Forgiveness

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Rose

What's your argument? Do you assert your learning is THE STANDARD for the entire planet? Or are you making a statement that your experience is different? I need to understand your argument better to respond.

Why do you suppose Jesus couldnt forgive his tormentors? Why did he petition God to do it?

 

[Recidiva]

I agree with this to a point. I think it also frees the "bad guy" provided he is sincere in his apology, and only he knows what is in his heart. If he is sincere and humbled by his bad actions then, to be forgiven gives him the opportunity to learn and try to keep right his future actions.

Does that make any sense? ;-)

It makes sense.

I think you're dealing with specific situations where a person has asked another person for forgiveness.

But taken on a larger scale, even events and circumstances at times need to be forgiven.

Do you forgive Hurricane Katrina for happening? Do you forgive being born with a genetic disorder? Do you forgive the hijackers who caused 9/11?

At a certain point, people have to come to terms with events and put them behind themselves, and to a large extent that involves understanding and forgiveness. At your own pace and time, not on demand.

Even people with body issues have to go through a process of forgiving themselves for not being their idea of beautiful or perfect.

If you can't let go of certain expectations and painful events by using forgiveness as a solvent for your expectations of what is fair, it's difficult to come to terms with the fact that things are inherently unfair.

Attempting to make everything balance is a human trait, and it's admirable to a certain extent, but "fair" isn't a reality for anyone. And that's a terrifying thought.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Rose

What's your argument? Do you assert your learning is THE STANDARD for the entire planet? Or are you making a statement that your experience is different? I need to understand your argument better to respond.

Why do you suppose Jesus couldnt forgive his tormentors? Why did he petition God to do it?

I answered your post. I've never said anywhere that my standard is the global one. You brought Jesus and Chrisitanity into this topic and I addressed it according to how I was raised as a Catholic and a Christian.

It's my reality and my experience and no one is obligated to agree with it, including you. Again, those are the ethics I was raised on.

I am not a biblical scholar. I can't intelligently speak on what motivated Jesus to do or not do anything. It was never my intent to bring Jesus or religion into this discussion. I'll leave that part of the discussion to people who have a pipeline with God.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROSE

The point I failed to make with INTHEWOODS is: The Jews cared about deeds. They didnt care about what they couldnt see in your heart. Their attitude was SHOW ME THE MONEY. If you transgressed you made amends for it in a tangible way, and you accepted responsibility for your conduct.

But Jesus came along and had other ideas. Being horny was the same as fucking, unless you happened to be a barren fig tree. And he was ambivalent on other occasions, too.

 

[A Desert Rose]

It makes sense.

I think you're dealing with specific situations where a person has asked another person for forgiveness.

But taken on a larger scale, even events and circumstances at times need to be forgiven.

Do you forgive Hurricane Katrina for happening? Do you forgive being born with a genetic disorder? Do you forgive the hijackers who caused 9/11?

At a certain point, people have to come to terms with events and put them behind themselves, and to a large extent that involves understanding and forgiveness. At your own pace and time, not on demand.

Even people with body issues have to go through a process of forgiving themselves for not being their idea of beautiful or perfect.

If you can't let go of certain expectations and painful events by using forgiveness as a solvent for your expectations of what is fair, it's difficult to come to terms with the fact that things are inherently unfair.

Attempting to make everything balance is a human trait, and it's admirable to a certain extent, but "fair" isn't a reality for anyone. And that's a terrifying thought.

yes, dolly I think we are talking about two different things here. And I can agree with your points to a certain degree.

I always love to read your perspective because it gives me a different angle from which to look at things.

Thank you!!!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROSE

I asked for your argument NOT justification for your post. I'm not attacking you.

If youre making a report about your experience, okay. It doesnt need a response. If youre making an argument, it does.

 

[FurryFury]

[hijack] Did y'all see all the flap about Kathy Griffin and her "offensive remarks about God?" LMAO! I wish I could do shit like that and it not affect my job.[end hijack]

 

[Noor]

An interesting day to talk about forgiveness.

 

[A Desert Rose]

ROSE

The point I failed to make with INTHEWOODS is: The Jews cared about deeds. They didnt care about what they couldnt see in your heart. Their attitude was SHOW ME THE MONEY. If you transgressed you made amends for it in a tangible way, and you accepted responsibility for your conduct.

But Jesus came along and had other ideas. Being horny was the same as fucking, unless you happened to be a barren fig tree. And he was ambivalent on other occasions, too.

At the risk of showing my ignorance and shallowness, I honestly can't see where you're going with this.

I know that threads take on a life of their own and more times than not, go in an entirely different direction than the OP intended. I accept that and would never expect that anyone temper their posts to JUST what I said in post #1. But this is going way off track for me and way out of my range of experience and intelligence.

I'm no authority on lots of stuff but especially not on shit that happened 2000 years ago.

 

[FurryFury]

At the risk of showing my ignorance and shallowness, I honestly can't see where you're going with this.

I know that threads take on a life of their own and more times than not, go in an entirely different direction than the OP intended. I accept that and would never expect that anyone temper their posts to JUST what I said in post #1. But this is going way off track for me and way out of my range of experience and intelligence.

I'm no authority on lots of stuff but especially not on shit that happened 2000 years ago.

Of course not and who would want to be.

However the shit on here we know pretty well don't we?

*winks conspiratorially*

 

[A Desert Rose]

ROSE

I asked for your argument NOT justification for your post. I'm not attacking you.

If youre making a report about your experience, okay. It doesnt need a response. If youre making an argument, it does.

I guess I have no argument then. I posted my experience and my views on your post. I'm not trying to argue a point or even really debate one. I'm interested in how others feel on a certain topic. Whether they agree with my views or not is immaterial. Whether I agree with them is immaterial.

I see it this way... you see it that way... this one sees it another way... I read what others say and how they feel and how they view something as fundamental (to me) as forgiveness is and learn from that. I think other people do, too.

At least I hope that others glean something from the opinions posted in this thread.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

RECIDIVA

I dont think letting something go and moving on is the same as forgiveness. The Romans had a phrase for it in their time. Roughly, it was YOUR DEGREE OF HONOR DETERMINES MY DEGREE OF HEALING. I'll find it and post it.

Within the Judeo-Christian model, a messiah is necessary because humans never acquire perfect honor to repair the injuries they inflict on God's perfect honor. So sin cannot be forgiven without the intervention of someone like Jesus who is perfect.

 

[FurryFury]

Some people see every topic as an opportunity to insult people and argue. Should they be forgiven?

 

[Recidiva]

RECIDIVA

I dont think letting something go and moving on is the same as forgiveness. The Romans had a phrase for it in their time. Roughly, it was YOUR DEGREE OF HONOR DETERMINES MY DEGREE OF HEALING. I'll find it and post it.

Within the Judeo-Christian model, a messiah is necessary because humans never acquire perfect honor to repair the injuries they inflict on God's perfect honor. So sin cannot be forgiven without the intervention of someone like Jesus who is perfect.

Jesus was absolutely clear about forgiveness, including that whole "turn the other cheek" biz.

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant:

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"

Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy times seven times."

Taken literally, when you get about actually practicing free forgiveness, it clears up a LOT of emotional clutter. It is advice that does not bear fruit until you've attempted the formula seventy times seven times, or are a quick learner who can grasp the benefits when you're not dragging the hate and anger of a lifetime of insult along with you on every step and have enough experience with the results of forgiveness, to practice it liberally.

It's as real to me as brushing your teeth daily. You may not understand the mechanics of sugars and acids and bacteria, but follow that guideline and you'll discover you still have teeth in good shape while others who think it's meaningless silliness lose theirs. The effects of resentment and hatred are toxic and wear away at certain emotional strengths over time.

 

[Recidiva]

Some people see every topic as an opportunity to insult people and argue. Should they be forgiven?

There's not really much to forgive. My sense of manners doesn't mean that other people have to follow my rules. It means they're unique and expressing something different from my point of view. I may not like it, but another picture, angle, view of life, is of value to me.

It's a bit like a picture of the dark side of the moon. I don't go there, but if someone brings back a shot, sure, I'll look.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROSE

Yuh, I agree. Everyone has an opinion. But the opinions arent equivalent because there really does exist a term with historical and philosophical antecedents. My opinion that forgiveness is blue with an ivory tusk and gold teeth is nonsense however you cut it.

 

[FurryFury]

There's not really much to forgive. My sense of manners doesn't mean that other people have to follow my rules. It means they're unique and expressing something different from my point of view. I may not like it, but another picture, angle, view of life, is of value to me.

It's a bit like a picture of the dark side of the moon. I don't go there, but if someone brings back a shot, sure, I'll look.

Another view is one thing. Being consistently insulting to others is another thing. I've dealt with far too many jerks already in my life. They hold no interest for me at this point, well except for letting them know I dislike their tactics.

 

[Recidiva]

Another view is one thing. Being consistently insulting to others is another thing. I've dealt with far too many jerks already in my life. They hold no interest for me at this point, well except for letting them know I dislike their tactics.

Well, their tactics are useless, so whether or not I like them doesn't matter. It's like them trying to hit me, but they miss every time. I feel pity for them. Being overtly insulting is just static. Makes it harder to hear what they're saying, but I can still make it out.

 

[Homburg]

HOMBURG

What consensus? There is no consensus about what forgiveness means; not on this thread. Read what people post.

Try this yourself. You've clearly not read more than five words of what I posted, and less of what many other people have posted.

But we're intellectually lazy. Well, you are.

Better intellectually lazy than intellectually limited.

 

[A Desert Rose]

ROSE

Yuh, I agree. Everyone has an opinion. But the opinions arent equivalent because there really does exist a term with historical and philosophical antecedents. My opinion that forgiveness is blue with an ivory tusk and gold teeth is nonsense however you cut it.

Based on this post then, why have any threads on any forum?

No, we are not all on the same page about anything. Everyone comes to a topic with their own life experiences and views. If those are of no value (based on your post above) then what is the point in this exercise, at all?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

"Honor est in honorante, injuria in injuriato" (honour is measured by the dignity of him who gives it, offence by the dignity of him who receives it) shows that mortal sin bears in a way an infinite malice and that nothing short of a person possessing infinite worth is capable of making full amends for it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

HOMBURG

You have no idea how much I've read. Your assertion is absurd. Set your ad hominems aside or butt out.

 

[Recidiva]

"Honor est in honorante, injuria in injuriato" (honour is measured by the dignity of him who gives it, offence by the dignity of him who receives it) shows that mortal sin bears in a way an infinite malice and that nothing short of a person possessing infinite worth is capable of making full amends for it.

In your interpretation.

My worth, my life, my forgiveness. I do not live in absolutes, I live in the real world.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

ROSE

C'mon. Youre putting words in my mouth with a strawman argument I didnt make. I said opinions arent equivalent. They arent equivalent. You say it yourself in your post, people bring their fund of knowledge and experience with them.

Y'know. You dont have to like me, you dont have to agree with me, and you dont have to respond to any of the scribble-dribble I post. Shit! Click the ignore button and be done with me!

But when all you do is try and find clever ways to disguise JIM EATS SHIT, it fails.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

RECIDIVA

INTHEWOODS has the same belief: I GET TO MAKE IT UP HOWEVER I WANT.