Forgiveness

[Recidiva]

I love my mother. I have never held a grudge. I don't hold anything against her but I keep in mind who and what she is. I don't let her have certain types of access.

I do spend time with her and hope that some day she will change enough that I don't have to keep my guard up with her. I hope that someday we will have a fuller relationship than we currently enjoy.

One of the problems with forgiveness when asked for it, is this; do they mean forgive me so I can feel better about the shit I did to you?

Or do they mean, I am truly sorry for what I did, I am working to change, you can now trust me to never do it or anything like that, again?

Often they don't even know.

There are many levels and ways to forgive because each case and each person is different, but being a dumb ass about it, just isn't on my list.

Forgiveness is for actions in the past. When there's nothing to be done and nothing left to do other than forgive, it's to free the person wronged of a burden or a grudge. It is letting go of the idea that things are fair or are going to be fair. That is in accord with emotional reality. Although we'd like things to be fair, they're not.

However, "forgive" and "forget" have separate meanings. You can forgive and try again. Or you can forgive and distance yourself. I wouldn't recommend forgetting either way, as statistics are of value.

 

[lil_slave_rose]

Well I could make a laundry list but deliberately hurting a child is a big one for me.

Rape.

Most murder.

Being cruel to an animal.

A series of things, asking your wife to get pregnant, when she does acting like the world has ended, then demanding an abortion and walking out.

So many things could be put on this list.

I don't consider myself a grudge carrier but some would. I consider myself a survivalist and a realist.

There are people I have loved that have not loved me back in a healthy way. Eventually you have say, enough and cut them loose. You don't have to forgive or forget because then you might let them or someone just like them in. In fact, it's difficult to NOT repeat those patterns. You just have to survive them and make better choices next time.

there is a way to forgive without forgetting and by learning from that experience. i won't go into a huge story about the things i've forgiven and not forgotten, but i will say it has to do with my child and an ex boyfriend. it took me a while, but yes i've forgiven Him. but i did not and will NEVER forget what he did. for me i HAD To forgive him in order to get the negativity out of my own life. it took me a LONG time to learn that lesson but since i've forgiven him my life is much more happy and it allowed me to move on and taught me alot along the way as well. great topic ADR

 

[Blushing Bottom]

I don't have much problem with forgiveness but I gotta tell you every time I come across this thread I think of this.

Forgiveness

 

[A Desert Rose]

So much good stuff to read here and no time. I'm on my way out to work for the next couple of days but will be back to read.

I'm glad it's been a topic that people can speak to and about. We all come to stuff like this with our own different colors and our own different corners. And I've already seen a couple of posts that I want to digest and respond to, myself.

Thanks for your input and opinions!!! Hope it keeps going for a while.

See ya later!

 

[pandoravampire]

I believe that where forgiveness is possible, and desireable, it should be aspired to.

But:
I was raised in a less than perfect household. Stuff happened that shouldnt of happened. To all of us siblings.
I will never forgive, nor will i ever forget. And yes, this hurts me more than it has ever hurt them. Denial is a very protective factor for them, its how they live with themselves. Their 'denial' prevents their sufferring and my forgiveness. I therefor have cut these people out of my life, and have done for 20 yrs now. So no forgiveness likely to occur. They are catholic. They are elderly. I anticipate some request for forgiveness at their end. At which point i shall say a resounding NO!

Sometimes, ive found forgiveness difficult within my relationships. The damage to trust, is not as quick to remedy as the forgiving is. But its worth it in the end. Trust can be built again over time if you both wish for that to happen and are willing to work on resolution that is mutual.

Generally in life, I have a personal abhorrance for 'atmospheres', and very ready to overcome issues and seek or give forgiveness.
pandoravampire

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

INTO THE WOODS

Jesus was all over the boards with his opinions. One minute he climbed up the Jews' asses because they limited transgressions to deeds, and thought sentiments were equally relevant. Then he makes speeches about knowing trees by their fruit.

I dont buy your contention that we can just make it up as we go along. Because when we do it like that, the whole goddamned past gets confused and muddled.

And its simply laziness to do it.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

HOMBURG

Your entire post is nonsense.

Scholars debate the meaning of words all the time, even contemporary words.

Youre another one who cant debate the merits of anything without flinging manure.

So far as I can see there is no general agreement as to what forgiveness is. We cant get past flicking turds and poking eyes with sticks.

 

[Homburg]

HOMBURG

Your entire post is nonsense.

Scholars debate the meaning of words all the time, even contemporary words.

Try again. I know there's big scary words in there, but I am not trying to stifle discussion of the meaning of the word. I am saying that you are ignoring common consensus for no useful reason, and not supporting your own contentions.

And you are resorting to your own ad hominems without attempting to address the argument. Nice.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

WOW
...and where did you come from?

INTO THE WOODS

Jesus was all over the boards with his opinions. One minute he climbed up the Jews' asses because they limited transgressions to deeds, and thought sentiments were equally relevant. Then he makes speeches about knowing trees by their fruit.

I dont buy your contention that we can just make it up as we go along. Because when we do it like that, the whole goddamned past gets confused and muddled.

And its simply laziness to do it.

 

[EmpressFi]

Forgiveness... that's a tough one.. yes.. there's the whole Biblical "turn the other cheek..." but even that has its limits, in my opinion..

Everyone's had things happen to them that they've either needed forgiveness or needed to extend it. How we handle it is as much a personal choice as our choice in lifestyle and shouldnt really be judged by anyone else.

But when we ask for forgiveness, another thing to keep in mind is HOW we word it. I had a friend (yes, had, I forgave her, wish her well in life, but I dont trust her enough to keep her in mine)who when confronted about something she'd said or done to hurt someone, would apologize in such a way that she never actually apolgized for her behavior, but instead apologized for your reaction. Malin and I used to put it this way. If I were to step on your toes, I would say, "Oh no, I'm sorry I stepped on your toes, are you alright?" But she would say, "Oh no, I'm sorry you stuck your toes under my shoe." The difference? One apology takes ownership of my action and acknowledges that my action hurt you. The other, places your pain solely on your shoulders.. it was your fault you put your toes under my shoe.

The lesson of being her friend is something I strive to hold on to to this day. Not as a grudge.. but to remind me that HOW I say something is just asinjured offended person's feelings first.

Also, we must realize that in granting forgiveness, we're not validating that person's behavior... we're NOT saying it was ok. To me, it's more of a way of me saying to the person who hurt me "I'm not letting you hurt me anymore, I'm moving on from this."

Just my 2 cents

 

[Exogenous]

snip

"I accept your apology and bear you no ill will" + "I think it's best if we part ways" = no more than a polite way of actually refusing forgiveness.

In contrast, genuine forgiveness would be: "I accept your apology and am willing to work together to get back what we had in our relationship before the offending transgression."

That's real pardon. Anything else is ultimately meaningless.

Sort of like turning the other cheek?

As it seems there are a few who have issues with grudge-holding moms, me included, I do practice turning the other cheek with her. I love her with all my heart, but I don’t necessarily like her. I want to always be there for her, even though it’s never enough for her, and she has no problems focusing on that aspect (not being enough). This is from a mother who has no concept of forgiveness, just walks out and requests that there be no more communication, as she has done multiple times to all three of her children.

Every time she wants to re-establish our relationship I welcome her, yet I am very guarded (because after 40+ years she has not tried to change in any way). Grudge? Or am I just being careful not to be manipulated and hurt by her again? I have come to accept her pattern of behavior yet I have to admit that at times it’s a struggle, but I cannot bring myself to completely cut her out of my life…I just keep an emotional distance, which does upset her, but I don’t know how else to keep my sanity (in regards to our relationship).

My ex was/is always apologizing for things he says and does. Yet, he does not change. He is like the boy who cried wolf. While I still have a relationship of sorts with him (because we have a daughter), I tend to keep him at a distance. If we did not have a child I honestly would no longer speak with him. I forgive him, but knowing from experience that he cannot change his behavior, I would choose to walk away, if not for our daughter.

Now, if someone was of the mind to work through transgressions, be they his or mine, I am all for it. As long as there is positive progress on both our parts.

It’s just that sometimes, the wrong doing, can be the undoing of the dynamic and it may not be possible to regain what once was, or move forward into a changed relationship. I forgive mostly so that I do not go through some long lamenting attitude; so that I don’t burden myself with resentment. I guess that’s a selfish frame of mind. I will say that it is not easy to forget, and continue a relationship on the same level, once a deep trust is broken.

snip

One of the problems with forgiveness when asked for it, is this; do they mean forgive me so I can feel better about the shit I did to you?

Or do they mean, I am truly sorry for what I did, I am working to change, you can now trust me to never do it or anything like that, again?

Often they don't even know.

There are many levels and ways to forgive because each case and each person is different, but being a dumb ass about it, just isn't on my list.

Now that is the $64k question. To me there is only one way to forgive, and that’s wholeheartedly. It’s how we progress that is different…continue on as if nothing happened, continue on with safeguards in place, walk away, or demonstrate positive change. That response depends on the type of transgression or if it is a wrong that is constantly repeated, etc. It depends on what one can tolerate and live with, and be at peace with, or not.

 

[intothewoods]

INTO THE WOODS

Jesus was all over the boards with his opinions. One minute he climbed up the Jews' asses because they limited transgressions to deeds, and thought sentiments were equally relevant. Then he makes speeches about knowing trees by their fruit.

I dont buy your contention that we can just make it up as we go along. Because when we do it like that, the whole goddamned past gets confused and muddled.

And its simply laziness to do it.

It's really frustrating to post something, and feel like you either don't get it, don't want to get it, or... ? I have no idea. I don't contend that we make it up as we go along. I contend that language evolves.

 

[RJMasters]

Forgiveness is no longer holding into account a debt or a wrong which was done to you by another or others. There are some instances where forgiving one's own self also comes into play.

Looking at a simple example helps to understand some of the themse about forgiveness. A person comes to you and borrows 1000.00 and tells you they are going to pay you back. You agree and give them the money on the condition that they will pay you back. Later the person comes back to you and says they are sorry they do not have the money and cannot pay you back.

When this point is reached, a promise has been broken. There was a promise given and through that things were exchange upon trust between the two people. When the person comes back and says they cannot pay back the debt, then they have broken the promise they gave and the trust upon which those things were exchange no longer exists.

Let's freeze it here for a moment and look at the two people involved. First let's look at the person who borrowed the money.

Here you have a person who is in debt to you, they did so the moment they took the money and made a promise to repay. For what ever reason they cannot honor that promise to you. The reaction here falls on a spectrum depending on the person. They could feel very remorseful over this because they deeply care about your relationship and they feel bad about not being able to keep thier word to you. This end of the spectrum represents those who are genuinely sorry and "feel guilty" for something they did and are asking for forgiveness. Usually accompanying this type of genuiness is asking for a way in which to undo the wrong and make it right. The other end of the spectrum is a person who doesn't feel bad at all that they broke their promise, probably due to the fact they were just using the person they borrowed the money from to begin with. They really don't care they hurt the other person or broke their promise. This end of the spectrum usually is accompanied by someone who will avoid personal responsibility, lie, and do or say anything to get out of the responsibility.

Now let's look at the person who has been wronged. The person who has been wronged is the one who by "trust" gave something of theirs to another with expectations attached according to the promises the other person gave at the time they took from the person doing the giving. When the debtor comes and says they cannot repay, it must be noted here that the person who gave is holding all of the decision making power here. They have the option to hold the entire debt 100% against the person, or they have the power to forgive the debt 90%, 70%, 30%, 100%, what ever they want, what is important however is that they have the power to forgive the debt or to continue to hold that person accountable for the debt. Its their choice. It is very possible to fogive this person of the debt they owe and with a lesson learned not lend anymore money ever again. Just because they are not willing to lend money again doesn't mean they haven't forgiven. So like others have said, forgiving doesn't neccessarily mean forgetting.

In relationships we often give parts of ourselves to the other person. By way of letting them be close to us, giving them power and influence, and these things are done by way of trust and implied promises to be faithful in how we manage them. There is personal responsibility which is implied and assumed. When we are hurt by the wrongful actions of another, this hurt is real and has value, in that it cannot be just ignored or pretend to not exist. There is damage and there is loss which is suffered by the one who is hurt, and the one who caused this is responsible for that loss and that hurt. A person who is truly sorry, will seek forgiveness and along with those actions will seek to do whatever they can in order to heal that hurt or make up for the loss. Sometimes this is possible, sometimes the hurt and loss is not something which can be healed or made up for.

Again looking at the two people involved here...the one seeking forgiveness is dealing with guilt and shame, the other is dealing with hurt, loss, and anger.

When we don't forgive, it means that we are holding onto that hurt, that loss, and anger. In otherwords we will not let it go. We may not get repaid what we are owed, but we are not going to let the other person off the hook or the personal responsibility of what they did. Sometimes this is actually good and can be a healthy response, especially if there is a tendency for repeated infractions by the other person, but this can also lead to a type of prision of your own making, by hanging onto the loss, the hurt, and the anger. When this happens, instead of keeping the other person in debt, you end up becoming a slave to the hurt and loss and anger, and it prevents you from moving on or being free.

The question is why forgive? Some would say that we have to forgive because we are commanded to forgive by God, but to have obedience to a law as the motivation behind forgiveness renders the very authenticity of forgiveness mute.

The person who has been wronged has the choice(or power) to forgive or not. If we go back up to what I mentioned earlier...the one seeking forgiveness is dealing with guilt and shame, the other is dealing with hurt, loss, and anger. The power of forgiveness removes guilt and shame, but it also lets go of hurt, loss and anger. So one good reason why to forgive is free youself from hurt, loss, and anger.

Another good reason to forgive is the idea that you want to treat others in the way you also would like to be treated. None of us are perfect and we all do things which from time to time hurt one another. When we hurt someone, and we have genuine guilt and shame over it, we hope that the other person can somehow find it in their heart to forgive us. It stands to reason that if this is how we would like to be treated when we make mistakes, we are then also obligated in some sense to give that to others as well.

Along with the above idea is the notion that how you measure out things to others, like judgement and forgivness, it is often the way of life to bring that same measure back to you. If you do not forgive others, then it is likely that when you mess up, you will not likely recieve forgiveness. Further more, to the degree you forgive others, is often the degree which you yourself will be forgiven. As I mentioned above in the example of the person borrowing money. The person who loaned the money can forgive only 50% or only 30% or 100% of the debt because it is their right and their choice. Many people will choose to fogive 100% because the believe in this princple of life.

A few other things I would like to throw to think about concerning forgiveness....

Forgiveness does not exclude punishment in all cases. Punishment can be part of the terms of forgiveness. A simplified example, if you did something wrong to me and you are genuinely sorry and ask that I forgive you, I may state that I am willing to forgive you but you first are gonna be punished for it. This may sound strange to people because they think forgiveness means no consequences. In many cases consequences are a part of the process.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=273908

Long ago I started a thread about dealing with guilt and the whole thread is actually about the process of forgiveness and reconcillation. I still think it has a few good gems in it for those interested in long winded reading.

Forgiveness is never a get out of jail free card. Someone has to pay. someone has to absorb the hurt as a consequence of the wrong committed. There is no getting around that. Someone must stand in the breach where the wall of trust has crumbled. To ask for forgiveness is not only a request for grace and mercy, it also implies a new or renewed promise. It means you are accepting the responsibilty of what you did was wrong, you are willing to pay whatever price it takes to pay it back. It means you will wait the time that is required. It means when you have been given forgivness you will accept it. It means you are making a promise to not behave in that same way again.

There are too many people who live troubled lives full of guilt, shame, anger, pain, and loss. Perhaps not a one size fit all solution, but I dare say for many, understanding the power of forgiveness is an important step in being mentally, emotionaly and physically well.

That is why mercy triumphs over judgement. Not that justice is unimportant by any means, but mercy can fix that which is broken, especially when it comes to broken people who are genuinely sorry for the things they have done wrong. Where they are not genuinely sorry, that's when judgement and justice is needed to help those who are oppressed by the tyranny of them who are indifference to the hurt and pain they cause others.

~RJ

 

[sexycaz22]

Forgiveness is a hard thing for me to do.

My father have left my mother for another woman, and he is still with her, even after 16 years, and possibly more. For a long time, I could not forgive him nor forget what he have done. It was only about 5 years ago or so, that I began to forgive him, but I don't think I will ever forget what he have done. The experience have taught me to be wary of men who say they are married. I certainly don't want to be the other woman, if they don't intend to leave their wives.

Another example; one of my really, really good and close friends have been going through a really rough patch, after splitting up with her boyfriend and she then rushed into another relationship with another boy. This particular boy, EVERYONE knows all about his shady past; i.e. having affairs behind his girlfriend at the time, and flirted and kissed other girls....and this friend knew what he were like and still, she jumped into a relationship with him. For a while, I was really angry at her, for rushing too quickly and angry at her for not listening to me. But then I realised this WAS not the reason I was angry at her. It was the way she treated me, she treated me like shit. She did not believe that I have helped her during the rough patch, when I knew I was THERE for her, but probably not in the way she wanted. It was the only way (at the time) that I knew how to be there for her. Even now, we are not as close as before, and I don't think we will ever get back to the closeness we used to have, and in some ways, it is sad, but I don't want to be treated like shit, again as I know she will do it to me again. She have apologised to me, and I have accepted it, so I suppose I have forgiven her, and I am now trying to move on, but again, I will never trust her fully and won't forget how she treated me.

I am trying to think of other examples;

Oh, yes.....another friend who were supposed to be my "best friend" have insulted my family with terrible words, and I shut him out of my life, vowing that I would NEVER forgive him. After a year, he texted me, asking to meet up and I explained why to him, and he apologised, and I forgave him. That's it... we are now good friends but will never be best friends again.

It takes me time to forgive...usually months or years....and for a while, I would be carrying a grudge, and it would make me feel bad, feel depressed and angry too, but I got there in the end...eventaully and started to forgive the people who have done bad to me.

Caz

 

[Blushing Bottom]

As always sterling.

Thank you for all of your efforts.

Forgiveness is no longer holding into account a debt or a wrong which was done to you by another or others. There are some instances where forgiving one's own self also comes into play.

~RJ

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

INTOTHEWOODS

It seems there are as many definitions of forgiveness as there are posters on this board.

The message I get from YOUR posts is: I HAVE A RIGHT TO MAKE IT UP HOWEVER I WANT.

And my message is: WORDS MEAN SOMETHING SPECIFIC and HAVE A PHILOSOPHICAL AND HISTORICAL LEGACY. Otherwise we end up with 6 BILLION meanings for every damned word, and any utterance becomes word salad.

So if I understand you correctly, I cant disagree more.

 

[intothewoods]

INTOTHEWOODS

It seems there are as many definitions of forgiveness as there are posters on this board.

The message I get from YOUR posts is: I HAVE A RIGHT TO MAKE IT UP HOWEVER I WANT.

And my message is: WORDS MEAN SOMETHING SPECIFIC and HAVE A PHILOSOPHICAL AND HISTORICAL LEGACY. Otherwise we end up with 6 BILLION meanings for every damned word, and any utterance becomes word salad.

So if I understand you correctly, I cant disagree more.

You don't understand me correctly.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

HOMBURG

What consensus? There is no consensus about what forgiveness means; not on this thread. Read what people post.

I agree with Griswold. "Forgiveness" began as something simple, like pardoning people who harmed you unintentionally or injured you in the act of doing a greater good. Killing the messenger is another example. Forgiveness, then, covered cases where resentment and antagonism wasnt justified by events.

When you go back and examine the historical record you discover there were all kinds of circumstances requiring their own special redemption rituals. And many historical events have their roots in the old meanings of words. Things make a lot more sense when you know what the Old Timers were thinking.

But we're intellectually lazy. Well, you are.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BLUSHING BOTTOM

Fuck off.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

Not bad for Lakeland boy two entire words to express one thought.

BLUSHING BOTTOM

Fuck off.

 

[graceanne]

I don't always believe it's best to forgive. I go against the stream that way. Some things are simply unforgivable. I don't believe it hurts a person to know that and live with it.

Forgetting is also something I think can be damaging. You are apt to fall into the same shit again if you forgive and forget.

Some things are easy to forgive though. Things that others think are a big deal I don't have a problem with.

It varies for me.

I don't forget. That's just silly and untruthful. There are some things that you can't forget, and to say you did or will is bullshit. Beyond that, as you said, forgetting opens you to making the same mistake. I've forgiven people, and still cut them out of my life so that they wouldn't hurt me again. Forgiving does not mean you have to let them do it again, it just means moving on and not allowing the anger and hurt to eat you up.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BLUSHING BOTTOM

Dear, I'm not in Lakeland. Put the meth down and come back later.

 

[A Desert Rose]

From what I know from studying Christian ethics, forgiveness isnt an arbitrary-voluntary act. Forgiveness is required once the transgressor does penance and atones for the transgression. But penance and atonement must be voluntary. Otherwise you cannot forgive, and the choice isnt your's to make either way. If they do penance & atonement, youre required to forgive.

If a guy gets drunk and runs your kid down, you may be okay with it and the man ( you might even be happy about it), but he's still obligated to do penance and atonement.

No, those are not the Christian ethics I was raised with. According to the Christian ethics I know, one is required to forgive any transgression and transgressor, regardless of whether that person has atoned or done penance. A Christian forgives whether the "bad guy" asks for forgiveness or not.

I'm a Catholic and I'm not grace-full or righteous enough to do that. But those are still the ethics I was raised with.

I don't understand the last paragraph. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

On a personal note: Could you possibly refrain from being so provocative and antagonistic in your posts? Your opinions and views on topics could be very interesting and thought provoking but you damage all that with your attitude.
Thank you.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Forgiveness is for actions in the past. When there's nothing to be done and nothing left to do other than forgive, it's to free the person wronged of a burden or a grudge. It is letting go of the idea that things are fair or are going to be fair. That is in accord with emotional reality. Although we'd like things to be fair, they're not.

However, "forgive" and "forget" have separate meanings. You can forgive and try again. Or you can forgive and distance yourself. I wouldn't recommend forgetting either way, as statistics are of value.

I agree with this to a point. I think it also frees the "bad guy" provided he is sincere in his apology, and only he knows what is in his heart. If he is sincere and humbled by his bad actions then, to be forgiven gives him the opportunity to learn and try to keep right his future actions.

Does that make any sense? ;-)

 

[A Desert Rose]

The concept of forgiveness doesn't make sense to me, unless there are tangible consequences for the relationship.


"I accept your apology and bear you no ill will" + "I think it's best if we part ways" = no more than a polite way of actually refusing forgiveness.

It's like walking away without punching someone in the face, giving the finger, or vowing retribution. Yeah, okay, on the surface you're being polite about it. But you are still walking. And in my book, that speaks just as loudly as a slap in the face.


In contrast, genuine forgiveness would be: "I accept your apology and am willing to work together to get back what we had in our relationship before the offending transgression."

That's real pardon. Anything else is ultimately meaningless.

I'm still thinking about this particular post. I'm soul searching this...

Might have a different take on it when all is said and done. Thank you for giving me something to think about.