Frustrated.....

[tenchikoi]

I love my fiance, but I'm very frustrated with our intimate life. I have more experience than him when it comes to sex and he seems offended by that. I also enjoy using toys with or without him, but he considers that 'cheating'. He wont even masturbate by himself because he says it would mean he'd cheated on me. I want to enjoy sex again...with him! But he's making it very hard to grow together in this area. Any useful advice is appreciated.

 

[desertslave]

It can be really difficult to change someone's mind when notions like this are ingrained from a young(er) age.

Have you actually brought out the toys when he's with you? If not, maybe you could do some 'show & yell' for him.

Or, perhaps, masturbating in front of each other, FOR each other.

Other than that, talk talk talk talk talk to him. Maybe find a few stories here on Lit to share with him, examples of "this what turns me on" that you could then try to talk about. Since guys tend to be more visual, you might try finding some videos in the same vein.

Bottom line, though, is that it's tough to change such fundamental aversions. Better to find out now, before you get married, that this might be a deal-breaker.

 

[tenchikoi]

It can be really difficult to change someone's mind when notions like this are ingrained from a young(er) age.

Have you actually brought out the toys when he's with you? If not, maybe you could do some 'show & yell' for him.

Or, perhaps, masturbating in front of each other, FOR each other.

Other than that, talk talk talk talk talk to him. Maybe find a few stories here on Lit to share with him, examples of "this what turns me on" that you could then try to talk about. Since guys tend to be more visual, you might try finding some videos in the same vein.

Bottom line, though, is that it's tough to change such fundamental aversions. Better to find out now, before you get married, that this might be a deal-breaker.

No, it's certainly not a deal breaker. I may deserve great sex, but I wont die without it. I want to have that with him, which is why I'm trying so hard to help him broaden his horizons. I have brought out my vibrator to show him. But he was offended and thought he hadn't given me enough pleasure. Which isn't true, I just wanted to make things more interesting. He was raised Catholic, so I'm also wondering if that played a part in his sexual repression?

 

[SweetErika]

Bottom line, though, is that it's tough to change such fundamental aversions. Better to find out now, before you get married, that this might be a deal-breaker.

Nicely put!

It seems like he has a lot of issues with "cheating," no? Do you know why that is/where it's coming from?

Honestly, I'd suggest taking a big step back and trying to sort all of this out. If you're planning on getting married, investing in counseling would likely be an excellent idea. It sounds like there are some serious deep-rooted issues here that WOULD seriously impact your happiness in the future.

On a related note, stepping back may be a good idea for other reasons. I thought it was you who posted the "triangle" situation this winter, and sure enough, it was. So, you went from that mess to apparently getting a serious bf right away and then getting engaged, all within 6 months? Yes, I get that there are whirlwind romances, some people are just compatible, being proposed to is flattering and you're not a young woman, but it seems like you have fundamental incompatibilities with this man that don't bode well for either of you. If you slow it WAY down and find out exactly who you're planning on marrying, you won't have the nasty surprises after a marriage, and your marriage will be far more likely to succeed. At the very least, plan the wedding for years in the future so you have a real chance at getting to know this guy and settling issues (yours, his, couples) first. You need to do the groundwork before you can even start a good foundation, and it doesn't seem like you've done that at this point, you know? I'm saying all of this, and pointing out that your history is concerning. with the best of intentions, so please take it that way.

 

[njlauren]

If he grew up around traditionalist Catholics, yeah, it probably had a lot to do with it, the church has gone way backwards on sex, they are not all that much more enlightened then the Islamic crazies and the like, they are still caught up that sex is for procreation and so forth, it is pretty pathetic. When you grow up believing that masturbation is a sin, that sex to simply have a hot time with the person you love is wrong (surprised you guys are even having sex, given the church's stance on premarital sex), it makes you feel guilty about almost everything except having sex in the dark with the lights out to make babies....(before anyone rips me, there are plenty of enlightened people in the church, the vatican just ripped a nun who wrote a wonderful book on sexuality,because she said that sex was a wonderful thing for a couple to explore and learn about as a couple, and I have met some priests who were really with it; on the other hand the fascists who have been running the Vatican for the past 30 years or so are throwbacks to the middle ages, including being fucking misogynists).

I have to be honest, it may be hard to break him of his reactions (Freud once claimed that religion with its psychotic view of sex had caused more pathology then almost anything else out there), the best you can do is talk to him about it, tell him what you need and try to make him understand. If he is willing try seeing a counselor who is an expert on issues of sexuality, among other things, they are trained to deal with issues that come from issues like your fiancee might have.

One piece of advice, having been married 24 years and in a relationship for 30, don't underestimate the importance of sex, of a fulfilling sex life. I would never, ever tell someone in love with someone else that because of issues with sex to walk away,that it won't work, I appreciate more then most what love means, but what I am saying is don't just let it slide or try and say "it is no big deal", it is. I am assuming you guys are young and hopefully will have a lot of years together, and it is a perfect time to work on this side of things, and I cannot recommend working on it enough. If he won't go to sex counseling, then there are books out their written for women that try and give ideas on how to make it work. I also know what it is like to tough it out, to go through issues with sexuality, where my spouse had issues that hurt our sex life almost from the beginning, and if you can work on them now, do it.

 

[SweetErika]

No, it's certainly not a deal breaker. I may deserve great sex, but I wont die without it. I want to have that with him, which is why I'm trying so hard to help him broaden his horizons. I have brought out my vibrator to show him. But he was offended and thought he hadn't given me enough pleasure. Which isn't true, I just wanted to make things more interesting. He was raised Catholic, so I'm also wondering if that played a part in his sexual repression?

I'd think that premarital sex would be a far bigger sticking point for him with that background.

Most of the even practicing Catholics I know view anything that's consensual between spouses as just fine, FWIW.

Maybe the heart of it is a trust issue. He's not trusting that you're being honest when you say you're happy with him or whatever. Does he have low self-esteem?

Why is he making assumptions and getting upset first, rather than communicating with you, clarifying, and trusting what you tell him? Does he handle non-sexual situations the same way?

 

[fire_breeze]

No, it's certainly not a deal breaker. I may deserve great sex, but I wont die without it. I want to have that with him, which is why I'm trying so hard to help him broaden his horizons. I have brought out my vibrator to show him. But he was offended and thought he hadn't given me enough pleasure. Which isn't true, I just wanted to make things more interesting. He was raised Catholic, so I'm also wondering if that played a part in his sexual repression?

Eh, I was raised Catholic, and I don't think I'm exactly 'repressed' sexually (and although I'm initially reserved, I can assure you that my childhood has nothing to do with my reservedness).

I personally think that he may feel intimidated - and people can be defensive when faced with intimidation. He may feel that he should be man enough to be the one to give you all the pleasure you need. Who knows? Maybe you can turn it into a game and 'teach' him a few things. Or ask him a few things what he would like to do. Read sexy stories. All you can do is talk talk talk and communicate communicate communicate. A relationship is about sharing and about coming to agreeable compromises.

By the way, if religion does play a role then you both really technically shouldn't be having sex or using any form of artificial birth control (unless there's a medical reason). Either he follows the precepts or he doesn't. Just sayin'.

 

[GrrlFriday]

Honestly, I'd put away the toy for now, not bring it up around him - the way he's phrased things, he's uncomfortable with masturbation in total, even for himself as well as for you, and the fact that you enjoy masturbation so much that you've bought a toy to make masturbation better is going to be extra-confronting. Some religious guys will get offended by their other half masturbating without a toy while thinking of them together.

You'll need to talk to him about thoughts and ideas about masturbation - why he thinks it's cheating/bad/wrong... Pay attention, be respectful. Share your thoughts when he asks... but don't proselytise.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a6.htm - might be a good place to start, although he's unlikely to have read it in its entirety, its teachings have probably been passed on to him through his education and upbringing.

 

[NightL]

I may deserve great sex, but I wont die without it.

...but you will die a thousand deaths inside, and it will get worse as the years go by. You will resent him, and he will pull away further. You will then resent him all the more.

You need to sort this one out fast. Don't let him place his insecurities on you. You are not the one needing to adjust. What you are wishing for in a relationship is perfectly normal and quite frankly, essential.

I would strongly suggest finding a sex therapist. Make an appointment for yourself first. Discuss the situation and approaches you may take to encourage him to join you for the next appointment.

SweetErika, in the meanwhile, will provide the best guidance of anyone on this forum.

The stepping back suggestion? Well you could be playful and make a game of it. "No more sex until you allow me to be in charge of my own sensuality. The next time we have sex, this is what is going to happen... until you agree and indeed plead, there will be no more sex at all." Once stated you will need to commit to it, especially the "no sex until you agree". I believe the majority of males would come around within a week. If he does not, then either follow up on my first suggestion or seriously consider taking a much greater step back to reassess your future.

You are not wishing for a tribe of dancing gnomes on pogo-sticks wearing chaps and brandishing whips (haha)... you have a perfectly normal desire for a loving and sensual relationship. It is his guilt not yours. At this stage of your relationship you should be starting a journey together to yet unknown heights, not submitting to what could easily end up representing a form of control from his behalf.

Starting a relationship should be about waking every morning and loving life and cherishing all that the day will bring and damn well demanding a few special surprises along the way.

So "it's certainly not a deal breaker. I may deserve great sex, but I wont die without it." ???? At least he should be willing to try.

 

[NightL]

The stepping back suggestion? Well you could be playful and make a game of it. "No more sex until you allow me to be in charge of my own sensuality. The next time we have sex, this is what is going to happen... until you agree and indeed plead, there will be no more sex at all."

...so if it is indeed the classic catholic guilt scenario, then maybe the very thing he will respond to is actually being TOLD what to do and what to THINK.

If he is still "catholic" then you may have the chance of directing him when you can prise him off the entrenched guidance and guilt.

When I was in my twenties I observed a number of ex-catholics who were hell bent on finding the new external answers and guidance that life must provide once catholicism was denounced. Now maybe you can catch him on that rebound... just enforce a few rules. He will lap them up totally.

Jest?

 

[klippert]

I love my fiance, but I'm very frustrated with our intimate life. I have more experience than him when it comes to sex and he seems offended by that. I also enjoy using toys with or without him, but he considers that 'cheating'. He wont even masturbate by himself because he says it would mean he'd cheated on me. I want to enjoy sex again...with him! But he's making it very hard to grow together in this area. Any useful advice is appreciated.

How on earth did you hook up with him. If he's jealous about a sex toy. Your in for a rough ride. My advice. Either he's slapped into reality and get's on the sex train or tell him, you need off. communication is key. talk to him straight up don't hold ana'thing back

I'm serious, he thinks a dildo is cheating.....I think its hot knowing MrsK had sexual experiences....some rather exciting to hear. Your Fy'ansae'.... is going to become over possessive and jealous about everything....unless he changes. Remember you can't change a tigers stripes. best of luck.

 

[bailadora]

...but you will die a thousand deaths inside, and it will get worse as the years go by. You will resent him, and he will pull away further. You will then resent him all the more.

Quoted for truth. Sex is not the be all, end all in a relationship, but it's pretty high up there and sexual compatibility is a must for a satisfying relationship. As is a willingness to actively work with one's partner when conflict/problems arise. If he's not willing to do that, I think you ought to seriously reconsider whether or not you want a lifetime relationship with this man.

 

[subwannabe]

I don't think I can give you any advice that you will deem "usefull" but, I have to join the chorus of the others who are worried about your problem. I think the bottom line here is, do you love this guy enough to get married, knowing that this situation will probably never improve (and could get worse)? You suffer from the same syndrome that many women do - you find a guy and you're already thinking in your head that you will be able to change him (through time, caring, understanding, etc.). Most women find out in the end that they were wrong in thinking that they could change a guy. The reality is that you will probably never be able to change him and you really need to understand that.

 

[Lord Pmann]

Sex doesn't fix any problem in a marriage. But it can cause problems. Sexual incompatibility will be a huge problem in time. I promise that. If you think that you can deal with it, I have a feeling you're wrong. The simple fact that you've been on this forum a while makes me think you probably lean kinkier than the majority of the population. The fact that your fiancée seems to lean towards the more minority of conservative people, strikes me as a huge problem.

How long have you been with this guy? How long have you been engaged? Have you ever been married?

Marriage is great. But if you pick the wrong one, it could be miserable. Read the sexless marriage threads for some stories. Marriage is a magnifying glass. All the things you love about the person become more intense. The same goes with the things that annoy the shit out of you.

I second the comment about how this guy will be a controlling, jealous ass. No doubt.

 

[Rhslonewolf]

I would suggest trying a site I found on here..http://mojoupgrade.com/ I just did it and my fiancé is gonna do it when she gets home.

 

[MadWriter]

My two cents ... and it may sound glib, and it may or may not work ....

Hand him the vibrator. Tell him you want HIM to give you pleasure with it.

OK, don't just hand it to him in the moment. Talk about it... but when you talk with him, tell him that.

Tell him you would love nothing more than to watch him stroke himself. Make all those things part of what the two of you do together. He may bristle at first, but he needs to understand that you want sex with him and no one else, and anything you use to achieve pleasure is in addition to him, not instead of.

He's the cake; the vibe's the frosting. Cake without frosting is deee-lish. And a little bit of frosting doesn't make it any less so.

 

[amofiga]

<<<< No, it's certainly not a deal breaker. I may deserve great sex, but I wont die without it. I want to have that with him, which is why I'm trying so hard to help him broaden his horizons. I have brought out my vibrator to show him. But he was offended and thought he hadn't given me enough pleasure. Which isn't true, I just wanted to make things more interesting. He was raised Catholic, so I'm also wondering if that played a part in his sexual repression? >>>>

While a perfect sex life may not be a "deal breaker", it's important to note that it can be another of what will be many incompatibilities that come up over the years. It can fester and after 5 or 10 years of being "unfulfilled" lead you to thinking about (or acting on) seeking outside interests. Been there, done that. One of the things I've learned over the years is that when you try on a pair of shoes, if they aren't comfortable right out of the box, they probably never will be totally comfortable and you may end up regretting that you bought them.

I think the advice of backing up a bit and maybe even seeking some counseling to get things out on the table is a good idea. People generally don't change much, and people who think they are going to "change someone" after they are married are usually frustrated that their efforts are unsuccessful. Some things regarding sexuality can modify with experience, but it's a sensitive issue. Also, as far as I can tell, Catholics per se are NOT all that hung up about sex. I was raised Catholic and I think I'm pretty open minded about a lot of things and I never met a sex-toy or adult movie or most sex acts that would put me off. Some of the craziest kinkiest women I've known were Catholic. I won't say they were "perfect Catholics" but certainly were raised as such as I was. I won't tell you what they used to say about the Catholic girls at one high school while I was growing up regarding "taking communion in parked cars".

All kidding aside, it would be best to get this ironed out before you walk down the aisle
and make sure you'll be able to accept a sex life that's not up to your desired standards. Sex is only one part of a marriage and many marriages do well with limited sexual expression as long as there are other key areas of love and compatibility. After all, there's going to come a day when sex is pretty much over or quite limited because of age or physical health and hopefully, it won't spell and end to your marriage. However, expecially when you're young, sexual issues can also be a burr under the saddle that festers over the years and can lead one or both partners to seek relief somewhere else. Good luck. Marriage can be beautiful freedom or a life sentence. Proceed wisely.

 

[culloden]

"No, it's certainly not a deal breaker. I may deserve great sex, but I wont die without it."

Given that you're active on Lit, I also suspect sex matters to you more than it does to the average Josephine, yet you're rationalizing a sexual problem even before you're married. That strikes me as a bad sign. Like the others, I think you need to work this out before you say "I do".

 

[EuphoricDysphoria]

There's something I don't get here. He's happy to have sex with you before marriage but gets upset at what amounts to masturbation with tech support?

I think you should definitely try to ask in a non-judgemental way how his internal moral code works and why your toys upset him so much. It may be that it hasn't even occurred to him that he's being a bit hypocritical here.

If he genuinely sticks masturbation in the same emotional category as adultery, this guy has some serious issues. If you're not careful you're looking at a lifetime of pandering to the ego of an irrational emotional child, who may well turn out to be suspicious and controlling down the line, especially if he gets the slightest hint that you're not 300% satisfied with the sex you have together. He sounds incredibly insecure to me, which is going to make him extremely hard work if you're determined to stick with him and attempt to change his perspective.

I'm also willing to bet that he doesn't know about your lit account. The more you feel compelled to hide from him in order to keep him sweet, the bigger a shitstorm you'll wind up in, when he inevitably starts prying because of his insecurity.

 

[njlauren]

<<<< No, it's certainly not a deal breaker. I may deserve great sex, but I wont die without it. I want to have that with him, which is why I'm trying so hard to help him broaden his horizons. I have brought out my vibrator to show him. But he was offended and thought he hadn't given me enough pleasure. Which isn't true, I just wanted to make things more interesting. He was raised Catholic, so I'm also wondering if that played a part in his sexual repression? >>>>

While a perfect sex life may not be a "deal breaker", it's important to note that it can be another of what will be many incompatibilities that come up over the years. It can fester and after 5 or 10 years of being "unfulfilled" lead you to thinking about (or acting on) seeking outside interests. Been there, done that. One of the things I've learned over the years is that when you try on a pair of shoes, if they aren't comfortable right out of the box, they probably never will be totally comfortable and you may end up regretting that you bought them.

I think the advice of backing up a bit and maybe even seeking some counseling to get things out on the table is a good idea. People generally don't change much, and people who think they are going to "change someone" after they are married are usually frustrated that their efforts are unsuccessful. Some things regarding sexuality can modify with experience, but it's a sensitive issue. Also, as far as I can tell, Catholics per se are NOT all that hung up about sex. I was raised Catholic and I think I'm pretty open minded about a lot of things and I never met a sex-toy or adult movie or most sex acts that would put me off. Some of the craziest kinkiest women I've known were Catholic. I won't say they were "perfect Catholics" but certainly were raised as such as I was. I won't tell you what they used to say about the Catholic girls at one high school while I was growing up regarding "taking communion in parked cars".

All kidding aside, it would be best to get this ironed out before you walk down the aisle
and make sure you'll be able to accept a sex life that's not up to your desired standards. Sex is only one part of a marriage and many marriages do well with limited sexual expression as long as there are other key areas of love and compatibility. After all, there's going to come a day when sex is pretty much over or quite limited because of age or physical health and hopefully, it won't spell and end to your marriage. However, expecially when you're young, sexual issues can also be a burr under the saddle that festers over the years and can lead one or both partners to seek relief somewhere else. Good luck. Marriage can be beautiful freedom or a life sentence. Proceed wisely.

One note, when talking about Catholics and sex you have to be careful.A lot of Catholics these days are 'cultural Catholics' or "Christmas and Easter Catholics" and of those who even go to church somewhat regularly are cafeteria catholics, and no, they generally are not repressed as their parents and grandparents were, when it comes to sex most of them realize that church teaching that bans sex toys, oral sex, petting, masturbation and the like is the wet dream of a bunch of stupid old farts at the vatican (I love reading things on sex on the vatican website; on one hand they say sex is a major part of the love between a married couple,but then go on and on warning against 'recreational sex' (for example, the church is okay for a man to take viagra, but only if he is having sex 'open to life' and not for 'recreational purposes' ..and we are talking with his wife, folks....*gag*). However, there are still people out there whose attitudes are probably closer to people in Poland (where they have laws on the books that they prosecute for, for gay sex, or sex 'not in line with natural law'), the orthodox catholics who swallow the whole nine yards..and if the fiancee grew up with that, if he went to Catholic School and had parents who believed that twaddle, then yes, he could be guilt ridden as hell about what is 'good sex'..obviously he isn't following all of it, but there is some serious guilt at work there and ma church is very good at that one.BTW a lot of priests and nuns know the score, they think the Bishops and the vatican are basically off the deep end (their view of sex is about as enlightened as believing the earth was the center of the Solar system, which they didn't drop until the 1920's as the official church position.....), my wife went to a Catholic school that in high school had comprehensive sex ed (Right after she graduated, JPII made sure that catholic schools only taught the 'no sex before marriage' and 'sex is primarily for procreation' nonsense.

 

[subwannabe]

I'm beginning to wonder if the religion thing really has much to do with it. It sounds more like he just has a big ego and insecurity issues.

 

[amofiga]

<<< One note, when talking about Catholics and sex you have to be careful.A lot of Catholics these days are 'cultural Catholics' or "Christmas and Easter Catholics" and of those who even go to church somewhat regularly are cafeteria catholics, and no, they generally are not repressed as their parents and grandparents were, when it comes to sex most of them realize that church teaching that bans sex toys, oral sex, petting, masturbation and the like is the wet dream of a bunch of stupid old farts at the vatican (I love reading things on sex on the vatican website; on one hand they say sex is a major part of the love between a married couple,but then go on and on warning against 'recreational sex' (for example, the church is okay for a man to take viagra, but only if he is having sex 'open to life' and not for 'recreational purposes' ..and we are talking with his wife, folks....*gag*). However, there are still people out there whose attitudes are probably closer to people in Poland (where they have laws on the books that they prosecute for, for gay sex, or sex 'not in line with natural law'), the orthodox catholics who swallow the whole nine yards..and if the fiancee grew up with that, if he went to Catholic School and had parents who believed that twaddle, then yes, he could be guilt ridden as hell about what is 'good sex'..obviously he isn't following all of it, but there is some serious guilt at work there and ma church is very good at that one.BTW a lot of priests and nuns know the score, they think the Bishops and the vatican are basically off the deep end (their view of sex is about as enlightened as believing the earth was the center of the Solar system, which they didn't drop until the 1920's as the official church position.....), my wife went to a Catholic school that in high school had comprehensive sex ed (Right after she graduated, JPII made sure that catholic schools only taught the 'no sex before marriage' and 'sex is primarily for procreation' nonsense. >>>

Good points. I think the Vatican is either quite naive or just plain nuts and totally out of touch with reality (or wise in their controling tactics). In many ways I consider myself a spiritual person but I am certainly not a "religious" person after being force-fed a lot of "believe it blindly or burn in Hell" sorts of dogma while growing up. I think that too many people, whether with regard to religion, politics, or buying groceries and sex toys are too lazy to think for themselves and make decisions based on their own beliefs and too willing to follow what other's tell them. As long as people continue to be lazy and fearful in following their own beliefs, people like Adolf Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, or the Pope will continue to have an undue influence on the world. The more freedom, respect, and tolerance for others that we have, the better we all will be.

 

[subwannabe]

That was well said and very true. I really don't believe myself how many millions and even billions of people are just willing to believe or have blind faith in what others tell them to be true. I really don't understand why religions can't "adjust" their views on things as science brings out true facts. I'm not saying that they have to change their morals or values, just adjust things which obviously aren't true. A few hundred years ago the Earth was believed to be the center of the solar system and the universe and we now know that that is not true (O.K. maybe religions have "adjusted" somewhat). I was recently reading a children's bible and it talked about how God made the Earth first and then made the stars, etc. later. Well, we know from proven science that that is not true. The universe is positively known to be approximately 13 billion years old and the Earth is only about 4 or 5 billion years old. So, obviously, God did not make the Earth first but I see nothing wrong with saying that God made the Earth and the stars and the universe. Just don't put your head in the sand and tell us things which obviously aren't true and expect us to take it on blind faith.

 

[Noor]

OK some people aren't into toys, and prefer to have sex with humans, so you may never get him to be into toys.
Some people rarely if ever masturbate, this also is not a big deal, its their choice.

Trying to control what you do and looking at it as cheating is a big deal, although having seen guys who actually do use such things in a cheating way, like cyber and porn and such, I understand.

The main question is can you be satisfied by the actual sex you do have with this guy? Is he interested in exploring sex if it doesn't include outside things?
How does he feel about sex and sexology in general? Why does he have sex? If you are going to have children, does he think parents should be having sex?

I would not marry this man under the conditions you have posted and I can go without sex for periods of time if I have a good reason but these are not good enough reasons for me. I would go mad in such a relationship. There is a depth of intimacy in sex that most people need, a bonding even when sex is among friends that provides comfort, relationships can be hard, life can be very hard, to go without is not worth it.

Oh and some of the most fun lovers I have ever had were good catholic boys, some of them wouldn't have intercourse outside of marriage but they would do anything and everything else. <-I don't know about toys because I don't really use them and having a live person you are into who has fingers, tongue, voice, cock and so outweighs any device for me that at this point I can't really see getting into them.

 

[fire_breeze]

That was well said and very true. I really don't believe myself how many millions and even billions of people are just willing to believe or have blind faith in what others tell them to be true. I really don't understand why religions can't "adjust" their views on things as science brings out true facts. I'm not saying that they have to change their morals or values, just adjust things which obviously aren't true. A few hundred years ago the Earth was believed to be the center of the solar system and the universe and we now know that that is not true (O.K. maybe religions have "adjusted" somewhat). I was recently reading a children's bible and it talked about how God made the Earth first and then made the stars, etc. later. Well, we know from proven science that that is not true. The universe is positively known to be approximately 13 billion years old and the Earth is only about 4 or 5 billion years old. So, obviously, God did not make the Earth first but I see nothing wrong with saying that God made the Earth and the stars and the universe. Just don't put your head in the sand and tell us things which obviously aren't true and expect us to take it on blind faith.

*MAJOR THREAD HIJACK, and I apologise in advance to the OP, and it goes without saying that I am not trying to start an argument, but rather would like to clarify some issues *


You do realise that the Vatican actually teaches and promotes the Big Bang theory (which was first developed by a Catholic priest, by the way) and evolution, right? You also realise that sacred literature is NOT fact, and many many adherents do not take it as fact. They believe that God (or Gods) created the universe, and these stories are merely that: stories in which to illustrate the believer's world view. Truth is not necessarily fact: The cherry tree story did not happen, but it is an American truth as it illustrates the honesty (and the integral value of said quality) to a group of people. Sacred scriptures is the same thing and most institutions (including the Vatican) teaches it as such.

Sacred literature informs us of the believers' view point and their relationship with their gods. In other words, religion tells us the why of existence, science tells us the how, and most religious peoples, excluding fanatics and extreme fundamentalists, have no problems with the two facets.* Furthermore, sacred literature - of all kind - is often taught in context. You can't just pick up the Torah, or the New Testament or the Qur'an, or the Bhagavad Gita, or the Pali Canon, and just say 'this is what they/we believe in'. It needs to be taught, which is why most religions that do have sacred literature either limits the study of the texts to those that they deem as being to properly understand or demands that it is taught in conjunction with lessons to properly contextualise what the texts are trying to say. You can't read The Declaration of Independence without understanding American history, can you?

I am an apostate. I really don't give a shit about God. That said, I am also fairly well versed in religion and science and their relationship with each other. As a cultural anthropologist, the above statements in the quote often rankles me. I do not want to start anything, nor am I arguing faith. But please keep in mind that the nuances of religions is much more complex that is being illustrated. Also keep in mind that there are between 1.8-2.2 billion people who calls themselves Christians and 14-15 million Jews worldwide (adherents to the Bible - Jews the Hebrew Bible, Christians the Christian Bible which also includes the Hebrew Bible). Do not assume that all of them are closed-minded, blind, scripture-thumping, terra-centric, anti-science creationists, because most of them are not. Like any extremists, it's the small minority that makes the most noise.

And this is very much coming from someone who has a serious problem with the Vatican institution.

Again, I don't want to start an argument. However, I felt that I had to point out the various assumptions and how damaging these misinterpretations can be to billions of believers, including the OP's fiancé and many Litsters on these threads that are religious in the Abrahamic sense who post in the How-To. Like everything else in life, it's not black or white

*There are over 8000 recorded religions, for what it's worth.



/hijack

To the OP, I truly hope that you find a way to connect with your fiancé sexually. Although my post may seem to indicate otherwise, I believe that his religion plays a minor role and that most of us hooked on that. As subwannabe said, it probably has more to do with his insecurities and his ego than his background. Good luck


* bows out respectfully from the thread.