Forced submission

[lettinggo]

Interesting. Thank you for sharing.

Your first paragraph actually present a possible example of how easily things can get confused. On one-hand you say he "knows" that your against permanent scars for a "non-permanent" relationship(wonders if there is actually such a thing but that's another topic). But on the other hand you say he can manipulate you into doing it if he really wanted to. So this then is a point of trust between you that he will not or should not take advantage of. Yet let's look at this from a different angle. Say inspite of knowing your against it he still wants to brand you. Yes he knows your against this, but when he pushes you, you give in a little bit. So he pushes more...and you give more. Does he still know that your against this? Or has his perception changed? Maybe because you have not stood your ground clearly or used your safeword, but have allowed him to manipulate you, in his head, he is thinking that maybe you want to be branded and you just need a bit of a push. So he pushes you and you fold and get branded. Now you regret doing it and you see it as his fault as a breach of trust.

I find that interesting and eye-opening and troubling to my way of thinking.

He knows that if I gave in it would be because he's manipulative and convincing and I love to please him. But if I did give in, I would blame only myself. I have full trust in him that he wouldn't breach such an important limit.

Regarding our relationship, we very much enjoy what we have but we know someday it will come to an end. My dom is not my partner, and my current partner is aware and accepting, but it isn't a serious relationship. I love my dom, but we're not "real world" compatible (ie: we know we would not be happy in a committed relationship with each other). Someday down the road I'll want that relationship with someone else and my dom and I will part ways.

 

[alice_underneath]

RJ,

Thank you for offering tangible examples in this post:

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=17124254&postcount=51

That helped me get past the semantics issue and understand what you are talking about here.

Does force submission take place? yes. How often?

I'm guessing that this type of thing is really quite common. All you need are two people in a relationship in which one has power over the other, understands this power, and is willing to exert it.

My husband and I were planning a trip to Japan. He said: "I want to take you to the finest Kaiseki restaurant in Kyoto." The food served at this type of place is a tasting menu selected by the chef. Many of the courses are raw fish.

My response: "No way. You know I had a very bad reaction to eating sushi several years ago. I was violently ill for 3 days, and I am never, NEVER going to eat raw fish again." This was not just a simple aversion to sushi. This was outright disgust and genuine fear.

He 'made' me do it anyway.

How?

My strong desire to please him. My need to feel his approval, his pleasure, his praise. That gives him power, and this power is stronger than my virulent disgust at the thought of raw fish, stronger than my fear of vomiting all over the table in front of other people, and stronger than my resentment at being asked to do something I really, really don't want to do.

"Alice, I honestly think you will love the food, the presentation, and the ritual at this restaurant. Please trust me on this. This is something I want to do with, and for, you. I know this is going to be a difficult thing for you to do. But that just means it will be even more special for me if you come."

He says this, and he's got me. Did we go to the restaurant? Of course.

He knows he has this power, and he uses it in a struggle of wills to get his way.

Is it good or bad?

Like anything else, that depends.

Based on my own experiences so far, I would have to say yes - this is a wonderful thing. It makes life exciting and challenging and in many ways this is actually a win/win scenario.

In the Kaiseki example, I was shaking and terrified walking into the restaurant, and in a euphoric how-fast-can-we-get-back-to-the-hotel-room state walking out.

Other scenarios have ended in the equivalent of me throwing up all over the table in a five-star restaurant. But even those times end up wonderful in their own way, because of the humor or comforting that ensues after the fact. Even the 'bad' experiences bring us closer together, and are part of the exquisite and cherished tapestry of an intimate relationship.

However.....

You've got a real point of concern here when you point this out:

The problem. The psyche of the PYL to do something like this, is intermingled with that part of them that may be sadistic and dominant. Seems like a no brainer statement to make that conclusion, however what is hiding in the background is how that may bleed over from a consentual scene session into the relationship in how one mgiht exercise their dominance.

Turning now to a hypothetical and (for me) extreme example, let's assume that one day my partner says to me: "Alice, I want you to give oral pleasure to my best friend Tom. He'll be here next Saturday at 5."

Now we are entering a realm that (for me) is so confusing & fraught with angst that there is a very real danger involved in what he is asking me to do.

Just asking me to do such a thing might destroy part of my trust. Insisting that I go through with it would bring forth so much fear, insecurity, and confusion in my mind that the foundation of the relationship itself might be in trouble.

Alice

 

[catalina_francisco]

Not sure I would equate the sushi thing to force though Alice as all he really did was ask you to try for him and you did, which I think of more as coercion or appealing to your sense of reason. I know in my first marriage which was vanilla, there were times when he would express a desire to have me try something or do something, but in no way did I equate it to forcing me or my submitting if I did as for me that is just part of a normal relationship where partners ask things of each other, share the decision making, share tasks etc....I also asked things of him at times, but never saw it as him submitting to me, just give and take in relationships. If you had said you had an allergic reaction to eating raw fish which could land you in hospital I would have said you were both a bit dumb to go there.

Now the sexual example you used, could easily turn into force, though not if all it was was a matter of him arranging it and you not liking it but doing it anyway...once again it is a matter of you doing it of your own free will to please or show him you wanted to please. If he physically forced you, or used some form of blackmail or threat to get you there, it is getting into being forced, in my opinion anyway and therein lies the risk.

Catalina

 

[alice_underneath]

Catalina -

Regarding use of the word 'force', I am not really interested in arguing semantics. I am just trying to respond to the questions posed by the threadstarter here.

From RJ's first post on this thread:

Perhaps within a scene's scope, I can see how this can be expressed and be very hot, but from a relationship standpoint, its expression resembles more of a fish on dry land flapping around.

So there is fantasy and there is reality, I guess I am asking what part does forced submission really take? And what does that say to the realisticness as opposed to playing at being dominant/submissive?

What does forced submission imply at the relationship level? Good/bad? Real or unrealistic? Why?

In explaining what he wanted to talk about, one of his tangible examples involved public speaking.

That's not exactly something that "could easily turn into force".

Taking the quote and the example above into consideration, I interpreted his questions as including issues surrounding non-physical, non-sexual, real life situations in the context of a committed relationship.

I know in my first marriage which was vanilla, there were times when he would express a desire to have me try something or do something, but in no way did I equate it to forcing me or my submitting

In that case, the relationships are not even remotely comparable. No attempts to equate them will be apropos.

Alice

 

[John Doe]

Forced submission IS rape.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

[lettinggo]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Pretty harsh statement on a board where so many women have experienced the reality.

 

[John Doe]

Pretty harsh statement on a board where so many women have experienced the reality.

Oh I'm sorry, am I supposed to give a shit about the feelings of people I've not met and probably never will?

Besides, let's get real for a minute. How many of those people (because you'll be shocked to know that women aren't the only ones who are raped) liked it, and that's why they're here?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

Punk-ass bitch.

 

[RJMasters]

Its taking longer than I thought as I am very busy here. Its nice when you get 5 clients calling you, but bad when they all want it done now. I might be scarce a bit till I get caught up over the next few days.

I want to thank all who have contributed so far.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina -

Regarding use of the word 'force', I am not really interested in arguing semantics. I am just trying to respond to the questions posed by the threadstarter here.

From RJ's first post on this thread:
In explaining what he wanted to talk about, one of his tangible examples involved public speaking.

That's not exactly something that "could easily turn into force".

Taking the quote and the example above into consideration, I interpreted his questions as including issues surrounding non-physical, non-sexual, real life situations in the context of a committed relationship.

In that case, the relationships are not even remotely comparable. No attempts to equate them will be apropos.

Alice

I know they are not comparable but I do see it often of late that people equate the two, vanilla and D/s as one in the same in ways that simply are not. As to the scenarios of force, I still cannot see something which is asked and agreed to as an example of using force to get someone to submit. As I said, relationships in the mainstream survive well where both people are willing to give and take, but that does not mean that when one gives or accepts another's decision they are submitting and when the other gives or accepts their partners decision they also are submitting....they are just wise in the ways a relationship works and hopefully lasts through sharing and using each other's strengths when best suited.

Catalina

 

[alice_underneath]

I know they are not comparable but I do see it often of late that people equate the two, vanilla and D/s as one in the same in ways that simply are not.

Next time this happens, please let me know. I'll boil the tar while you gather feathers.

As to the scenarios of force, I still cannot see something which is asked and agreed to as an example of using force to get someone to submit.

I agree with you that the first word in the phrase 'forced submission' is problematic.

To me, the word 'force' implies a physical overpowering. Some guy grabbing me in an alley. I'm screaming as loudly as I can..... scratching his face..... fighting to the last breath..... etc.

But if physical force defined 'forced submission', then the 120 pound Domme could never 'force' her 220 pound sub to submit. Right?

As I try to understand the idea behind RJ's phrase, 'forced submission', it helps me to think in terms of power rather than force. What power does the Dominant exert to bend the submissive to his will?

From post # 51:

The point is, she knows she cannot do this on her own. She needs him to command her to do it because....

Because her love and desire for him...is stronger than her own fears.

And if you understand that, then you get why this takes place. Why it is desired.

That is something I can understand.

As I said in my post #77 above, I have a "need to feel his approval, his pleasure, his praise. That gives him power."

In a similar vein, Netzach wrote:

It doesn't happen by forcing anything, it happens because my slave wants to impress me more than anything.

I do not respect physical threats. Any thug on the street can overpower a woman, drag her into his basement, and force her to do many things.

But we are currently talking about force "from a relationship standpoint" (to quote RJ's phrase from post #1 on this thread). In this context, whips and physical threats will never control me. If someone tried to control me this way, I would simply walk out the door in disgust - as soon as I were physically capable of doing so.

What controls me? What 'makes' me submit? My desire and need to defer to the authority of my mate. What gives him this authority? My respect, trust, and love for him.

I do not fear him. I look up to him and have a need to feel his approval, his pleasure, and his praise. That gives him the power to 'make' me do things that I really, really don't want to do.

As I said, relationships in the mainstream survive well where both people are willing to give and take, but that does not mean that when one gives or accepts another's decision they are submitting and when the other gives or accepts their partners decision they also are submitting....they are just wise in the ways a relationship works and hopefully lasts through sharing and using each other's strengths when best suited.

I agree with you, though I am not sure why these comments are relevant to this thread.

Alice

 

[Pure]

answer to alice-- note to cat

But if physical force defined 'forced submission', then the 120 pound Domme could never 'force' her 220 pound sub to submit. Right?

no.

You forget about her two, 250 lb assistants.

Do you think jailers always, individually, outweigh the jailed?

Lastly you forget about a 'blanket' situation: Once the 220 lbs person is bound and shackled--by original agreement [or skulduggery]--his captor dom/domme can do just about anything, n'est-ce pas?

---
catalina--
i agree with the gist of your position. inside a normal relationship**, one shouldn't talk of 'force' just because, in the example, A persuaded and cajoled B to try sushi again. there are, of course, ways of legally exerting pressure. e.g. witholding conversation or sex, threatening to leave, threatening to be unfaithful, etc.-- but these have their limitations. i'd call them mildly coercive, since the coerced one can end the relationship.

however there are gray areas, such as 'If you don't do X, I'll leave and legally take custody of the kids.' that I would call extremely coercive. i would say that, in some sense it 'forces'
(in quotation marks) the partner to concede, though not literally.

again there are gray areas: holding a gun to someone's head, is coercive enough to be called 'forceful' by most of us. i.e., we say, 'he forced her to get into the car at gunpoint.'

---
**however, inside a relationship of extreme dependence, either natural [with a young child] or man-made, the threat of abandonment may indeed be extremely coercive.

 

[alice_underneath]

inside a normal relationship

OK, that made me giggle.

I'd ask you to define such a thing, but it really would be off-topic for this thread.

I gave the examples I did to show that there are many levels or shades of being forced too. They are all yes within the box of consent as far as the relationship goes, but in all three cases were unwilling on their own to do what was being asked of them.

I agree that there are levels or shades of being 'forced to'. I have a question for you, though, RJ.

I have to say that I am not so sure I am attracted to this. I mean it has an arousal factor that would make me leave protien on the ceiling in certain scene situations, but on the relationship level it scares the hell out of me.

Why does the idea in general scare you? I understand why this could be unsettling or even potentially alarming from the submissive perspective. But why is it terrifying from the point of view of the one in control?

 

[bridgeburner]

This all seems to revolve around the idea that it's often easier to get forgiveness than permission.

And that works fine until the time you go too far and can't buy forgiveness for love or money.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree with you that the first word in the phrase 'forced submission' is problematic.

To me, the word 'force' implies a physical overpowering. Some guy grabbing me in an alley. I'm screaming as loudly as I can..... scratching his face..... fighting to the last breath..... etc.


Alice

Force can come in many ways with the same result. What I said was simply asking someone IMHO is not using forcce, nor does the person who chooses to comply to another's wishes based solely on an expressed wish or request, being forced, they are doing what most people do everyday in a variety of mainstream situations in the interests of working together, co-operating, compromise, relationships. Being forced is a whole different aspect and is not limited to physical force.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree that there are levels or shades of being 'forced to'. I have a question for you, though, RJ.


Why does the idea in general scare you? I understand why this could be unsettling or even potentially alarming from the submissive perspective. But why is it terrifying from the point of view of the one in control?

From our own experience it becomes scary for the one in control because there is the risk, or question in the mind at least, about loss of control....because it moves into territory not many are willing to explore...because the line between D/s and abuse can be very subjective, fluid and mutable...because our conditioning often raises subconscious questions about whether certain acts are right, fair, correct, legitimate, or warranted with someone you love...because there is always that risk of overstepping the lines of safety and causing real and possibly irreparable harm....and there are a gazzillion other avenues the Dominant can find this challenging on.

Catalina

 

[Blushing Bottom]

IMHO and in short there is no such thing as forced submission unless the Dominant has disregarded the consensual part of SS&C.

I would like to start a serious discussion about forced submission. I am just going to throw out my thoughts and then shut up and listen for a while. I may ask for clarification should I have questions, but I have no other agenda here but to listen and learn.

Why is it that there is such a high arousal fantasy factor attached to forced submission, but the reality is rarely, it at all, realistic or practical.

In some ways after thinking on this I see this as the opposite reflection of the rape fanstasy in reverse. To some degree this is why I attribute high arousal factor to it.

Perhaps within a scene's scope, I can see how this can be expressed and be very hot, but from a relationship standpoint, its expression resembles more of a fish on dry land flapping around.

So there is fantasy and there is reality, I guess I am asking what part does forced submission really take? And what does that say to the realisticness as opposed to playing at being dominant/submissive?

What does forced submission imply at the relationship level? Good/bad? Real or unrealistic? Why?

I would appeciate your input to help me sort out my thinking on this topic.

 

[RJMasters]

From our own experience it becomes scary for the one in control because there is the risk, or question in the mind at least, about loss of control....because it moves into territory not many are willing to explore...because the line between D/s and abuse can be very subjective, fluid and mutable...because our conditioning often raises subconscious questions about whether certain acts are right, fair, correct, legitimate, or warranted with someone you love...because there is always that risk of overstepping the lines of safety and causing real and possibly irreparable harm....and there are a gazzillion other avenues the Dominant can find this challenging on.

Catalina

Nodding. This speaks to me

 

[RJMasters]

IMHO and in short there is no such thing as forced submission unless the Dominant has disregarded the consensual part of SS&C.

Thank you for contributing.

Let's say the Dominant has disregarded the consensual part.

Is it really forced submission?

 

[FurryFury]

Personally, there are a shit load of things I'd like to be "forced" to do. *grumbles*

Fury

 

[alice_underneath]

Force can come in many ways with the same result. What I said was simply asking someone IMHO is not using forcce, nor does the person who chooses to comply to another's wishes based solely on an expressed wish or request, being forced, they are doing what most people do everyday in a variety of mainstream situations in the interests of working together, co-operating, compromise, relationships. Being forced is a whole different aspect and is not limited to physical force.

I agree with you.

One way to distinguish between mainstream and D/s situations might be to ask: Does this happen in reverse?

Consider a woman who holds up an example of being pushed outside her comfort zone by her SO, or 'made' to do something in spite of very strong, deep-seated fears. Can she point to a similar example in which she was the one doing the pushing, or exerting pressure/influence/power to make her partner overcome his phobia?

In non-TPE situations, the lines between D/s and non-D/s at the relationship level may sometimes get a bit blurry. Asking this type of question may help to distinguish between the two.

I would define a D/s relationship as one involving a power exchange. The Dom is the one who is willing and able to use the power that has been given to him by the submissive.

How does he wield this power? That depends on the styles, personalities, and needs of the two people involved.

Show me a man with the character and strength of Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird, and I'll show you a man who'll have me on my knees calling him Sir for the rest of my life.

Imagine, for a moment, a hypothetical Mr. and Mrs. Finch in a D/s relationship.

She is willing to give him power in the relationship because of his intelligence, decency, compassion, calm strength, capacity to guide/lead/teach, protective and comforting stance, etc.

From her perspective, the times when he has the most power to control her are the times when he overtly displays those characteristics that made her hand him power in the first place.

This is an important point to make in understanding how he could push her out of her comfort zone, or make her go places that she really, really doesn't want to go.

If she has given him power primarily because she wants him to use his wisdom and strength of character to guide, protect, and comfort her, then she is in her most malleable state when she perceives that he is doing just that.

From Mrs. Finch's perspective, the moment when Mr. Finch sits down to have a calm and measured discussion about what he wants her to do is the moment when he has the greatest power to bend her will to his.

No whips. No threats. No haughty commands. But a strong and effective power nevertheless. This is how Mr. Finch controls his wife. This is how he 'makes' her do something that she would never have had the courage or willingness to do on her own.

From our own experience it becomes scary for the one in control because there is the risk, or question in the mind at least, about loss of control....because it moves into territory not many are willing to explore...because the line between D/s and abuse can be very subjective, fluid and mutable...because our conditioning often raises subconscious questions about whether certain acts are right, fair, correct, legitimate, or warranted with someone you love...because there is always that risk of overstepping the lines of safety and causing real and possibly irreparable harm....and there are a gazzillion other avenues the Dominant can find this challenging on.

All of this makes sense to me, and I thank you for responding to my question.

Alice

 

[RJMasters]

Personally, there are a shit load of things I'd like to be "forced" to do. *grumbles*

Fury

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree with you.

One way to distinguish between mainstream and D/s situations might be to ask: Does this happen in reverse?

Consider a woman who holds up an example of being pushed outside her comfort zone by her SO, or 'made' to do something in spite of very strong, deep-seated fears. Can she point to a similar example in which she was the one doing the pushing, or exerting pressure/influence/power to make her partner overcome his phobia?

In non-TPE situations, the lines between D/s and non-D/s at the relationship level may sometimes get a bit blurry. Asking this type of question may help to distinguish between the two.

I would define a D/s relationship as one involving a power exchange. The Dom is the one who is willing and able to use the power that has been given to him by the submissive.

How does he wield this power? That depends on the styles, personalities, and needs of the two people involved.

Show me a man with the character and strength of Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird, and I'll show you a man who'll have me on my knees calling him Sir for the rest of my life.

Imagine, for a moment, a hypothetical Mr. and Mrs. Finch in a D/s relationship.

She is willing to give him power in the relationship because of his intelligence, decency, compassion, calm strength, capacity to guide/lead/teach, protective and comforting stance, etc.

From her perspective, the times when he has the most power to control her are the times when he overtly displays those characteristics that made her hand him power in the first place.

This is an important point to make in understanding how he could push her out of her comfort zone, or make her go places that she really, really doesn't want to go.

If she has given him power primarily because she wants him to use his wisdom and strength of character to guide, protect, and comfort her, then she is in her most malleable state when she perceives that he is doing just that.

From Mrs. Finch's perspective, the moment when Mr. Finch sits down to have a calm and measured discussion about what he wants her to do is the moment when he has the greatest power to bend her will to his.

No whips. No threats. No haughty commands. But a strong and effective power nevertheless. This is how Mr. Finch controls his wife. This is how he 'makes' her do something that she would never have had the courage or willingness to do on her own.

All of this makes sense to me, and I thank you for responding to my question.

Alice

I do think we differ in our interpretations of what constitutes a D/s relationship and power exchange, but it does not surprise me as it is what I have been talking about in trying to draw a differentiation between mainstream and D/s. While it does involve a power exchange, I see variations and interpretations applied to this idea in an effort to claim a D/s relationship, which IMO is nothing more than everyday life and situations. I see on many forums of late postings made by people who admit they are in a vanilla relationship, will not go outside it or leave, and then the next week/month suddenly realise they are in a D/s relationship after all but never realised it...their interpretation, not mine. I see comparisons made between 50's style mainstream marriage and D/s with conclusions drawn that typical 50's marriage was in essence D/s...it wasn't, it was a product of a cultural norm at that time based on governmment and societal expectations and rules, and the fear of what would happen to you and your family reputation if you dared step outside it. To me this is a reaction of people looking in hindsight at a place in time and applying today's norms and expectations to it to make it into something they would like to imagine was real D/s. Believe me, if my mother had any idea what D/s was and it was suggested to her she was a submissive in the 40's and 50's because of the way she behaved in marriage, she would not leave you wondering what her opinion of that was and you would be lucky to escape with just a good tongue lashing for daring to suggest it.

I have also seen people suggest they are a submissive because in their mainstream relationship, they sometimes let their SO make a decision or ask their opinion on something they themselves are unfamiliar with and accept what the SO suggests...once again, this to me is a normal relationship, not D/s....after all, if applying this criteria and they are only taking the decision of the other partner part of the time, then that would mean when they were not, the SO muct be the submissive. In my relationships in the past, decisions were shared depending on who seemed to have the best idea, the most information etc., but that did not make the one who at each particular time made that suggestion which was acted on, the Dominant, and the one who accepted their advice or decision, the submissive...it is just life and common sense. If you are part of a team in the workplace, do people get labelled as Dominants and submissives each time decision time comes up? No, it is just about who is in the position to offer the best or most accepted option at that time.

There seems to be this desire to label everyone either Dominant or submissive, regardless of age, choice, knowledge. For instance, the scenario you give of Mr Finch asking Mrs Finch to do something, and why, could be just as easily applied to a mother/father and child situation, bt that is not D/s. I see people speak about their children from the minute they are born and whether they exhibit characteristics of a Dominant or submissive...it is ridiculous as what they describe is usually normal developmental behaviour and is being pre-ordained as a naturally occurring D/s role?!! Power exchange and D/s go a lot deeper than who makes decisions based on who has given over that control. For example, there are many people of both genders who just do not like having that power and are in a mainstream relationship...it does not automatically become D/s because one is happier letting the others guide the ship. Similarly, I think in all healthy relationships, D/s included, both people will bring out the best in the other, will sometimes give them the support (or push if needed) to step outside their comfort zone, will be there as a support in good and bad times, will supply whatever information may be needed for major decisions etc., but that does not mean they are D/s.

In our own relationship which is TPE, there are times when he feels I have far more knowledge about something than he has and trusts me to make the decision which will best suit us...he is able to overrule it as a Dominant if he wishes, but the point is this is the grey area where decisions are not always made by the Dominant, and also a suggestion or request to do something is as I said before, far removed from ordering someone to do it in a relationship where there is no choice allowed once that order is uttered. This is what I am getting at about the difference between having a choice but wanting to please, and being given an order you cannot choose to obey or not...D/s and free choice, coercion/suggestion and order or forced behaviour. I guess when it comes down to it is is subjective interpretation, but then I have never been one to feel obligated to comply with another's desires if they did not match my own and I had a choice.

Catalina

 

[Rick_47]

Forced submission is usually more mental than not, of a person,usually from a young age ,where as they became submissive and do not know any better than doing as they are told.They may be dominent for years as the grow older , but always return to submissive person wanting to serve the one they are with ,with no expectations for themselves.Don`t ask how I know.

 

[Blushing Bottom]

ROALMFAO

Oh Fury you do tickle me so.

I too would like....

d

Personally, there are a shit load of things I'd like to be "forced" to do. *grumbles*

Fury

 

[Recidiva]

Forced submission is usually more mental than not, of a person,usually from a young age ,where as they became submissive and do not know any better than doing as they are told.They may be dominent for years as the grow older , but always return to submissive person wanting to serve the one they are with ,with no expectations for themselves.Don`t ask how I know.

How do you know?