Forgiveness

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

When Jesus was crucified on Calvary he said "FATHER, FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO." He did not say, "I forgive you."

Jesus understood that forgiveness involves more than our personal sentiments about what we experienced. On Calvary forgiveness was beyond his power to bestow because the Romans and others were not penetant and made no atonement.

 

[im_a_voyeur]

Great topic.

I've had 2 instances where I was betrayed by a close friend. One I was unable to forgive because it involved another family member. The other transgression only affected me so even though it can be rough going at times not to hold a bit of a grudge, I have forgiven.

Making a quick edit to clarify that it was two separate friends.

 

[FurryFury]

Forgiveness is one of the most powerful tools available to a human, I think.

I think it's often used unknowingly and irresponsibly, and rarely with wisdom.

True forgiveness is freedom from a consequence.

I've adapted to forgive people because to me, carrying the weight of judgment is too much for me to bear. I prefer to travel emotionally light.

Instead of remembering the pain, though, I do keep a small notation in the books. I forgive, but I do not forget. There are times when forgiveness, even when asked, is not available. Because consequences do not affect only me.

That's when I can't forgive, when it isn't up to me entirely. And almost every situation, affects another person. Then I wait for the person affected to direct me to forgive.

So if you harm me only, I will forgive you. Harm my children...? Not so much.

Hijack:

OMG!!!

I LOVE those lines from the Moore book!

I just noticed them in your sig!

What a great book that was!

Okay I'm done now.

Sorries about that hijack thingie, forgive me?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I'll argue that unless you let something go completely you have not forgiven, and if you cannot entrust your life or wealth or husband or child to the transgressor, without reservation or hesitation, you have not forgiven.

 

[FurryFury]

That is utter and complete bullshit IMO and I'm calling it.

 

[Recidiva]

Hijack:

OMG!!!

I LOVE those lines from the Moore book!

I just noticed them in your sig!

What a great book that was!

Okay I'm done now.

Sorries about that hijack thingie, forgive me?

LEGAL NOTICE: FurryFury is welcome and encouraged and asked to hijack at her whim at any moment. Consider this post as her engraved invitation.

(I'm in love with Abby Normal)

 

[im_a_voyeur]

I'll argue that unless you let something go completely you have not forgiven, and if you cannot entrust your life or wealth or husband or child to the transgressor, without reservation or hesitation, you have not forgiven.

What if you wouldn't have entrusted your life, wealth, husband or child to the transgressor beforehand?

 

[FurryFury]

LEGAL NOTICE: FurryFury is welcome and encouraged and asked to hijack at her whim at any moment. Consider this post as her engraved invitation.

(I'm in love with Abby Normal)

Me too! That was the best part of the book.

I'm moving over to the reading for pleasure thread to ask you a question about this book.

*winks*

 

[Recidiva]

Me too! That was the best part of the book.

I'm moving over to the reading for pleasure thread to ask you a question about this book.

*winks*

I'll be there with black nail polish on

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

FURRYFURY

Then maybe you'll profit from examining the philosophy and history behind forgiveness.

The orginal idea of forgiveness didnt include premeditated injury. It involved injuries the transgressor inflicted fortuitously (accidentally) or injuries that resulted from extreme circumstances. Like if your car is damaged in a collision, your brakes fail, and you run over someone because you cant stop. Or, your town catches fire and your house is intentionally destroyed by firemen to retard the spread of the burning.

Most of the posters here are confusing grace with forgiveness.

I've never seen so much ignorance in one place.

 

[Recidiva]

I've never seen so much ignorance in one place.

Well, be fair. You brought a lot of it in with you.

 

[intothewoods]

FURRYFURY

Then maybe you'll profit from examining the philosophy and history behind forgiveness.

The orginal idea of forgiveness didnt include premeditated injury. It involved injuries the transgressor inflicted fortuitously (accidentally) or injuries that resulted from extreme circumstances. Like if your car is damaged in a collision, your brakes fail, and you run over someone because you cant stop. Or, your town catches fire and your house is intentionally destroyed by firemen to retard the spread of the burning.

Most of the posters here are confusing grace with forgiveness.

I've never seen so much ignorance in one place.

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This: for·give (fər-gĭv', fôr-) Pronunciation Key
v. for·gave (-gāv'), for·giv·en (-gĭv'ən), for·giv·ing, for·gives

v. tr.

To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
To renounce anger or resentment against.
To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).

Isn't that what we're talking about? Renoucing anger and resentment against someone?

Your answers seem to be based on a belief that the Christian bible is the norm, and fact for everyone in this forum. It's not.

Also,

When Jesus was crucified on Calvary he said "FATHER, FORGIVE THEM, FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO." He did not say, "I forgive you."

Was Jesus really SO LOUD THAT HE SAID EVERYTHING LIKE THIS?

 

[FurryFury]

I've never seen so much ignorance in one place.

It's a bitch looking into the mirror so much isn't it?

LMFO!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

INTOTHE WOODS

A dictionary definition is something a panel takes a vote on. I'm speaking of the historical and philosophical legacy of forgiveness.

If the board participants simply want to take a show of hands, they can certify forgiveness to mean any damned thing they want. Scholarship is different.

The orginal definition of 'forgive' was something like "I accept your intention,' and it didnt cover malicious acts.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

INTOTHE WOODS

Actually the Bible is full of contradictions, especially when it comes to Jesus' mindset. He was all over the map at times.

No. I prefer a secular-philosophical model. And its more restrictive than the Judeo-Christian model.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

FURRYFACE

Lets stipulate that we both eat shit and let it go at that.

 

[intothewoods]

INTOTHE WOODS

A dictionary definition is something a panel takes a vote on. I'm speaking of the historical and philosophical legacy of forgiveness.

If the board participants simply want to take a show of hands, they can certify forgiveness to mean any damned thing they want. Scholarship is different.

The orginal definition of 'forgive' was something like "I accept your intention,' and it didnt cover malicious acts.

My point wasn't really that my definition trumps the historical and philosophical context of forgiveness, but that you made an assumption that we all buy into the Christian notion of forgiveness and grace. We all might have different ideas of what forgiveness means, so it does make sense to agree on terms, but the way you barged in with your ALL CAPS approach wasn't particularly helpful.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

INTOTHEWOODS

No. I think your real point is 'Jim eats shit.' But pretending that youre honorable and capable of honest discourse (sure you are!), I think you can participate in Christmas and not be Christian. I mean, you pick your words and terms, not me.

 

[FurryFury]

Lets stipulate that we both eat shit and let it go at that.

http://images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10077000/10077520.jpg

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

FURRYFACE

Awww. I'm never gonna smile again. I lied. LOL

I get told I suck, a lot. Really.

I got told today I do a perfect imitation of Homer Simpson. D'oh!

I suppose I'm just multi-talented.

 

[FurryFury]

If your are so stupid as to "entrust your life, wealth, husband, or child to the transgressor," you are not completely forgiving, nope, you are just being a damned fool.

You don't our gas on yourself, your family, or you world and then hand an arsonist a match, saying "I forgive you I really do." unless you are an idiot.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

FF

So what do you imagine forgiveness is?

It seems like forgiveness started out as basic fairness to people who hurt you without intending to, or because they had no choice but to harm you. I hurt a guy one time when his hair caught fire. There was no time to explain why I tackled him before I did it.

 

[Homburg]

INTOTHE WOODS

A dictionary definition is something a panel takes a vote on. I'm speaking of the historical and philosophical legacy of forgiveness.

If the board participants simply want to take a show of hands, they can certify forgiveness to mean any damned thing they want. Scholarship is different.

Language is the child of consensus, and it thrives only in context.

Dictionary definitions may well be less than accurate, but they are a useful starting point from which to enable large groups of people of disparate backgrounds to understand the meaning of a given word in similar fashion.

And the historical definition of a word alone is never sufficient basis for an argument, as language changes and evolves, a common theme around here it seems. One must take context into account.

I appluad your drive to examine the word from an historical perspective, and I think it is a valid move, but limiting yourself only to that historical perspective causes you throw out the modern parlance. This is a move that merely engenders confusion.

And I would hesitate to discuss scholarship without giving an attempts at citations. Personal choice there.

 

[FurryFury]

I love my mother. I have never held a grudge. I don't hold anything against her but I keep in mind who and what she is. I don't let her have certain types of access.

I do spend time with her and hope that some day she will change enough that I don't have to keep my guard up with her. I hope that someday we will have a fuller relationship than we currently enjoy.

One of the problems with forgiveness when asked for it, is this; do they mean forgive me so I can feel better about the shit I did to you?

Or do they mean, I am truly sorry for what I did, I am working to change, you can now trust me to never do it or anything like that, again?

Often they don't even know.

There are many levels and ways to forgive because each case and each person is different, but being a dumb ass about it, just isn't on my list.

 

[intothewoods]

INTOTHEWOODS

No. I think your real point is 'Jim eats shit.' But pretending that youre honorable and capable of honest discourse (sure you are!), I think you can participate in Christmas and not be Christian. I mean, you pick your words and terms, not me.

My real point is not Jim eats shit. My point is that what Jesus had to say about forgiveness doesn't take away from what forgiveness means now.

And while celebrating Christmas doesn't make you Christian, it sure as hell doesn't make you a Jew.