For U_D: The Danger of Unregulated Business (When Left to Their Own Devices)

Frisco_Slug_Esq

On Strike!
Joined
May 4, 2009
Posts
45,618
Let's begin from this basic premise as posited by so many of our good friends and fellow posters.

Business cannot be trusted to do the right thing; it is blinded by greed and this greed corrupts it therefore it must be regulated and over-lorded by government.

Business is made up of men. It can indeed be said that then if the business is corrupt, it is because the men are corrupt. Are all men corrupt? No. Is then all business corrupt? No. We know of many examples of business and men that we consider good, let me offer up the paragon that is Ben and Jerry's. So we see that not all business is corrupt. Shall we still say that all business must be regulated because some business and businessmen are corrupt? I think to say yes constitutes a wrong against the innocent and good. Is that our accepted notion of just jurisprudence? No, it is not.

What then of an industry? Can an entire industry made up of men and businesses be corrupt? Well, it is clear to see that only if all men and all businesses are corrupt can all of an industry be corrupt. Then again, it follows that regulating an industry to prevent corruption punishes innocent men and innocent businesses without the due process of law.

Does then the strict micro-regulation of an industry protect the citizen from the corruption of men and business? No, for what concern does the corrupt have for a law other than as an inconvenience to be gone around? It is the same as the macro-law (objective law which applies to the general circumstance) that you shall not assault another which is then embellished, for political gain, with the micro-law (subjective law which applies to the specific circumstance), you shall not assault another with a specific hate. Most reasonable men would admit that all but the most minute instances of assault occur without a measure of anger, another form of hate (by another name only). Therefore, it is sufficient only to have macro-law and just and equal access to the courts when one is damaged by the actions of another man, business, or industry.

In a market which is fair, one which does not punish the good in order to prevent the corrupt or punish them in advance of a crime or deceit. One might say it in this way, we don't round up and jail the ranks of the unemployed because we find that most all petty thieves are unemployed. It is easy to see that not all the unemployed are thieves. It is also easy to see that no matter the specificity of the law, men still steal. Death will not even deter need, even if we consider such need a petty and small one.

When we invite government into the micro-management of industry, we not only get no further protection, but we then also force business and government into an unholy alliance, for just as not all men, all business, and all industry are corrupt, neither is it true that all men, all government, or all micro-law is good and just. In fact, it follows that some must be corrupt and most likely in the same proportion as business for greed is not just the purview of wealth, but also of power. These are the problems with micro-law: the corruption of men, the corruption of politics, and the necessity of the good and the corrupt alike to form protective alliance from their new business partner. At the same time, the people lose its partner in justice.

When government makes a micro-law, it makes not a business decision, but it makes a political decision and it invites all parties to corrupt themselves or to be penalized by the truly corrupt. How is government going to make micro-law? It must employ experts from the field, academics, or political appointees. The first has experience and peers in the field. The second has theories and no experience. The third has goals and experience only in government. The expert is from the field and has the ears of his peer group and a standing to maintain in order to be accepted as an expert. The academic is untested in the field and owes his loyalty to the government for his appointment and his credentials to other academics. The crony owes his loyalty only to the appointer.

When government gets into the business of micro-law, then men get into the business of government. Honest men become corrupt men lest corrupt men bankrupt them in their greed. When government is in the business of macro-law, then two parties, the injured and the accused get to go into an impartial court and are given equal opportunity to present their claims. When government is in the business of micro-law the injured and the accused claims are assessed based on the politics of the moment, winners and losers are not judged on the basis of their claims, but on the power they have accrued with the government bench.

How do they accrue power? With expertise, with money, and with implied threat. The industry provides expertise to write the micro-regulation. They provide the campaign funds to get a fair hearing from the politician and when they don't realize a favorable outcome to the regulatory process, they shift their loyalty to the opposition politician. In this manner time, money and other resource is simply wasted and the citizen is then, no more protected for the laws are written by industry to favor industry, by academic theory and with political intent, none of which have a thing to do with justice and everything with corruption.

Government, which pays no price for being wrong is therefore a bad regulator of business. What then keeps the business form becoming corrupt? Objective law and the invisible hand of the market; the power of redress and the power to discriminate on the part of the consumer. Let's take the current obvious example, the BP Oil spill. Government did not prevent it. We see government was being bribed and advised by BP (the industry), that the regulations were simply inadequate, and the regulators were corrupted by the regulators and the indifference that seems to follow hand-in-hand with secure government employment. Government could help with clean-up and help with the justice due to the harmed citizens, but the citizens were not its partner and concern, business was. With the power of micro-law comes the encroachments of corruption in many forms of greed, not all, as pointed out before, of a profit nature.

(As an aside, with subjective law also comes the corruption of destruction as elements of the Eco-Left bribe and cajole the politician to hamper or even overtly harm the business, to become a virtual regulator itself based upon false expertise, academic theory and political outcome.)

And what of profit? In a free market with macro-law and an objective impartial court system, the harmed can enjoin with government to be made whole to the detriment of the business, but not of the industry. In a subjective court system of macro-law, government must consider more the needs of its partner lest its partner turn on it. In a free market, people discriminate against BP and they divest of its stock thus mitigating any gain from greed. In a regulated market, BP can mitigate damages by using the carrot-and-stick on its bedfellow. So the eventual outcome of the protection racket is that in one manner or another, the harm to BP is mitigated and spread out over the entire industry, innocent and all, as well as the people, the injured and the whole.

Under objective law, money, resource and people will flee BP, but not the government. BP will be punished sufficiently to prevent others from being corrupt.

Under subjective law, money, resource and people will simply flee in search of justice. BP and the government will remain unpunished with a diminished people in their bonds of corruption.

So it is clear to see, as pointed out in Federalist, that men will corrupt government as is the claim we are presented with that men will corrupt business. It is better for us to limit government and limit its corruption than it is to try and use government to prevent corruption for in the prevention their power grows and in proportion so does their corruption grow as factions of men begin to vie for their power, the honest and corrupt alike both in a sense of self-preservation and in the latter also that of greed. As their corruption grows there go all our protections from business as well as our government for once they have the power to micro-regulate an industry or a business, how soon before they turn on their fellow man?
 
Mom doesn't let him up from the table until he eats all of his porridge.:D

And they're going to be so disappointed to find no Rand quotes...

Maybe I should, just to give them something to shout about...

:D :D :D

When you work in a modern factory, you are paid, not only for your labor, but for all the productive genius which has made that factory possible: for the work of the industrialist who built it, for the work of the investor who saved money to risk on the untried and new, for the work of the engineer who designed who designed the machines of which you are pushing the levers, for the inventor who create the product on which you spend your time making, for the work of the scientist who discovered the laws that went into the making of that product, for the work of the philosopher who taught men how to think and whom you spend your time denouncing.
...
Every man is free to rise as far as he's able or willing, but it's only to the degree that he thinks that determines the degree to which he'll rise. Physical labor as such can extend no further than the range of the moment. The man who does no more than physical labor, consumes the equivalent of the material value-equivalent of his own contribution to the process of production and leaves no further value neither for himself, nor others. ... Material products can't be shared, they belong to some ultimate consumer; it is only the values of an idea which can be shared in unlimited numbers of men making all sharer's richer at no one's sacrifice or loss, raising the productive capacity of whatever labor they perform.
...
In proportion to the mental energy he spent, the man who creates a new invention receives but a small percentage of his value in terms of material payment, no matter what fortune he makes, no matter what millions he earns. But the man who works as a janitor in the factory producing that invention receives an enormous payment in proportion to the mental effort that his job requires of him. And the same is true of all men between, on all levels of ambition and ability. The man at the top of the intellectual pyramid contributes the most to all those below him, getting nothing except his material payment, receiving no intellectual bonus from others to add to the value of his time. The man at the bottom, who left to himself, would starve in his hopeless ineptitude, contributes nothing to those above him, but receives the bonus of all their brains. Such is the nature of the 'competition' between the strong and the weak of the intellect. Such is the pattern of 'exploitation' for which you have damned the strong.
John Galt
Atlas Shrugged
 
He's going to refuse to see the train of thought. Most with serf mentalities will as long as they 'get their share.'

It seems to go right over their head that their 'share' is shit. While the serfs fill out forms so they're allowed to get in line holding their cups out for their share of grog, usually less than a shot of cheap rum, the real beneficiaries are up in the sky boxes with the politicians popping corks on bottles of Dom Perignon.

We see that time and time again, does anyone remember what the tabacco settlement monies ended up being used for? (If you guessed 'health care', you'd be counted among the terminally naive.)

Government regulations, piled on deep enough, leads to stagnation and paralysis. Everyone is, understandably, upset over the BP oil spill. But I have yet to see ONE valid argument that would lead me to believe that more regulation would have prevented the accident, not one. I've read all sorts of anecdotal after action reports but not one that would indicate to me that the government could have come up with a regulation that would have prevented it from happening to begin with. Oh, maybe one, "Thou shalt not drill, anywhere, ever."

Ishmael
 
Obama knew it was safe...

He did nothing except hire Salazar to clean up MMS.







;) ;)
__________________
"It turns out, by the way, that oil rigs today generally don't cause spills. They are technologically very advanced. Even during Katrina, the spills didn't come from the oil rigs, they came from the refineries onshore."
Barack Hussein Obama
 
I think I need a Reader's Digest version...





;) ;) It's too long to read, like the Arizona Law.

They know what's in it anyway, so I'll let it stand it's well under 2000 pages...
 
There are extremes in any case….but god help us if we get another Microsoft, apple, Google, or facebook…unregulated, non unionized business is Evil! :devil:

how dare someone make a better life for themselves and/or employees! what will obama do when poeple are not on unemployment, welfare?





Let's begin from this basic premise as posited by so many of our good friends and fellow posters.

Business cannot be trusted to do the right thing; it is blinded by greed and this greed corrupts it therefore it must be regulated and over-lorded by government.

Business is made up of men. It can indeed be said that then if the business is corrupt, it is because the men are corrupt. Are all men corrupt? No. Is then all business corrupt? No. We know of many examples of business and men that we consider good, let me offer up the paragon that is Ben and Jerry's. So we see that not all business is corrupt. Shall we still say that all business must be regulated because some business and businessmen are corrupt? I think to say yes constitutes a wrong against the innocent and good. Is that our accepted notion of just jurisprudence? No, it is not.

What then of an industry? Can an entire industry made up of men and businesses be corrupt? Well, it is clear to see that only if all men and all businesses are corrupt can all of an industry be corrupt. Then again, it follows that regulating an industry to prevent corruption punishes innocent men and innocent businesses without the due process of law.

Does then the strict micro-regulation of an industry protect the citizen from the corruption of men and business? No, for what concern does the corrupt have for a law other than as an inconvenience to be gone around? It is the same as the macro-law (objective law which applies to the general circumstance) that you shall not assault another which is then embellished, for political gain, with the micro-law (subjective law which applies to the specific circumstance), you shall not assault another with a specific hate. Most reasonable men would admit that all but the most minute instances of assault occur without a measure of anger, another form of hate (by another name only). Therefore, it is sufficient only to have macro-law and just and equal access to the courts when one is damaged by the actions of another man, business, or industry.

In a market which is fair, one which does not punish the good in order to prevent the corrupt or punish them in advance of a crime or deceit. One might say it in this way, we don't round up and jail the ranks of the unemployed because we find that most all petty thieves are unemployed. It is easy to see that not all the unemployed are thieves. It is also easy to see that no matter the specificity of the law, men still steal. Death will not even deter need, even if we consider such need a petty and small one.

When we invite government into the micro-management of industry, we not only get no further protection, but we then also force business and government into an unholy alliance, for just as not all men, all business, and all industry are corrupt, neither is it true that all men, all government, or all micro-law is good and just. In fact, it follows that some must be corrupt and most likely in the same proportion as business for greed is not just the purview of wealth, but also of power. These are the problems with micro-law: the corruption of men, the corruption of politics, and the necessity of the good and the corrupt alike to form protective alliance from their new business partner. At the same time, the people lose its partner in justice.

When government makes a micro-law, it makes not a business decision, but it makes a political decision and it invites all parties to corrupt themselves or to be penalized by the truly corrupt. How is government going to make micro-law? It must employ experts from the field, academics, or political appointees. The first has experience and peers in the field. The second has theories and no experience. The third has goals and experience only in government. The expert is from the field and has the ears of his peer group and a standing to maintain in order to be accepted as an expert. The academic is untested in the field and owes his loyalty to the government for his appointment and his credentials to other academics. The crony owes his loyalty only to the appointer.

When government gets into the business of micro-law, then men get into the business of government. Honest men become corrupt men lest corrupt men bankrupt them in their greed. When government is in the business of macro-law, then two parties, the injured and the accused get to go into an impartial court and are given equal opportunity to present their claims. When government is in the business of micro-law the injured and the accused claims are assessed based on the politics of the moment, winners and losers are not judged on the basis of their claims, but on the power they have accrued with the government bench.

How do they accrue power? With expertise, with money, and with implied threat. The industry provides expertise to write the micro-regulation. They provide the campaign funds to get a fair hearing from the politician and when they don't realize a favorable outcome to the regulatory process, they shift their loyalty to the opposition politician. In this manner time, money and other resource is simply wasted and the citizen is then, no more protected for the laws are written by industry to favor industry, by academic theory and with political intent, none of which have a thing to do with justice and everything with corruption.

Government, which pays no price for being wrong is therefore a bad regulator of business. What then keeps the business form becoming corrupt? Objective law and the invisible hand of the market; the power of redress and the power to discriminate on the part of the consumer. Let's take the current obvious example, the BP Oil spill. Government did not prevent it. We see government was being bribed and advised by BP (the industry), that the regulations were simply inadequate, and the regulators were corrupted by the regulators and the indifference that seems to follow hand-in-hand with secure government employment. Government could help with clean-up and help with the justice due to the harmed citizens, but the citizens were not its partner and concern, business was. With the power of micro-law comes the encroachments of corruption in many forms of greed, not all, as pointed out before, of a profit nature.

(As an aside, with subjective law also comes the corruption of destruction as elements of the Eco-Left bribe and cajole the politician to hamper or even overtly harm the business, to become a virtual regulator itself based upon false expertise, academic theory and political outcome.)

And what of profit? In a free market with macro-law and an objective impartial court system, the harmed can enjoin with government to be made whole to the detriment of the business, but not of the industry. In a subjective court system of macro-law, government must consider more the needs of its partner lest its partner turn on it. In a free market, people discriminate against BP and they divest of its stock thus mitigating any gain from greed. In a regulated market, BP can mitigate damages by using the carrot-and-stick on its bedfellow. So the eventual outcome of the protection racket is that in one manner or another, the harm to BP is mitigated and spread out over the entire industry, innocent and all, as well as the people, the injured and the whole.

Under objective law, money, resource and people will flee BP, but not the government. BP will be punished sufficiently to prevent others from being corrupt.

Under subjective law, money, resource and people will simply flee in search of justice. BP and the government will remain unpunished with a diminished people in their bonds of corruption.

So it is clear to see, as pointed out in Federalist, that men will corrupt government as is the claim we are presented with that men will corrupt business. It is better for us to limit government and limit its corruption than it is to try and use government to prevent corruption for in the prevention their power grows and in proportion so does their corruption grow as factions of men begin to vie for their power, the honest and corrupt alike both in a sense of self-preservation and in the latter also that of greed. As their corruption grows there go all our protections from business as well as our government for once they have the power to micro-regulate an industry or a business, how soon before they turn on their fellow man?
 
comparing Ben and Jerry with a company like BP is a tad disingenous. you think that industries that have the potential to devestate economies and the environment should be unregulated?
 
comparing Ben and Jerry with a company like BP is a tad disingenous. you think that industries that have the potential to devestate economies and the environment should be unregulated?

AJ is famous for his broad overgeneralizations. He's also master the art of "False Equivalency", "strawman" and "ad hominem".

If you really want a giggle, ask him what "ad hominem by class" is.
 
Business is made up of men. It can indeed be said that then if the business is corrupt, it is because the men are corrupt. Are all men corrupt? No. Is then all business corrupt? No. We know of many examples of business and men that we consider good, let me offer up the paragon that is Ben and Jerry's. So we see that not all business is corrupt. Shall we still say that all business must be regulated because some business and businessmen are corrupt? I think to say yes constitutes a wrong against the innocent and good. Is that our accepted notion of just jurisprudence? No, it is not.

What then of an industry? Can an entire industry made up of men and businesses be corrupt? Well, it is clear to see that only if all men and all businesses are corrupt can all of an industry be corrupt. Then again, it follows that regulating an industry to prevent corruption punishes innocent men and innocent businesses without the due process of law.

There are a breathtaking number of logical fallacies in the above two paragraphs.

Can you count them all?
 
We still need oil. Putting a propeller beanie on top of your car doesn't help it go very far (despite the best liberal caterwalling). Propeller beanies aren't very good for keeping your home warm in the winter either. Please keep that in mind.

The only viable alternative the dems have proposed so far is capturing the hot air coming out of Obama and the Washington Spin Machine and some how funnelling that into warming our cold winter homes.

I think that makes a pretty spiffy name for a band....Obama and the Washington Spin Machine.....has a certain ring to it.
 
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I don't have time to read the OP in detail now, but I want to get back to this thread. I'll just draw attention to your tendentious use of the word "greed".

No such scare-word is needed. "Legal responsibility to the shareholder, under current laws" will do the same work.

There will always be greedy men. There's not much point in demonizing them. We just need the right system.
 
I don't have time to read the OP in detail now, but I want to get back to this thread. I'll just draw attention to your tendentious use of the word "greed".

No such scare-word is needed. "Legal responsibility to the shareholder, under current laws" will do the same work.

There will always be greedy men. There's not much point in demonizing them. We just need the right system.

AJ unleashes his inner Gingrich: 7 "greeds", 25 "corrupt", and a smattering of "unholy" and other verbal vomitage.

Reader's Digest version of AJ's tantrum: "If rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it".

Hey AJ? How is that Magic Invisible Hand Of The Market doin' on the oil spill cleanup? Hmmm?
 
AJ unleashes his inner Gingrich: 7 "greeds", 25 "corrupt", and a smattering of "unholy" and other verbal vomitage.

Reader's Digest version of AJ's tantrum: "If rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it".

Hey AJ? How is that Magic Invisible Hand Of The Market doin' on the oil spill cleanup? Hmmm?

Having chastized Frisco for "greed", I don't want to cosign to "rape", but I will say that "relax and enjoy it" is another way to put the old libertarian/social darwinism tautology. The ruling class deserves to rule, if they didn't, our meritocratic system wouldn't have appointed them, would it?

Replace "market" with "God" and you've got the divine right of kings.

As far as the oil spill goes....the market is not to blame! Regulation is obviously at fault. (I predicted in a beebs thread the other day that we'd see an entire cottage industry spring up around that Krauthammer column blaming liberals for deep water drilling and its dangers).
 
I love how so-called libertarians (actually Corporate sycophants in Libertarian clothing) espouse that the free market is the cure for all of the ills of corporate misbehavior. Then out of the other side of their mouths complain about corporations being unduly chastised in "the court of public opinion", failing to realize that the court of public opinion IS the very "invisible hand of the market" they say will regulate in the absence of government regulation, flexing into a fist.

:cool:
 
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are you saying that market conditions (bad leadership, corporation behavior) will not put a company out of business?

The other issue with this, America’s are upset that almost every manufacturing job has moved to China, but where do these people shop? Wal-Mart. :rolleyes:






I love how so-called libertarians (actually Corporate sycophants in Libertarian clothing) espouse that the free market is the cure for all of the ills of corporate misbehavior. Then out of the other side of their mouths complain about corporations being unduly chastised in "the court of public opinion", failing to realize that the court of public opinion IS the very "invisible hand of the market" they say will regulate in the absence of regulation flexing into a fist.

:cool:
 
The other issue with this, America’s are upset that almost every manufacturing job has moved to China, but where do these people shop? Wal-Mart. :rolleyes:

Jen...the average shopper, in rural, suburban or exurban America...has no choice. Wal-Mart is the only game in town. That's the whole point. They drive competitors out of business to force you to shop there.
 
Jen...the average shopper, in rural, suburban or exurban America...has no choice. Wal-Mart is the only game in town. That's the whole point. They drive competitors out of business to force you to shop there.

there's usually a TARGET within easy driving distance of a WalMart...Costco too
 
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