self-expression. In some cases, "well-rounded" is not more natural, will not make the individual happier, and will not make him/her a more productive, compassionate, or amiable member of society."

 

[JMohegan]

There are too many directions, approach to this subject, and I myself have many conflicting thoughts.

Yes, I agree with you that a "pressure toward the middle ground" is as dehumanizing as the pressure to stay at one end of the spectrum.
Pressuring somebody to be what they are not is never good. On the other end, an irrational refusal to come to term with opposite trait is also not good.

To me "whole rounded person" mean someone that it is aware of their nature, their orientation, and do not feel threatened or afraid of being themselves whether it agrees with society expectations or not.

That means that if CD is not for you, there no need for you to try it, and you should not feel as if you have to so to not be labelled as a repressed male-chauvinist or the female analogues. And on the same token just because you like to wear make-up/skirts if a male, or no make-up/only slacks if a female, you should no have to hide it for fear to be labelled as a gay/lesbian/transgender.

Than again I remember the movie "Boys don't cry" ... and even it extreme, I realize that society is nowhere near being so tollerant ...

Anyway Netzach in post #203 and you in post #210 have already written what I am trying to say in deeper and more articulate way, but here are my 2 yen.

I like the way you define "whole rounded person" here. That sums up my view of a mature, self-confident person very well.

To be honest, I don't really understand what cross dressing has to do with my comments, though. I see clothes and grooming choices as relating to male/female cultural identification. In contrast, masculine and feminine personality traits, as you defined them, don't have anything to do with skirts and pants.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Talking about gender bending: today is the Trans Day of Remembrance, meant "to memorialize those who were killed due to anti-transgender hatred or prejudice. The event is held in November to honor Rita Hester, whose murder on November 28th, 1998 kicked off the “Remembering Our Dead” web project and a San Francisco candlelight vigil in 1999. Rita Hester’s murder — like most anti-transgender murder cases — has yet to be solved ". (from the official website)

 

[unfoundiamond]

*wow*

So Deserving~

Before I saw your post and wondered how I could be the only one to talk about the need to end hate crimes against transgendered people, and then I saw your post... and I want to say it made me happy... but it made me sad too, about the woman, and how they have to have a day to demember our lost transgendered brothers and sisters, very sad, as I feel I could have ended up like this, me or any other TG person(or persons who aren't TG even, a butch lesbians or femme gay guys can be confused for CD's or TG'ed.

I am one of these people who, by force and fear, had to move to the middle if I wanted a safe, decent, life. (Couldn't get hired, got harrassed everywhere)

I am not saying that everyone should have to be "somewhere in the middle"
That would be boring- I am saying well rounded in expiriences... Having expiriences from all perspectives... makes a well rounded person...

I am not saying "make" all the really masculine males be girly,

I am saying take the biggots who grabbed me one day as I was walking down a crowded hallway, there where at least 200 people within 50 yards, and no one even stopped,
The boys ripped my jeans, my shirt and made me think they where going to take my clothes off while screaming at me, "you must be a woman with a ass like that" "Ill make a woman out of you" "you got a dick under there?"*groped me to find out* I was crying and honestly scared which doesn't happen often.
Put those men into dresses and leave them in the hood they came from for just one fucking night and they wouldn't feel they had the right to put their hands on me.

I feel strongly about this, my words come from my heart, they aren't big words, and I am no philosopher... but its real to me, I just want to live...


About the last page of posts~

Wow... you people are so fucking interesting sometimes...
*sits and looks around for more*

 

[Homburg]

You know what to do to get them.

Geez - with my new boy wanting to wear my panties, and Shank and Homburg almost ready to fight over what's left, I'll soon have to go commando.

See, it is a confusion of interests and fetishes there. Shanks has a fetish for the object in question, whereas panty removal for me would occur simply because I am more interested in seeing you go commando

 

[unfoundiamond]

clafify please

Hom, and the panty brigade, ...hehe

What kind of panties are we talking about seeing, are these panties bikini cut? Boy shorts? Low rise panty...

I need to fill in my mental picure...

 

[rida]

So Deserving~

Before I saw your post and wondered how I could be the only one to talk about the need to end hate crimes against transgendered people, and then I saw your post... and I want to say it made me happy... but it made me sad too, about the woman, and how they have to have a day to demember our lost transgendered brothers and sisters, very sad, as I feel I could have ended up like this, me or any other TG person(or persons who aren't TG even, a butch lesbians or femme gay guys can be confused for CD's or TG'ed.

I am one of these people who, by force and fear, had to move to the middle if I wanted a safe, decent, life. (Couldn't get hired, got harrassed everywhere)

I am not saying that everyone should have to be "somewhere in the middle"
That would be boring- I am saying well rounded in expiriences... Having expiriences from all perspectives... makes a well rounded person...

I am not saying "make" all the really masculine males be girly,

I am saying take the biggots who grabbed me one day as I was walking down a crowded hallway, there where at least 200 people within 50 yards, and no one even stopped,
The boys ripped my jeans, my shirt and made me think they where going to take my clothes off while screaming at me, "you must be a woman with a ass like that" "Ill make a woman out of you" "you got a dick under there?"*groped me to find out* I was crying and honestly scared which doesn't happen often.
Put those men into dresses and leave them in the hood they came from for just one fucking night and they wouldn't feel they had the right to put their hands on me.

I feel strongly about this, my words come from my heart, they aren't big words, and I am no philosopher... but its real to me, I just want to live...


About the last page of posts~

Wow... you people are so fucking interesting sometimes...
*sits and looks around for more*

NOBODY should go through what you did. EVER.
And isn't that assault? Shouldn't the police or something have intervened?

NOBODY should go through what you did. EVER.

{{{HUGS}}}

 

[Homburg]

Hom, and the panty brigade, ...hehe

What kind of panties are we talking about seeing, are these panties bikini cut? Boy shorts? Low rise panty...

I need to fill in my mental picure...

No. This is NOT a mental picture that requires exploration. Does it involve my ass and panties? If so, it is supernumerary. Visit shank's thread. He explores it in far greater detail, and with greater panache, than any murky imaginings of my behind.

 

[DeservingBitch]

No. This is NOT a mental picture that requires exploration. Does it involve my ass and panties? If so, it is supernumerary. Visit shank's thread. He explores it in far greater detail, and with greater panache, than any murky imaginings of my behind.

Why are we still discussing your hairy ass?