Feeders - a new form of 24/7 bondage?

[redelicious]

It makes me feel very good when I see things like what red has written - that some men find it beautiful. That I am beautiful.

You go, girl!

 

[redelicious]

No, you've missed my point which was that this bunch of pots has a habit of calling kettles black.

Of all groups, this one should have a better understanding of unusual relationships & needs. Almost everyone on the planet has some self esteem issues & insecurities. Many could be seen & judged by others as being exploited & abused in their choice of lifestyle, including myself as a sub. This particular subject was just an example.

See, I think this board sometimes is too careful to accept behavior which might indeed be abusive. We are all keenly aware of how the mainstream sees *the lifestyle* and as a result people err on the side of not being judgmental (IMHO). Like it or not, many of the things we engage in can be abusive in the wrong situation. Yes, it's a fine line. Most of the time I don't know where that line is but it's a mistake to think it doesn't exist.
I think it's a worse mistake to create a situation where people don't feel they can come out and say, "hey, I think this is wrong." We need dialogue and differing opinions to stay sane, and to continue to learn and grow.

 

[s'lara]

There was a similar disagreement on the bestiality thread.

If we are not here to offer views that are different and challenging, why then do we bother to interact with one another in this forum?

There is no labeling and finger pointing that i've seen in this thread. What i have seen is clear expression of what this topic means to each individual. Not judgment, but obvious concern. i think it dangerous and unrealistic to blindly embrace any lifestyle in the interest of "true acceptance" if that means ignoring the possibility of harm ... physical/mental/emotional.

i find this topic disturbing because of the many health issues that can arise in body modification of this type. i also have the same concerns regarding extreme body modification where the flesh is transfigured to such a degree that infection can become chronic.

To have concerns is not to cast the first stone. We can welcome and learn from different types of practices, whether they be BDSM related or not. However, i will not withhold my opinion regarding an activity that i personally feel is harmful or life-threatening. Live and let live? Yeah, sure ... to a degree. While i am not exactly looking to convert anyone from their chosen way of living, i will express my thoughts if i feel there is a potential for injury. If that is a judgment ... so be it. If there is a need to be a part of a community that is without indivduality and of a borg mentality, count me out. There is much interest in hearing the thoughts of others and the more diverse the better.

lara

 

[incubus'_sub]

Good, these are my thoughts and they do diverge from yours it seems.

To me it seems that you could never gain 800lbs without an element of consent. The gaining of this weight would take ages, plenty of time to get out if the relationship does not make you happy in some way. We are talking humans here, with their own brains & the ability to make their own decisions, however weird they may seem to most. Yes, it's damaging to their health, but we have to make our own decisions about the risks we choose to take and stop blaming others. The feeders & gainers are drawn together in some way, just as the rest of us find our partners in kink or whatever it is that attracts us to certain people.

You are free to express your concern. That's wonderful. But this discussion has been mostly about whether these people are being abused or not. If you think that they are, what are you going to do about it except write about your outrage here. Call in the authorities about the hugely fat woman next door? She may be perfectly happy the way she is.
Do you wish your outraged neighbour to call in the police next time she hears you scream. Will they find you tied up, gagged, with whip marks all over your back ??? Will they believe you when you say how much you enjoyed this abuse?

Comment, talk about issues, go for it, but be careful with labels of abuse & sick minds. these are in the eyes & minds of the beholder and we should all know that.

 

[catalina_francisco]

No, you've missed my point which was that this bunch of pots has a habit of calling kettles black.

Of all groups, this one should have a better understanding of unusual relationships & needs. Almost everyone on the planet has some self esteem issues & insecurities. Many could be seen & judged by others as being exploited & abused in their choice of lifestyle, including myself as a sub. This particular subject was just an example.

You know you don't have to hang here if you don't like it. From your first posting some months back you have mostly offered negative judgements yourself, which considering who you say you belong to, surprises me as he was an intelligent and respected member of the board who seemed to enjoy discussion without seeing it as judgemental.

There was no judgement made, (laughable considering I am no mini myself and have a Master who does not want a skin and biones woman) and if you too had seen the documentary, you would have witnessed these women acknowledging it was abusive in that it played on their vulnerabilities and weaknesses to feed not what I saw as an outright fetish of these men, but a gravy train at someone elses expense health and emotion wise. You know it was real interesting how these men fed their women up big and then set out giving up work and selling nude photos and videos of them despite some of the women not feeling completely comfortable with it, but unfortunately by then in no position to object as they were completely dependent on them.

Maybe you should look outside your judgemental box and get some facts before trying to impose your judgements and self appointed ban on discussions on the board of which astoundingly, as unpleasant as you find it, and as bad as you say discussions are, you continue to read and comment on. Maybe we are not the ones with the problem about people being oversized as none of us have been ludicrous enough to suggest calling the authorities to report such women. Oh, and I think a good dose of friendliness and positiveness would go a long way, and perhaps giving to the community, not continually judging and attacking. Are you so pure yourself? I doubt it.

Catalina

 

[incubus'_sub]

I'm not negative in any way, shape or form. My opinions & views simply differ from yours quite often & very occasionally I feel the need to express it.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm not negative in any way, shape or form. My opinions & views simply differ from yours quite often & very occasionally I feel the need to express it.

Well I would agree on our opinions and views differing as I for one would never consider suggesting to an inexperienced bondage novice looking for tips to disregard posters advice about using safe words because they might put off his girlfriend who waa the one wanting to try bondage with him. Though we no longer use safe words, for someone at that level, who clearly has no idea of her limits or possible triggers, not using them would seem highly risky to me. But of course this is just IMHO and to each their own and as you said, most posters on this board take their B & D seriously.

As to the not negative, I guess it just seems that way IMO as your first post and others such as in this thread have labeled, put down, and openly judged the other board members while seemingly putting yourself on a pedestal of righteousness....something you accuse others of repeatedly. That to me is a fairly good indication of who you are when your total post count is 8, what else do we have to go by? Perhaps we will learn there is a less judgemental, friendlier side to you at some future point.

Catalina

 

[Desdemona]

You are free to express your concern. That's wonderful. But this discussion has been mostly about whether these people are being abused or not. If you think that they are, what are you going to do about it except write about your outrage here. Call in the authorities about the hugely fat woman next door? She may be perfectly happy the way she is.
Do you wish your outraged neighbour to call in the police next time she hears you scream. Will they find you tied up, gagged, with whip marks all over your back ??? Will they believe you when you say how much you enjoyed this abuse?

Comment, talk about issues, go for it, but be careful with labels of abuse & sick minds. these are in the eyes & minds of the beholder and we should all know that.

I disagree.

I have worked with quite a number of supersized morbidly obese patients (they weigh in excess of 500 lbs) over the past 20 years. Without exception, these people were unhappy about their weight. I liken it to alcoholism. There is a huge element of addiction and compulsion to this level of overeating. Most of them suffer from some form of psychological pathology.

Once they reach the point of not being able to get their own food, the relationship dynamics become pretty clear. There is at least one person in the patient's life who feeds them in the quantity they require to maintain or gain weight. The feeder is certainly playing into the disease process, even if they aren't going to the extremes described in the documentary Catalina watched. And in fact, many of these people suffer from significant clinical malnutrition in spite of being fed massive quantities of food. This is because they are eating junk food with empty calories rather than food items that supply necessary nutrients.

I have seen some of these caretakers use appalling levels of emotional manipulation to keep these folks helpless, dependant and eating large quantities of food. After the caretaker leaves the room, when I ask the patient how they feel about all this, they generally express a wish that things were different and that they had some way to escape the situation. And, I gotta say, when someone uses emotional manipulation to keep another person in this sort of situation, that qualifies as abuse. When the obese person asks for help to get out of their situation so that they can take measures to lose weight, it sure sets off alarm bells in my head.

I'm not going to sit around and say there's something wrong with being attracted to large people. Trust me. Like Catalina, I'm not a small woman and I belong to a man who likes a woman with meat on her bones. I also try hard not to engage in the old "my kink is better than your kink" stuff. But, a non consensual situation is not D/s. Purposeful manipulation of someone's psychological pathology negates consent.

In most of the D/s literature, we talk about the need for a strong healthy sub; inherent in that is psychological health. It means that the sub is able to give or retract consent for his/her situation and to set limits or accept the limits of the dominant partner with full knowledge/understanding of the risks and benefits of their actions. It means that the sub/slave wants to be in this situation. That is fundamentally different than being dependant on another for survival, unhappy with the circumstances, and unable to escape. Again, this is not D/s.

No, I don't call the police when I am given reason to suspect abuse. But I do get adult protective services involved in these cases because of the lack of consent. Unfortunately, the damage is already done alot of the time and instead of seeing this person get well, I watch them die. Generally, it's not a comfortable death where they just slip off to heaven in the night.

It's not an academic discussion for me. It's a heartbreaking reality.

 

[s'lara]

Good, these are my thoughts and they do diverge from yours it seems.

To me it seems that you could never gain 800lbs without an element of consent. The gaining of this weight would take ages, plenty of time to get out if the relationship does not make you happy in some way. We are talking humans here, with their own brains & the ability to make their own decisions, however weird they may seem to most. Yes, it's damaging to their health, but we have to make our own decisions about the risks we choose to take and stop blaming others. The feeders & gainers are drawn together in some way, just as the rest of us find our partners in kink or whatever it is that attracts us to certain people.

You are free to express your concern. That's wonderful. But this discussion has been mostly about whether these people are being abused or not. If you think that they are, what are you going to do about it except write about your outrage here. Call in the authorities about the hugely fat woman next door? She may be perfectly happy the way she is.
Do you wish your outraged neighbour to call in the police next time she hears you scream. Will they find you tied up, gagged, with whip marks all over your back ??? Will they believe you when you say how much you enjoyed this abuse?

Comment, talk about issues, go for it, but be careful with labels of abuse & sick minds. these are in the eyes & minds of the beholder and we should all know that.

You are making assumptions without facts. No one can say conclusively that feeders and gainers engage in a healthy, happy relationship and that there isn't a possibilty of emotional and mental instability. That said, no one can say that these individuals aren't blissfully content and are moderately engaging this activity with careful monitoring of the gainers health.

i certainly don't know if women who endure this kind of body modification are happy or not. i have not offered any thoughts in this regard. However, i am sure i was clear in my concern regarding their health which would clearly be at risk. As to the mental health of the "inducer" of this kind of obesity, i believe it satisfies something inside of them and while we should all be accepting in anothers kink, i think deliberately placing someone in a position to risk their health to a point of death is not quite what i would call a healthy mental state. Lets face it, the women's health will deteriorate to the point of serious medical ailments if not eventual death. As for your thoughts that the someone will call the authorities ... well, that's a touch dramatic. The expression of opinion does not automatically extend into histrionics and acts of whim.

Sure there is the issue of consent (Pure has an interesting thread on this subject in regard to the Miewes act of cannabalism) and i agree that if the women involved relent and allow the feeder to push them to extreme obesity, they should be allowed to live as they see fit. The choice is theirs and while i may not share in their predilection, if they (feeders/gainers) are completely informed of the risks, are entering into the relationship with a clear mindset and healthy emotional state ... have it and good luck i say.

lara

 

[redelicious]

Now back to our regularly scheduled programing...

So I told hubby about this thread and asked his opinion. Again, he is not a feeder in the extreme sense that this thread is really addressing. However, I thought what he had to say might be of some interest.

He doesn't know why he enjoys larger women, he just does. At one time he was disgusted with himself for liking something so far out of the mainstream, but he has come to accept his preferences. He DOES feel badly that he wants something for me that I don't want for myself. I asked him if this was related to possible health issues for me, but I got the feeling this was really secondary to the idea that *I* am not comfortable with it.

I mentioned to him that I posted that he wasn't really into having the control to modify my body. He agreed, but said that if I wanted to be 300 lbs he would help me get there. So I asked him "what about 800 lbs?" He paused before answering, then said if it were easily reversable he would want to try that too. He says logically he knows it's not good for me, but it is in fact something he fantasizes about.

I think it is interesting that the health issues were not really a primary concern for my husband. I really feel that his lack of desire to be a feeder in the truest sense has more to do with his respect of my wishes more so then an need to do what is best for me. Honestly, I think his desire for my being heavier outways his common sense in moments of passion. I don't know how this might relate to feeders, except that perhaps they are so consumed by their fetish that they flat out ignore possible harm to their partners.

So, with that in mind it really would be different from bondage in a SSC setting.

I don't know if my conversation with hubby provided any insight. It did however result in me getting laid.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Yes it is very interesting and more along the lines of what I perceived these situations to probably be, neither BDSM or abuse but more of an unusual desire.

None of us can help what turns us on. The really hard part is either denying that attraction or being able to find a matching & consenting partner. I'm not talking about underage & universally illegal tastes here for the record.

 

[Limbhugger]

No incubus_sub, I do think you missed the point. As Skyinblue said, the topic of the thread was FORCED feeding. That is to say another person intentionally preying on the mental weakness of another.

How you manage to make a leap from a thread about what is in essence preditory behavior to projecting that we have imposed labels is beyond me.

Do we want to be judged for our activities and way of life? No. But the difference is we are people who enter into our commitments willingly. So to do we recognize limits. We seek what makes us better people. We want to find that curious link to the functioning world.

Allowing yourself to be abused without positive reward is simply that; abuse. And those who perform it are lacking in their own sense. Are we to believe that a man who leaves nothing but bacon fat for a woman to eat is somehow a strong man?

Step down off your pedistal incubus and think about what this thread was about. I can assure you that Catalina is the last person to cast stones or assign labels.

 

[redelicious]

Yes it is very interesting and more along the lines of what I perceived these situations to probably be, neither BDSM or abuse but more of an unusual desire.

I agree, it's not BDSM by itself. But abuse? Hmmm...

Let's say for a moment it does fall under the umbrella of BDSM. Now let's examine it using SSC. Is it consentual? Let's argue that it is and ignore any kind of manipulation that could be going on. Is it sane? I don't think so, but I certainly don't have all the answers.

Is it safe? No. Now, it's true many of the activities Dom/mes and subs engage in don't appear to be safe by the casual observer. In fact, we know (or hope) that the participants have done their homework and are taking great pains to make sure that no lasting harm is done. Feeders can't take these same precautions because there are none.

So, if it clearly isn't safe by any standards how can the activity be justified, even if it is consentual?

*playing devil's advocate*

 

[Kajira Callista]

I agree, it's not BDSM by itself. But abuse? Hmmm...

Let's say for a moment it does fall under the umbrella of BDSM. Now let's examine it using SSC. Is it consentual? Let's argue that it is and ignore any kind of manipulation that could be going on. Is it sane? I don't think so, but I certainly don't have all the answers.

Is it safe? No. Now, it's true many of the activities Dom/mes and subs engage in don't appear to be safe by the casual observer. In fact, we know (or hope) that the participants have done their homework and are taking great pains to make sure that no lasting harm is done. Feeders can't take these same precautions because there are none.

So, if it clearly isn't safe by any standards how can the activity be justified, even if it is consentual?

*playing devil's advocate*

I have read thi thread twice trying to figure out what i really thought of all this....i must say at first i was slightly sickened by the thought of being forced to eat bacon fat btw. But when i read it again a few things popped into my head. One was, did these women consent to this treatment before it started and maybe now decided it wasnt such a good idea? Next is... could the tv program be turning it around to make it look like the women are abused in sorta the same way they do when it comes to BDSM. I am guessing there are women who like this to be done to them by men who have this desire...maybe the men in the program were what we would call "predators"....i dunno. Just a few things to think about i guess.

 

[catalina_francisco]

KC, some of the women agreed to it in the beginning, because as they said, for the first time someone appreciated them for being big to start with and they were frightened to displease and lose that. That is not consent to me when someone agrees out of fear. As I also said in a couple of posts, one of the women spoke of how she was locked in the house and forced to feed what was given her with nothing helathy being in the house...that or starve to death eventually, wich also does not seem consent to me. She eventually was rescued by Police.

I don't believe the program was doctored or manipulated to make it look abusive...most of it consisted of women speaking for themselves about themselves. I think when it gets to the point of men financially living off these women who can no longer function, not even get out of bed and covered in bed sores, it cannot be compared to BDSM enthusiasts who follow a code of SSC and hopefully inform themselves before hand. As Redelicious said, we can do our best to ensure safe play....being fed to a degree where death is the certain outcome unless reversed is not able to be done in any way which is safe. IMHO I think it comes down to another area where there seems to be a clear line between BDSM and abuse.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

This might be two interesting articles to read.

http://www.rotunda.com/people/yohannon/no_feeders.html
http://www.rotunda.com/people/yohannon/feeder_response.html

Francisco.

 

[Kajira Callista]

KC, some of the women agreed to it in the beginning, because as they said, for the first time someone appreciated them for being big to start with and they were frightened to displease and lose that. That is not consent to me when someone agrees out of fear. As I also said in a couple of posts, one of the women spoke of how she was locked in the house and forced to feed what was given her with nothing helathy being in the house...that or starve to death eventually, wich also does not seem consent to me. She eventually was rescued by Police.

I don't believe the program was doctored or manipulated to make it look abusive...most of it consisted of women speaking for themselves about themselves. I think when it gets to the point of men financially living off these women who can no longer function, not even get out of bed and covered in bed sores, it cannot be compared to BDSM enthusiasts who follow a code of SSC and hopefully inform themselves before hand. As Redelicious said, we can do our best to ensure safe play....being fed to a degree where death is the certain outcome unless reversed is not able to be done in any way which is safe. IMHO I think it comes down to another area where there seems to be a clear line between BDSM and abuse.

Catalina

Thanks catalina...i thought maybe knowing all that would help me draw a conclusion in my own mind about all this. Half of me says OMG that is totally horible and half says how do i know they arent actually enjoying (even the emotional anguish) all of it. Guess i'll stay neutral and keep reading. *shrugs*

 

[Mr Blonde]

BUMP

This topic is a good running partner for my BDSM/obesity thread.

Any more comments about the "feeding" phenomenon?

 

[esclave_PP]

I don't have more info, but still find this absolutely fascinating. Catalina as usual very interesting articles. Do you have more info?

 

[gothgodess]

Agreed. But they didn't get to be 821lbs overnight.

All I can think is these women trust their partners compleatly and it starts small, an extra treat seconds at dinner. These women have no confidance and are probably too scared to disobey, Its the same with any abuse. People ask the same questions when a partner is repeatdly put in hospital through violence. Why did they let it happen. The answer is simple the abuse is mental long before its physical. As for the is this abuse or bondage what would the answer be if these men were staving their partners?

its scary that the lines can be crossed so easily by some people.

 

[Never]

I find it distasteful.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hmmm, well this documentary is being repeated tonight and because we were too lazy to change it once again I am going through the disbelief these women will allow the men in their lives to do this to them. 821lb and bedridden is just never going to be healthy...and this guy says areas of her skin are an inch thick and resembling elephant skin which he spends about 2 hours a day massaging and doctoring her bedsores etc. As one woman who has taken her life back says, her partner used it to make sure he knew she would always be waiting at home for him so he didn't have to worry about her cheating on him, and he would even sneak things into her food to increase the weight gain without her knowing. This is definately for some a form of B & D.

Catalina

 

[shy slave]

I wonder if it the same programme they showed on television here a few years ago.
It was called 'Fat Girls and Feeders'

It was a completely new phenomena to me.

Although it is some time since I have seen the programme I seem to recall they showed several sides of the issue. Interviewing the girls and the men. As I recall (and bearing in mind I had never head of BDSM then either) it appeared many of the women had had self-esteem issues which were improved by the feeling of being loved and cared for by the man they were involved with.
One man spoke so caringly of how he loved to use one of her folds of skin as a pillow to go to sleep each night.
It is not my kink, and I do think they physical health issues cannot be ignored, but from an emotional point of view in some couples this seemed healthy and lovely.

There was a programme on TV here a few nights ago called 'Britains Fattest Man' he is 50 stone (700 lbs) and has a girlfriend. She is obese but not at his level of obesity.
He was a local celebrity in his home city, going to football matches and being driven around by his brother. He goes to the pub each evening and most nights drinks around 25 pints of beer, if his team wins that moved up to 40 pints. At the indian restaurant it was normal for him to order everything on the menu and still feel hungry, yet he did not have a genetic condition for example Prader Willi which would make me feel constantly hungry.

His girlfriend cooks for him and cares for all hiss personal needs including cooking for him. His legs broke out in sores, the skin was blackened and dying and his feet looked terrible. She even had names for parts of the skin on his leg as they looked like particular shapes.
It occurred to me that she encouraged his continual obesity, and could perhaps be seen as a female feeder (which I have never heard of before). His brother seemed concerned about his health and he made it obvious that he disagreed with the way his brother was. Again this seemed to be a self-confidence issue.

As he was, he was a star. Everyone knew and wanted to know him. He had a television programme made about him and generally he is famous simply because he eats and drinks too much. His girl friend is a part of that. The mountain food she cooked for him and they way he ate it made me feel sick, but they both seemed so proud of each other. She did not seem to be very bright (but TV editing may have had alot to do with that), so if he lost weight their whole lives change. They are suddenly ordinary and have to manage each day without people really being interested in them.

The TV company showed him a picture of how he would look if he weighed 14 stone (196 lbs), he said he could see how much healthier that would be, but he did not seem truly interested in losing weight.

He was clearly told he would die if he continued, but he has been told that before and isn't dead yet; so he continues and she continues to support him in it.

Fame being more important than health.

With all this in mind, has anyone else seen anything that makes them think that there are female feeders about? The few BBW/BBB/porn sites I have come across or posts & threads I have seen seem to have men looking for BBW/BBB women, not the other way around.

 

[graceanne]

It seems to me that this kind of bondage would be the same as . . . deliberatly breaking your SO's back so that they're completely dependant on you and can't leave the house. It's sad, and I agree with catalina, it's abuse.

 

[Kailey_86]

i think that anything can be called kinky and nothing is too strange. It is fine if both parties are happy with what they are doing.

If everything is consensual, it isn't abuse. i've been researching puppy play and i read about someone who had his pelvis and legs broken so that his posture would be more like a dogs. This was extreme but consensual. Both parties were happy in the end. i think that it is the responsibility of both to know the health risks though.

It may be that the guy is insecure but i still think that everything is fine and dandy if everyone is happy. Do what you like, like what you do...that's what i always say.