For the unregistered Hooser posing as a christian

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Hades yeah I am pissed, and I don't get pissed to damn often, but I am making an exception for you ya hoosier.

Do you open your bible much or do you just go ohhh, ahhhh when the preacher opens his mouth and takes what comes out as gospel truth without question?

The bible does not condemn any aspect of BDSM between a man and his wife, and even if it did, for those here who live this lifestyle they have choosen most comfortable for themselves even if it did condemn it, those who are not christians need not worry about what the bible says about it, and niether should you.

The bible was written by inspiration of God for those who believe in Him and accept him. Originally, the old testament, was guidlines for the Jewish people, now combined, new testament and old, are for the christians.

The standards of the bible are not meant for those who do not believe them or accept them.

In fact I recall, without thumping out the verses, and I will paraphrase here:

Judge not lest ye be judged. That sound familiar.

how's about?

Let him without sin cast the first stone? Oh your a good christian you do everything the bible says and have no sin. If this place is in your eyes as you have already stated sinful, then your sinning by being here. So why you casting the stones.

REprinted by request

Christianity & BDSM ???
"Oh those christians they are so staunch they only have sex for babies and even then its only missionary style."

Heard that phrase often? I have.

Christianity and sex its been a strange twisted dark road.

From the church fathers some of whom left thier wives for thier beliefs, from baptists televangelists picking up a little skin on the corner, from catholic priests and bishops and cardinals plowing boys bums in confessional, from break away faiths/cults whose oversexed leaders used continued revelation to condon thier promiscuious ways. The list can and does go on, there is not one sect that holds any ties to christianity that does not have some dark closet secret hidden away about sexual activities.

So lets not look at what denomination might say over another about lets take a peek between the pages all christian tied religions have in common the bible.

What does the bible say is inappropriate sexual relations? Well first before we begin it should be known that the bible is a guide book for those who believe in it, christians, it is not a guide or any authority over those who do no believe in it. So if a christian tried to condemn someone who is not a christian by right of the bible, there condemnation is worthless and null arguement as the bible's instructions are not meant for the nonchristian.

Ok where was I? Oh yeah What does the Bible say is inappropriate sexual relations? For a christan there seem to be 3 things that are inappropriate. Sexual relations outside of marriage. Sexual relations with the common gender. and sexual relations with multiple partners.

So the number one thing that the bible seems to say about sexual relations is that sexual relations should be between a man and woman and within the confines of marriage.

Aside from being man and wife there seem to no regulations of what can and cannot go on in a sexual relations.

Now WriterDom, presented some verse that are what some like to call "proof texts". Proof texts are texts that are hauled out used to prove a view point. The problem with proof texting is that they are generally, and in the case Writer Dom gave, taken completely out of context.

What was presented is usually what most feminist, the mean kind, like to present and say that the bible is written by chauvinistic males. And the sheeple{cross breed between people and sheep, looks like a person but follows the leader regardless what the leader does, just like a sheep} women who follow them accept that blindly with out ever opening the bible and seeing what is actually being said at the time with that quoted chauvinistic verse.

Anyways, Sorry got sidetracked there, I apologize. In Conclusion, the Bible the basis of what ever christiaty sect you want to adher to or look at simply says the man and his woman must be married for sexual relations. There is no restrictions on what that man and woman partake of for sexual relations in there bonds of marriage.

On a side note, there are a few passages that speak of how we are to care for our body and not purposely damage unto it, as it in a few places is refered to as our Temple for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and should be a ready vessel. But again like with anything else, the bible is written for the believer and can only be used in guideline for the believer.

Anywho, I been much to long and boring, I hope that wasn't to confusiling. Thanks.

Take care.

 

[RisiaSkye]

Todd, sometimes I could just kiss you.

Or spank you, if you prefer.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Todd, sometimes I could just kiss you.

Or spank you, if you prefer.

both possibly ????

PM me when you have time, nothing major or very important just want to talk and not have this be a "chat room" forum

 

[Sandia]

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people... If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife.

Exodus 21:7-10.

If a man has sexual relations with a woman who is a slave, designated for another man but not ransomed or given her freedom, an inquiry shall be held.

Leviticus 19:20.

I couldn't find anything in relation to the usages of male sex slaves though. I'll keep looking...

Sandia.

 

[MissTaken]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Opinions often begin based on intrinsic and long term values and mores set forth by family, community and church.

I think having a reasonable discussion re: BDSM and religion is a great idea for a thread and should include all belief systems, including people who think I may go to hell for wearing weighted nipple clips.

I would much prefer that anyone who engages in such a discussion, remain sane and responsible in their responses.

Of course, I am throwing rocks in a glass house as my original reply to unreg was mostly serious as well as dripping with sarcasm.

However, he believes we are bad, bad people and is so entitled. He is not entitled to flame us nor are we entitled to flame him.

Mmmm just my two cents ....

And yes, Todd I am glad you ar posting as you are most qualified to visit both sides of the fence.

Thanks, hon.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people... If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife.

Exodus 21:7-10.

If a man has sexual relations with a woman who is a slave, designated for another man but not ransomed or given her freedom, an inquiry shall be held.

Leviticus 19:20.

I couldn't find anything in relation to the usages of male sex slaves though. I'll keep looking...

Sandia.

I apologize Sandia but I am going to have to say the same thing I would say to Jerry Flawswell, Baker, Jack Van Impe etc. when they do what you just did.

Threee words . . . context, context, context.

The context of either of these verse is not talking about sex slaves, nor are they coevenant and dispensationally usable for christian life style.

The verses come into play in regards to normal slaves, but that in itself is a misunderstnading of translation. most of the words translated into slave in the english in the Old Testament, these two passages inclusive, speak not of a slave as you and I know of it of the early Northamerican slave but more of what you and I would understand better as an indentured servant or a personal employee.

the first pasage you refer to is the custom of taking/buying a slave female as opposed to a male slave. A male slave if he didn't suit your needs you were able to dispose of him however you felt best, sell to a foriegn nation etc.

I noticed you did a classic Jack Van Impe and left out a whole verse which without the verse as you presented really twists the context.

9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.

The owner could bethroth his slave girl to his son, key word betroth, hold to narriage. Sometimes though a rebellious son would divorce. the continuation then in verse 10 is showing that the slave is to be taken care of in such a case, not to be neglected by lack of respect.

11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

goes on to show what happens if the owner fails to comply with meeting his slaves need. She gains her freedom at no cost to her or any exterior person.

The next passage is a pseduo adultery case presentation , pseudo in the case that she is not married , but adultery as in the application of the result for willful intention of both the man and the woman.







{Doesn't he ever shut the FUCK up}





With that explaination I think I will stop there before I get to boring. It is nothing against you Sandia just the method of poor context you used, Take cares :kisses:





{'Bout damn time he shut his cake hole.}

 

[Sandia]

No, I'm sorry. Y'all found me out. Truth is I'm one of those bitter ex-religious people. <sigh>

I'd argue with you about context and translations, but it'd be pretty lame, I think. I will, though, present my opinion, to set the record straight.

The Old Testament is a wonderful book. It's full of great mythology, history, and cultural references that reverberate throughout Western cultural history and literature.

But it was written by folks who had a culture that's totally foreign to our own; one that, in fact is diametrically opposed to the values that most people - including most Christians - hold dear.

I get frustrated with fundamentalists (there are still a few of them left) who quote a passage like the "kill the faggots" one without referencing all the rest - putting it in context, so to speak.

I'm feeling the urge to start quoting again, so I'll stop myself here.

But, again, for the record, I do love the Gospels. I think Jesus was a wonderful example, and his message was (and is) profound. I wish more people could be like him.

I generally do resist the urge to try to argue other peeps out of their faith. After all, I'd love it if I had faith. But Lit has been sorta freeing for me, and every once in a while, the little troll inside me gets out.

Sandia.

 

[SpectreT]

Todd-Man!

Cool!

I'm glad cym pm'd ya on this one. I was afraid I'd have to read that thing again. It always depresses me. It reminds me how far short of being the man I'd like to be I really am, and distracts me from being the best me I can possibly be. I could go and look up "Proof Texts" all freakin' day to debunk anyone who said this "lifestyle" was sending us to hell, do not pass "go", do not collect $200.

But that's not my best talent. I always say leave it to the experts, until you find something I'm expert in. Then leave it to me.

I have faith, but I have no religion. I guess I'm one of those "not Christians" Todd mentioned earlier.

 

[morninggirl5]

I've spent more time praying in the past week than probably in the past three months.

When you come to the end of this life, i really don't think how you choose to show your love for another is going to be all that important. In fact, i'm pretty sure that it's going to mean practically nothing.




I haven't read what inspired this, but whoever you are, come visit me for an hour or so. I'm sure your "Christian" perspective about what's important will change just a bit.

 

[WriterDom]

It isn't hard for an atheist troll to fabricate a Christian post. And then reel in the fish.

 

[Guest]

It isn't hard for an atheist troll to fabricate a Christian post. And then reel in the fish.

And B-I-N-G-O was his name-o.

 

[Never]

Um.
I'm sorry, just I have a bit of a problem taking someone seriously when they make up a word like 'sheeple' and use it in their serious essay.

Though it did give me a chuckle.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

No, I'm sorry. Y'all found me out. Truth is I'm one of those bitter ex-religious people. <sigh>

Don't worry about it Sandia, I was not meaning you any ill will. From what I have read of you I believe you to be a fine person.

I'd argue with you about context and translations, but it'd be pretty lame, I think. I will, though, present my opinion, to set the record straight.

I been arguing with myself and pastors for a long time since I gave up religion, and took up my own cross of sorts. I don't come from a christian or religious background, in fact a militant athiest one. So I know a lot about context and bashing and "contradictions"

The Old Testament is a wonderful book. It's full of great mythology, history, and cultural references that reverberate throughout Western cultural history and literature.

Well I agree with the history and cultural reference that reverb of a middle eastern sound, might be it was written for the Hebrew peoples. As for it reverbing through our western cultural history, as much as I would love to say canada and America were founded on Christian principles, I am afraid I would have to disagree. I would have some leaders through out both nations historys may have used bits and pieces or the name of the bible int thier quess for peace/prosperity but never the whole concept of it, the bible, itself. I hate hearing chrisian say that either nation was founded on christianity, its not true no matter how one chooses to rewrite thier history or the men invovled therein.

But it was written by folks who had a culture that's totally foreign to our own; one that, in fact is diametrically opposed to the values that most people - including most Christians - hold dear.

Very true, so very true, I agree with you 100%. But might I add the bible is not so much to the christian to be a cultural guidebook, but rather a spiritual guidebook. As well like I mention above in another post there are ages of covenants and dispensations that need to be reflected upon and understood, sometimes easy sometimes more complex in nature, I am still teaching myself as I go, with an open mind readily questioning all I read. It's no Cat in the hat by Dr. Seuss or Carrie by Stephen King to say the least.

I get frustrated with fundamentalists (there are still a few of them left) who quote a passage like the "kill the faggots" one without referencing all the rest - putting it in context, so to speak.

I am a fundamentalists, I like to say that i put the mental fun back into being an ist again. Seriously though most of these "fundamentalists", and I could probably name a dozen that would be in your mind as well, are more and mre scam artists. Men and women who once may have been true to the Bible but have since tasted power, fame and fortune and now use the Bible out of context to further fulfill thier own means. It is so sad to watch men and women who I thought were being true to the word in essence turn thier backs on it, and use it in a way it was not meant to be for thier own good and advancement. The most recent once that saddened me was watching Jack Van Impe turn away as he did. I believe he was a good godly man at one time who's ministry got to big and went to his head.

I'm feeling the urge to start quoting again, so I'll stop myself here.

It's alright I don't get made or arguementative, check out My original thread where RisiaSkye and I discussed our opposing views in a civil Manner, It is possible.

But, again, for the record, I do love the Gospels. I think Jesus was a wonderful example, and his message was (and is) profound. I wish more people could be like him.

So do I, so do I

I generally do resist the urge to try to argue other peeps out of their faith. After all, I'd love it if I had faith. But Lit has been sorta freeing for me, and every once in a while, the little troll inside me gets out.

Hey if I wasn't argued out of my faith I would still be an athiest

Sandia.

Hus to you {{{Sandia}}}

Todd

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Re: Todd-Man!

Cool!

Really ???

I'm glad cym pm'd ya on this one. I was afraid I'd have to read that thing again. It always depresses me. It reminds me how far short of being the man I'd like to be I really am, and distracts me from being the best me I can possibly be. I could go and look up "Proof Texts" all freakin' day to debunk anyone who said this "lifestyle" was sending us to hell, do not pass "go", do not collect $200.

An easy proof text to remember Genesis 1:1 - Revelation 21:22 to refute anyone saying that this life style is bad.

But that's not my best talent. I always say leave it to the experts, until you find something I'm expert in. Then leave it to me.

One time I was talking to a professor, I admired how she seemed to know everything and how I thought she was an expert, she wrote the following on the chalk board and it stuck with me.

X = An unknown quanity
Sp{u}ert = A Drip under pressure

Get it? We are all experts when we want to be

I have faith, but I have no religion. I guess I'm one of those "not Christians" Todd mentioned earlier.

SpectreT Not all christians are religious, and not all religions are christians. Just something I like to keep in mind, the two terms are not the same. Keep on Keeping on SpectreT

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Um.
I'm sorry, just I have a bit of a problem taking someone seriously when they make up a word like 'sheeple' and use it in their serious essay.

Though it did give me a chuckle.

Some times it is easier to make up a simple word for the use I need than to find a fancy hoity toity word to fill the need that everyone will go WTF??? when they see it.

Glad I could do something for you Never.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

And yes, Todd I am glad you ar posting as you are most qualified to visit both sides of the fence.

Thanks, hon.

Thank you MissTaken

 

[Sandia]

Todd,
I'm curious, are you a non-religious fundamentalist?

I been arguing with myself and pastors for a long time since I gave up religion, and took up my own cross of sorts. I don't come from a christian or religious background, in fact a militant athiest one. So I know a lot about context and bashing and "contradictions"

Have you read Eccl.? (It's my favorite book.)

Do you believe the words of the Bible are true/inspired?

All of them? Some of them?

I guess I'm not sure where you're coming from..?

For me, I am (in truth) agnostic. That just means I still have hope.

But I've come away from my own study of the Bible with a pretty harsh assessment: (no offense) I have a hard time seeing how someone can read the O.T. thoughtfully and honestly without coming away with some pretty significant doubts about it's authenticity (truthfulness) and the nature of the "God" that's described therein.

Sandia.

 

[Todd-'o'-Vision]

Todd,
I'm curious, are you a non-religious fundamentalist?

Yes, I guess thats what one could call me, as I don't conform really to any set paramenters or guidelines of a religion. I prefer to allow the Bible tell me what the Bible is trying to say. there is a lot of men and women who like to make the bible say what they want it to say.

The way I like to say it for myself is I like to use the bible for a guidebook. I try to study it and read it with an open mind. When I find something that doesn't mesh with what I want to believe, I don't simply ignore it or try to downplay it or change it to something I am more willing to accept. I personally try to see how that passage sits with the rest of the Scripture, and then see what I have to do to change me. Does that make sense?

Have you read Eccl.? (It's my favorite book.)

Oh yes, it is one of my favorites, my first favorite is Song of Solomon, It has everything from BDSM, to oral, anal, doggystyle, misionary, etc. its classic erotica disguised under a viel or love

Do you believe the words of the Bible are true/inspired?

Yes I do, 2 Timothy 3:16{major textstual idea for me} says it is and other various texts and passages conquour{sp?} with that {supportive passages}.

All of them? Some of them?

To me it has to be all or nothing. If I say that is only some then that leaves it purely to my human finite subjective mind to decide what is inspired and what is not inspired. To me that becomes a very scary thought, because what if in my fallibility i don't deem something inspried that is and i deem something that is not?

On a side not I grew up for 18 years an athiest, to me it was all myth, rubbish and folklore.

I guess I'm not sure where you're coming from..?

That is quite alright I am never sure where I am coming from either

For me, I am (in truth) agnostic. That just means I still have hope.

Agnostic of there is no hope for you.

Just kidding

I am sure you heard the joke about the dyslexic and the agnostic?

She layed awake at night wondering if there was a dog

Sorry I thought it funny.

But I've come away from my own study of the Bible with a pretty harsh assessment: (no offense) I have a hard time seeing how someone can read the O.T. thoughtfully and honestly without coming away with some pretty significant doubts about it's authenticity (truthfulness) and the nature of the "God" that's described therein.

I know what you mean here there was many a night when I stayed up thinking my way through asking myself how a God of love and the God of the Old Testament could possibly co-exist or even be one in the same.

But then, call me wacky, I had an insight that I was tring to bind an infinite God within the confines of what my finite mind would or was willing to understand.

When that happened , call me wacky once more if you like, and I came to that realization a whole new picture of the loving God and old testament God merged together into one harmonious picture.

I was shocked, astounded, confused, bewildered and much more all in one moment. It was like an ephany{sp?} happened and my mind was being opened to a whole different level of myself and understanding. Some of my friends says that was just my decent into insanity, I don't really know, I don't really understand, I can't really explain with adequate verbage. I wish I could.

Sandia.

Huggs

Todd

 

[cymbidia]

Todd?
I like you.

For me, I am (in truth) agnostic. That just means I still have hope.

I style myself agnostic, too, Sandia, but it's only because i have no other box to check that fits in any better manner.

To me, for me, being agnostic just means that i don't know what happens after a person dies. I do the best i can to be good and live with dignity and honesty here and now. Any afterlife i have coming my way, or another life, or eternal damnation cuz i'm not a [fill in your choice of the one true religion here] will have to wait until i'm actually dead to make itself known to me.

 

[Harbinger]

Todd

Good stuff, and I feel like I know a little more about you than before, too. I liked that.

 

[SpectreT]

The Armchair Philosopher

is at it again. Brain just grabbed a question, which migh be better left to another thread for fear of hijacking, but I'll post it here.

How many of us (BDSM'ers, and the people who have feelings, are lurking and learning, y'know, us?) are spiritual?

How many of us are religious?

I know Monster666 had a thread not too long ago on this.

I'll go find it and bump it.

 

[Sandia]

When I find something that doesn't mesh with what I want to believe, I don't simply ignore it or try to downplay it or change it to something I am more willing to accept.

...

To me it has to be all or nothing. If I say that is only some then that leaves it purely to my human finite subjective mind to decide what is inspired and what is not inspired. To me that becomes a very scary thought, because what if in my fallibility i don't deem something inspried that is and i deem something that is not?

...


But then, call me wacky, I had an insight that I was tring to bind an infinite God within the confines of what my finite mind would or was willing to understand.


Todd

God must be, I think, beyond the realm of human understanding. Nothing else makes sense. It would be a pretty lame God that I was able to comprehend. Or understand.

Of course that doesn't mean God exists, merely that God cannot be disproved. That's the other side of being agnostic.

I respect your not being willing to pick and choose. In that way we're similar. I'm not willing to do it either.

I am, however, willing to wait and hope for the best. One more quote, from my favorite book:

Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in the grave, where you are going.

and one more:

Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. (sigh)

Wear me out, God. I am ready.

 

[Sandia]

Oh, and Spectre? I'd be happy to answer your question here, except of course, I already have.

 

[cymbidia]

How many of us (BDSM'ers, and the people who have feelings, are lurking and learning, y'know, us?) are spiritual?

How many of us are religious?

I've got a deep and wide philosophical bent which has always felt to me to be a spiritual in nature in my life. I'm not, however, religious at all (if by "religious" you mean "one who adheres to a formalized set of religious beliefs").

Whatever your hand finds to do, do with your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in the grave, where you are going.[/COLOR]

Eccl. 9.10; yes, i had to look it up. I thought the words beautiful and wondered what poet wrote them.

 

[MotorCitySam]

Re: The Armchair Philosopher

is at it again. Brain just grabbed a question, which migh be better left to another thread for fear of hijacking, but I'll post it here.

How many of us (BDSM'ers, and the people who have feelings, are lurking and learning, y'know, us?) are spiritual?

How many of us are religious?

I know Monster666 had a thread not too long ago on this.

I'll go find it and bump it.

I consider myself to be a spiritual man, because I have an abiding faith that we have a creator who put us here for a good purpose. But I do not consider myself religious, because I think it foolish to make claims to understand that great purpose. The Lord has shown us the path to righteousness so many times, in so many ways, through Jesus, through Mohammed, through the Buddha, and even through the great minds of science, that I believe his charge to us is clear. Love thy neighbor. All the rest is man's embroidery. It may be beautiful, it may give great comfort, but it is a creation of man, not God.
Just my opinion, I mean no offense to anyone else's view.