Gender Bending

[DeservingBitch]

I think that the bold part hits quite the nail on its head.
And I wonder how much the fact of being in a non-vanilla mind frame helps realize the truth of it. Or viceversa, if the fact of realizing that afterall all genders are performances makes you go away from vanilla.

Hmmm... that's interesting. The first part of what you say there I totally agree. I think that the performance of gender is much more obvious to anyone who's somehow a gender/sexual deviant. But I never thought of the reverse. Although it makes a lot of sense to me. I think I've gotten away from vanilla both from reading a lot of queer/sexual theory (which all more of less argue gender to be performance) AND from a visceral attraction to the performance of gender bending and sexual deviance. But I never really thought about it that way before.

 

[unfoundiamond]

I am Gendered...

I was very into dressing in mens clothes from just before high school, untill I was about 18. I was a virgin at the time, very interested in women, and I LOVE to push the envelope.

I consider the way I used to dress crossdressing, I was never manly, I just wore my hair super short and wore dickies and wifebeaters, or Polo by Ralph Lauren, and a lot of Tommy Hilfiger. I wore guys clothes on the outside, but thongs and bras underneath. (I always kept feminine aspects) I felt better in the clothes I chose than the way womens made me feel. I did some things diffrently, but I am the same person inside, I still don't like chicflicks, I still love to go to clubs and I still get along better with men. I walked diffrently, talked diffrently, even danced diffrently- not on purpose, just because the accessories change(ie. No breakdancing in heels). I even enjoy diffrent roles with women than I do with men, I preffer to be more dominant with women, but submissive with men. I am passionate and charming reguardless. I do feel I have a strong tendancy for duality, I can be comfortable either way.

I began to think I was transgendered after feeling better dressed as a guy, having sex with women, and losing my virginity to a boring guy who sucked in bed.

I got A LOT of harassment. I live in the south, so maybe that's why, I was also in high school, and no one gets out of there without some amount of hazing... I would walk arm and arm with and kiss my girlfriends in public if it felt right. I believe that people shouldn't have to hide their love, and took on an activist mentality when people tried to opress me.

I got tired of the constant harassment. Girls didn't want to be freinds with me in school or work settings, for fear I'd like them or they'd be labeled "a dyke" too. I got tired of being called "dyke", its like nothing else mattered, everytime someone wanted to talk about me or if someone got mad at me, all they could talk about was my being with women. I didn't even matter, I am a really giving person and a protector, I am smart and very sensitive- but none of that mattered, just my sexuality. I wanted to be seen for who I am not what I like. This was also around the time of Brandon Teena and Matthew Shepard, it began to be unsafe for people who openly dressed and loved who they wanted to.

I got tired of the kind of girl I seemed to attract, I got tired of spoiling these girls to have them cheat on me, or tell me they where expirimenting but realized they are straight. I realized the kind of girl I wanted (one like me) didn't go for the look I had.

So I went undercover... LoL,
I stopped with the mens baggy clothes and short hair, and switched to well fitting clothes and longer hair, you will still never catch me in a skirt... some things never change...
I just figured I can be who I want on the inside but it is easyer and safer to blend in rather than stand out. I know not everyone can do this (and I think people should live however they are happiest) , and resent when people tell me "see I knew you wherent gay enough", I didn't stop being myself, I just stopped making myself a easy target. I enjoy that people I work and go to school with don't know anything unless I tell them. A lot of girls tell me they like women, and I just laugh to myself, thinking "if you only knew" People see me now and don't recognize me at all, guys I used to know can't believe its me and girl always tell me how "pretty" I am now. (I thought I was pretty before too)

I hold the power now, I can keep myself from being targeted and persecuted for my passions. I can work and not be judged, or avoided. I get positive responses from men and women equally, which is nice. Also, if someone wants to hurt me they have to do more thinking this way, I don't give them as much ammunition to use against me.

 

[intothewoods]

Top/bottom DomDomme/sub Master/slave Daddy/girl-boy GLBT-Streight
We have discussed, and occasionally argued, the meaning of these terms and how we each manifest them in our lives.

IMHO these are all rolls we, more-or-less, choose to accept. Some accept the rolls with deep convection and some are rather loose and slippery about it. As a bisexual switch I am one of the loose and slippery ones.

To me gender has aspects of accepting rolls as well, although the choosing is made more difficult by the plumbing one is born with as well as how the culture you were born into defines those rolls. When posting here I very seldom use the words "man" or "woman" - I tend to use "male" and "female" and I know when I do that I might be discounting those of us that are trans and intersexed here - I wish I knew language that did not do that.

I do not use "man" and "woman" because I honestly do not know what defines them. I have friends with cocks and balls that present themselves as females, I have friends with vaginas that present as males.

So - gender bending. What do you do, if anything, to "bend" the rules of your societies gender rolls? And does it cost you anything in social acceptance? Do you give a poop? I see gender bending as different from sexual orientation - but that can be a factor as well, what do you thing?

Most here have seen pics of me in my panties - but that is safe for me, under my clothing and at home when alone. When I lived in San Francisco, on weekends I would wear red or pink fingernail polish and blouses, but not at work. Some here may remember a thread I started about going to BDSM events as a Top while dressed only in lace undies and high heals (landing a flogger is a bitch in heals). Now that I am back in Kansas about the only thing I do is wear colored earrings, hug other males, cry in public at times, and say thinks like "guess I was wrong about that" or "I'm sorry" - things a "real man" would not say 'round here. (I have a real fear that my 11 and 7 year old grandsons will see me in one of my dresses but that is fodder for a discussion at another time)

Are you a gender bender?

I am absolutely enthralled with gender bending, but I don't think my interest qualifies. I like to play within my own gender - and what is expected of me. Maybe it's an offshoot of gender bending.

I come at the issue as your basic straight woman. I spent most of my school years feeling odd for being a loud, mouthy feminist type, rather than a girly girl. Looking back and now having discovered my submissive leanings, I enjoy the balance and play of being very tough and less typically feminine woman at work, and sometimes completely submissive in the bedroom, and various shades of grey in my personal life.

At work, I usually dress with something of an edge - sharp glasses, bitch heels, etc. Definitely not soft. And my personality is confident, but I can also be really tough.

In the scene, I just love playing with that - innocent, girly, ultra-feminine. I have a hard time really letting go these days, so I tend to act more girly brat. It gives me an out, if that makes sense.

But when I really let go, with my PYL, I will let myself be the most feminine creature - whatever he wishes - kissing his feet even. I wouldn't call it play, because that almost implies it isn't real, but fulfilling exploration.

 

[macccer]

i love...

this thread. i learned so much reading these posts. Seriously, thanks to everyone that contributed...

The idea of 'gender bending' is truly fascinating to me and it is one of the least understood of my own sexual kinks. i started writing about being 'forced' into a feminine role before i even understood what that meant. i've always been fascinated by the thought of being made into the feminine member of a straight D/s relationship. i will admit that i am kind of a 'poser' when it comes to true gender issues, but i hope that what i feel contributes to the general confusion and ambiguity of this issue.

Gender is certainly a social issue and it's a way that people sort and stack others. It's a way that society defines 'other' and those that defy it invite criticism at best and outright scorn at worst. There is a necessity to 'fitting in' and i truly admire those that have will and the strength to buck society and be what they are... or want to be. It's clear that most people just decide to 'accept' what they were born with and use it as a constant and some people don't accept it. i think as a society we have a long way to go understanding why...

Great thread...

 

[DeservingBitch]

*little thread hijack*

There is a necessity to 'fitting in' and i truly admire those that have will and the strength to buck society and be what they are... or want to be. It's clear that most people just decide to 'accept' what they were born with and use it as a constant and some people don't accept it. i think as a society we have a long way to go understanding why...

Great thread...

I'm not sure it's as simple as that. I think a lot of people make a 'choice', like I do, to live a particular way and adopt a particular ethic or dynamic. And for some, it happens to be the dominant way of doing things, or more similar to it than other choices. But it's not necessarily less of a choice than mine. And what about those who are not in a position to make a more risky choice? My trans friends have to make the choice to be the target of 'gender bending' hate every time they are out and need to use a public washroom. For them, every time, they are taking risks. But some aren't even in a position to take those risks and make those choices.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

**SNIP**

So - gender bending. What do you do, if anything, to "bend" the rules of your societies gender roles? And does it cost you anything in social acceptance? Do you give a poop? I see gender bending as different from sexual orientation - but that can be a factor as well, what do you think?
.....

Are you a gender bender?

I keep coming back to this thread because I want so very much to post my thoughts..but I haven't really the words. I'll try though.

I haven't ever been a gender bender. At least not in the way *regular* people consider it. My mother didn't teach me to be a *girl*, she taught me to be strong, slightly domineering, rough and tumble, ready to try anything once. I wasn't aware of the difference between the way I was raised and the way other girls were raised until the 8th grade.

*shrugs* That being said, I am still the same now as I was then. I have a hard time expressing myself emotionally, I am quicker with my hands than my mouth (or brain in some respects) and I still believe that I can accomplish any thing. I am NOT comfortable in dresses (though I do dress up every now and again) and make up (for me) is only something to play with when I am dressed down...so that people don't get totally confused about my sex. (And yes, it does happen)

*grin*

Since I have never cared about what a *woman's* role in society should be, I can't really say that I have ever given a fat fart about the way I appear to others at my job, on the street, or any where else. I like being a woman...it's great. I also like dressing like a boi, getting my hair cut short, going without make up, walking like a boxer..that's who I am, that's not a role. If all of that, things that are me simply because of the way I was brought up...makes me a gender bender..well then I guess I am.

(BTW I classify myself as a soft butch, switchy type..just so's you know)

 

[Homburg]

walking like a boxer..

This spurs some interesting thoughts on how much you tell about someone, gender orientation, and their current state of mind, in how they walk. It makes me wonder about folks that consciously or subconsciously assume other gender roles, and whether or not their walk changes correspondingly.

And reminds me that it has been too long since the last time I did any heavy bag work...

 

[macccer]

A question (probably rhetorical)

My trans friends have to make the choice to be the target of 'gender bending' hate every time they are out and need to use a public washroom. For them, every time, they are taking risks. But some aren't even in a position to take those risks and make those choices.

i'm sorry if this is a hijack, that was not my intent.

i guess Your point leads to another interesting question: why do people (vanillas) find those that challenge gender boundaries and roles such a threat? Is it the direct affront to their reality system?

Certainly there are many that simply can't make that choice, and are forced to provide the image that is expected of them.

 

[DeservingBitch]

i'm sorry if this is a hijack, that was not my intent.

i guess Your point leads to another interesting question: why do people (vanillas) find those that challenge gender boundaries and roles such a threat? Is it the direct affront to their reality system?

Certainly there are many that simply can't make that choice, and are forced to provide the image that is expected of them.

Yes, I think that the fear of the Other is mostly a fear of ourselves. Trans people and all other degree of gender bendings basically say one thing about gender/sexuality: that it can be different. That's frightening to someone who believe that there's only one 'true' or 'right' way to be, that men/women are borned that way, and that certain social and sexual roles apply to each based on their pink bits. Because it means that there are other perpectives which threatened the 'truth' claims of those people's perspective and reality system. How do you claim the 'truth' of your own reality system when you are confronted with people (trans, queer, non-vanilla, etc.) who are living and breathing proof that yours is not the only reality?

 

[Homburg]

How do you claim the 'truth' of your own reality system when you are confronted with people (trans, queer, non-vanilla, etc.) who are living and breathing proof that yours is not the only reality?

If you are a reasonable person, you recognise that truth, like any public space, is not your exclusive domain.

Unfortunately, reasonable people are becoming more rare with each passing day.

 

[rida]

If you are a reasonable person, you recognise that truth, like any public space, is not your exclusive domain.

Unfortunately, reasonable people are becoming more rare with each passing day.

It is also interesting to note that different cultures have different take on what is the "right image" or the "right way to be". And how different cultures feel threatened by dressing out of the schemes.

Personally I was and am lucky that when I grew up in Italy, I never felt any pressure to conform to a given standard of behaviour due to my gender. Nor from my family nor from the society. Not that I was extreem in any way, but I do remember a girl, a bit older than myself, dressing totally male. And nobody ever making any comment on it, in spite of being a small town.
Now, I am not sure if a boy would have walked around in skirts, what would have happened.

But for total freedom of image, you need to see Tokyo. Yes, working attire, school attire is codified to the point that many places have uniforms. But on your free time, you can truly dress as you please (of course no nudity). And you can really see almost anything walking around in Harajuku (gothic, lolita, visual, punk, preppy, total brand, borderline fetish, normal, etc).

Are both society as open as the freedom they afford you in the way you dress?

Yes, as far as you don't flaunt your non-vanilla sexuality in everybodies' face, you are free to do as you please. And dressing in drags or what not, is seen as fashion and not flaunting your "diversity".

As for kissing in public ... in Italy everybody does, in Japan almost nobody does ... special clubs aside .

 

[DeservingBitch]

If you are a reasonable person, you recognise that truth, like any public space, is not your exclusive domain.

Unfortunately, reasonable people are becoming more rare with each passing day.

Yes, but for some, believing that their 'truth' is the only one is core to their belief system and view of the world. Acknowledging that their 'truth' is no more 'true' than someone else's 'truth' eventually means that theirs is not a 'true truth'. Some people can't deal with that, often because it would means accepting to lose some of their privileges, and/or granting the same rights to other.

How do you justify slavery without the idea that white people are superior and people of colour are sub-humans?

Gender bending fucks with the entire system we live in and with its core values. Hence the hatred and daily oppression and killing of people who don't fit in the mold of 'proper' gender and sexuality.

 

[Homburg]

Yes, but for some, believing that their 'truth' is the only one is core to their belief system and view of the world. Acknowledging that their 'truth' is no more 'true' than someone else's 'truth' eventually means that theirs is not a 'true truth'. Some people can't deal with that, often because it would means accepting to lose some of their privileges, and/or granting the same rights to other.

How do you justify slavery without the idea that white people are superior and people of colour are sub-humans?

Gender bending fucks with the entire system we live in and with its core values. Hence the hatred and daily oppression and killing of people who don't fit in the mold of 'proper' gender and sexuality.

Meh, even the most exclusionary of major belief systems preach tolerance and acceptance. People just seem to forget that sort of thing. Persecution is far more sexy, and clothing it in the trappings of their belief system justifies narrow-minded bigotry.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Netzach]

I see an uberfemme and I want to butch her out for a night. At least once or twice. Just 'cause the suffering is so cool. And sometimes they take to it altogether really well and that's fun also. It's fun to vicariously relive what it was like to sneak into my ex boyfriends' clothes and suddenly feel really sexy.

 

[graceanne]

I've been following this thread, mostly out of curiosity. But I'm a bit confused by some things. Maybe it's me over-simplifying things again, but . . .

Why are certain things 'male' and 'female'? I'd say if all traits are consider male or female then we're all at least slightly a 'gender bender'. For instance, CM is a self avowed frou frou girly girl, right? But wouldn't being well educated be consider a 'male' trait? I mean look at the worlds history - only recently have women had the same educational opportunity's as men. Or . . . Betticus. He's pretty masculine, and all that. He LOVES his baths, with bubbles and everything. Marquis and his attention to fashion. Catalina and her constant house improvement. You get the point. I think that even slightly emotionally healthy people have some 'male' and 'female' traits. I, personaly, consider myself feminine - and you wouldn't catch me dead in pink.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I've been following this thread, mostly out of curiosity. But I'm a bit confused by some things. Maybe it's me over-simplifying things again, but . . .

Why are certain things 'male' and 'female'? I'd say if all traits are consider male or female then we're all at least slightly a 'gender bender'. For instance, CM is a self avowed frou frou girly girl, right? But wouldn't being well educated be consider a 'male' trait? I mean look at the worlds history - only recently have women had the same educational opportunity's as men. Or . . . Betticus. He's pretty masculine, and all that. He LOVES his baths, with bubbles and everything. Marquis and his attention to fashion. Catalina and her constant house improvement. You get the point. I think that even slightly emotionally healthy people have some 'male' and 'female' traits. I, personaly, consider myself feminine - and you wouldn't catch me dead in pink.

I think you're totally right there in saying that we all have attributes, traits, attitudes, preferences, desires or whatnot that are categorized as 'masculine' and 'feminine', no matter what gender we identify with.
But while some 'gender bending' are considered socially acceptable (like a woman being educated or wearing pants), other are seen as more disturbing of the proper gender roles and norms (like a guy wearing a skirt or other 'women's' attire). How often do we hear that a guy putting a lot of attention and care to his fashion style is 'gay'? Or that a man who is vocal about his emotions and feelings is a 'wimp'?
I think that gender bending happens all the time. But in some instances, it is not recognized as such, and in others, it is. And more often than not in this later case, there are risks associated with disturbing the 'normal' gender structure.

 

[DeservingBitch]

For those interested, this is a cool blog by a kinky butch dyke who writes a lot about her reflections on gender bending and sexuality: Sugarbutch Chronicles.

She also has some hot erotica posted on there.

 

[Etoile]

Pop quiz: does femme have to mean dress? Can you be femme without wearing a skirt or dress?

 

[DeservingBitch]

To me at least, performing femme means much more than what I'm wearing. In my case, it does often include wearing skirt/dress, but I can totally see someone performing femme without ever wearing a skirt/dress.

 

[graceanne]

Pop quiz: does femme have to mean dress? Can you be femme without wearing a skirt or dress?

I, personally, think so. I consider myself femme, but I normally wear pants. That's cause I'm level headed. With the stuff I do every day a skirt is not practical. The degree of my 'femme' depends on what's going on and what I'm doing. If I'm going out I usually wear a skirt or dres, makeup, I curl my hair, etc. But then, I'm beginning to think that people spend too much time deciding what's male and what's female. Who cares? I might be a little cranky about it, though, cause I'm sick of getting shit from my inlaws about painting my son's toenails.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I, personally, think so. I consider myself femme, but I normally wear pants. That's cause I'm level headed. With the stuff I do every day a skirt is not practical. The degree of my 'femme' depends on what's going on and what I'm doing. If I'm going out I usually wear a skirt or dres, makeup, I curl my hair, etc. But then, I'm beginning to think that people spend too much time deciding what's male and what's female. Who cares? I might be a little cranky about it, though, cause I'm sick of getting shit from my inlaws about painting my son's toenails.

Eh - that would be an example of socially non-accepted gender bending. And it is quite ridiculous if you ask me that people get all worked up because OH-MY-GOD, that boy has polish on his toenails!!!

 

[graceanne]

Eh - that would be an example of socially non-accepted gender bending. And it is quite ridiculous if you ask me that people get all worked up because OH-MY-GOD, that boy has polish on his toenails!!!

Yeah. I just say to them 'I think you can cause children to be gay as quickly by over-reacting to stuff like that as any other way'. That usually shuts them up. I mean, for God's sake, he's four. Me and my girls are painting our nales, and he wants me to paint his, too. some people need to seriously CHILL.

 

[snowy ciara]

Okay, my first thought when Grace says she paints her little boy's toes was "what color?"

I really hope this makes sense, but my thoughts aren't real clear on this yet. So I hope I'm making sense. If not, I'll try to clarify.

I've been following this thread and reading it and cogitating and percolating and stuff, because I'm sort of gender fluid myself. I suppose now, if I did have to have a label, I'd be a tomboy femme, but I kind of reject the whole label thing.

I don't perceive gender as an arbitrary, binary thing. And since non binary gender does occur in nature (in some plants, and fishes and reptiles) I can't accept that gender is binary. Especially when I look at myself and realize that for a large periods of my life, I had no discernible gender to myself.

When I was a child, I didn't identify as male or female. I couldn't definitively place myself on either side of the line. I have female plumbing, and generally fall to the female side of the line, but there are times when I don't feel like a female at all. Most of the time, I'm just a sexual being. I do feel more boy than girl at times.

The funny thing is, I've done the "boy" thing that Netzach mentioned. My Domme took me to a gay bar as a boy. She called me by a boy's name, and my breasts were bound but even an environment full of gender outlaws, the majority of people took in my baseball cap, jeans, boots and bulge - she made me pack that night. It was weird! It was quite a Netzach moment- and my waist length braids and STILL referred to me as a girl. I was annoyed! And grumpy. I was in boy mode, danced with the pretty girls, used the men's lavatory and there was still a small contingent who couldn't see past my long hair. It really re--inforced to me that even though I don't see long hair as a particularly feminine trait, most people do. But when we got home and I turned to her and said "Fuck me like a boy, please, Ma'am." we nearly blew the roof off! I swear I had a cock grinding against the pillows when she was riding me from behind. It was one of the most mind-blowing O's I've ever had.

But anyway.

I don't know if my lack of um, acceptance of the binary gender system is what makes me attracted to all sorts of people or not. I mean, I've never felt straight, bi-sexual or gay. I've always been attracted to people and the gender represented by their plumbing or personality has not been important. If they're a jerk, that's important, but gender really isn't. But I can say, that gender fluid people have always attracted me. I might get turned on by a random guy, or by a random girl, but a gender fluid person will almost always perk up my radar. Unless they're doing that caricature thing.

I've noticed that I'm more comfortable with trans people too. They are my people, even though some do not accept me as the feel I am too traditionally female. Which is probably why, when I finally found a Domme whom I was comfortable with, she turned out to be an MTF transsexual. She is all that is woman to me. Graceful, gentle, kind, and mean and nasty when she needs to be. She never did hormones or bottom surgery though, because she likes having a penis. She says it comes handy, since even though she is a woman, she prefers to be the penetratER rather than the penetratEE. But I didn't know for sure she was trans when we met. She is a beautiful, sexy, confident woman. With a cock. And I couldn't imagine her any other way.

So that's sort of where I am. For now. But I reserve the right to change without notice. Being gender-fluid can be like that.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

This spurs some interesting thoughts on how much you tell about someone, gender orientation, and their current state of mind, in how they walk. It makes me wonder about folks that consciously or subconsciously assume other gender roles, and whether or not their walk changes correspondingly.

I asked my s/o about this (along with my ex girl and my ex sir). I had always assumed that I walk the same way, all the time. I found out though, that I don't. Depending on what I am wearing, or whether or not I am depressed, my walk changes. Usually (for my height) I walk with long strides, arms kind of bouncing, shoulders up. (Imagine a very energetic welter weight boxer is what my ex's say) When I am in a skirt and heels (but only then) I have a sway in my hips. If I am depressed my s/o says I walk on the balls of my feet, shoulders dropped, fists curled (like a mini Mike Tyson, his words not mine)..how weird is that??

(Okay back to reading)