Etoile, a clarification please.

[Queersetti]

In light of your locking of Glam's Johnny Mayberry thread, I would like to ask you to clarify your position on personal attacks.

Specifically, I would like to ask you if you are opposed to any posts which single out posters who have made anti-gay comments on Lit. If, for example, one were to start a thread that informed new posters here of the anti-gay position of specific GB posters, would you lock that thread, or allow it?

To be claear, I am not referring to Johnny Mayberry in a negative way, I willingly accept his apology for his remarks My question concerns the issue in general.

 

[sexy-girl]

etoile has a messy box


anotherwords your inbox was full when i tried to pm you


on this issue though i'd prefer people can say whatever they want on these boards as long as its not obvious trolling


there are private gay boards on the net this one is public and i think should reflect that with the type of moderation it gets

 

[Etoile]

Thanks for asking, Queersetti - I don't mind clarifying my position.

If someone wanted to start a thread warning that an individual might have negative responses, I wouldn't immediately close it down. My concern is with attacks. It seems likely that such a thread would dissolve into flaming of that individual, and that's what's not okay with me.

Yes, sexy-girl, people can say whatever they want as long as it's not obvious trolling or direct abuse. I perceived glamorilla's thread about Johnny Mayberry to be directly abusive, and JM even said in that thread that he felt attacked.

I'd like to note that just because somebody claims they feel attacked doesn't mean I'll close a thread. If somebody PMs me about a thread, I will then take a look at it, but if they're just whining and not actually being harrassed, I won't take any action on the thread.

Does that make it any clearer? I suspect I've just muddied the waters further! http://www.amanita.net/images/smilies/look-away.gif

 

[Queersetti]

Thank you for the clarification, Etoile.

It seems fair to me that if we are going to disallow gay bashing threads here, we ought to be willing to hold ourselves to a higher standard of conduct ourselves.

 

[glamorilla]

i actually meant for the thread to be a joke~a few minutes after i posted it i saw how vicsous it was. i was actually going to pm you (etoille) to ask you to just remove it to post something a little funnier and more vague (it would have just been the title "Johnny" with the lyrics to the josie cotton song as the first post) but then i figured what the hell~johnny's a big boy.

I am curious why you'd lock that thread but let his initial thread (and others posted here that glorify violence against the glb&t community) stand.

 

[Etoile]

I am curious why you'd lock that thread but let his initial thread (and others posted here that glorify violence against the glb&t community) stand.

I thought that was very clear. His thread was about a group of people, not anyone specific. Your thread was a personal attack. Do you not see the difference regarding what's acceptable?

If at any time you see a thread or post that you feel should be looked at by a moderator, please use the "Report this post" feature and I'll be happy to take a look at it.

 

[prettygrneyes]

etoile has a messy box


anotherwords your inbox was full when i tried to pm you


on this issue though i'd prefer people can say whatever they want on these boards as long as its not obvious trolling


there are private gay boards on the net this one is public and i think should reflect that with the type of moderation it gets

hmmm private gay boards??where???

 

[MaddyBaby]

The whole closing of threads is a miff to me anyway.

I just read over Glamorilla's thread, and not that I am all for personal attacks, but I have seen much much worse on the other boards. Some have happened to me personally.

Now, not that I am trying to light things up again with this Johnny guy, but in my opinion, some of the things he said were worse than what Glam was saying. It was more real. I don't know if I am making any sense.... You gotta understand a gay man's humor. I don't know if it's just the gay men I know, or hang around... but I got Glam's joke.

Basically, I just want to say this:

When you claim to be "liberal", why place pressure on people to change how they are? If you are clearly unwelcome with your opinion, why persist on pushing on with it, towards people that have no agreement with what you are saying? If you are uncomfortable with the environment you are in, leave. It's as simple as that. Do I think he deserved what Glam said? I took it as a joke... so should have he. Do I think it was bad enough to close the thread over? No. I think if a person is that oversensitive, they should find another board to post on. *shrug* Maybe I am being a bitch here, but I've been called a lot worse on these threads, and no one has closed any threads because I was hurt. Ah well. What is free speech anyway?

 

[Angel]

Can someone please point me to the actual "Attack" in question please, I can't find it.

 

[Etoile]

Can someone please point me to the actual "Attack" in question please, I can't find it.

That would be this thread. If you already knew that and were just making a statement that you don't perceive it as an attack - well, I've looked up the URL for nothing. If you didn't know, then there it is.

 

[Queersetti]

The whole closing of threads is a miff to me anyway.

I just read over Glamorilla's thread, and not that I am all for personal attacks, but I have seen much much worse on the other boards. Some have happened to me personally.

Now, not that I am trying to light things up again with this Johnny guy, but in my opinion, some of the things he said were worse than what Glam was saying. It was more real. I don't know if I am making any sense.... You gotta understand a gay man's humor. I don't know if it's just the gay men I know, or hang around... but I got Glam's joke.

Basically, I just want to say this:

When you claim to be "liberal", why place pressure on people to change how they are? If you are clearly unwelcome with your opinion, why persist on pushing on with it, towards people that have no agreement with what you are saying? If you are uncomfortable with the environment you are in, leave. It's as simple as that. Do I think he deserved what Glam said? I took it as a joke... so should have he. Do I think it was bad enough to close the thread over? No. I think if a person is that oversensitive, they should find another board to post on. *shrug* Maybe I am being a bitch here, but I've been called a lot worse on these threads, and no one has closed any threads because I was hurt. Ah well. What is free speech anyway?

I think that it comes down to what sort of a forum we want to have.

We can have a free speech, anything goes forum, and let the fur fly, or we can have a moderated forum that protects the sensibilities of the posters, who are, after all, a minority on this site, and may far being overwhelmed and intimidated in an unmoderated setting.

I can see the merits and the drawbacks to either approach.

Personally, I would prefer a completely free area, but that is not what was decided here. And I recognize that, as someone who has been comfortable in my gay identity for many years, is out to my family and friends, and runs no risk of professional of economic retribution, my feelings of safety may be a luxury that not every poster enjoys.

Since this was set up as a moderated area, with particular rules in regard to personal attacks, when I post here, I accept that those are the rules. The only question is to whether or nor they are applied fairly.

I believe Etoile makes a very sincere effort to be fair, but of course, she is human and can make decisions we feel are mistakes. It should also be noted that a grouping as broad as "GLBT" contains many subgroups with often widely differing standards and approaches. As in your example, I can imagine that humor that seems perfectly acceptable to gay men might seem transgressive to a bi woman, and I am sure there are other , similar differences among us.

The bottom line is that the decision was made to maintain certain standards of conduct, for the benefit of the GLBT posters. Those standards have to apply within the group as well, or they are meaningless.

I hope that Etoile will continue to keep a light hand on the reins, but I recognize that this isn't like the GB, and that there is a reason for that, even if we don't all agree with it.

 

[Etoile]

The whole closing of threads is a miff to me anyway.

I am just asking for clarification here - do you feel that a moderator's only purpose is to move personals requests to Personals, and to handle underage posters?

I just read over Glamorilla's thread, and not that I am all for personal attacks, but I have seen much much worse on the other boards. Some have happened to me personally.

I've seen worse too, here at Lit and also elsewhere. I haven't been singled out for abuse here, but I've gotten my fair share of it in other online communities. Just because it happens all over the internet doesn't make it okay.

Now, not that I am trying to light things up again with this Johnny guy, but in my opinion, some of the things he said were worse than what Glam was saying. It was more real. I don't know if I am making any sense.... You gotta understand a gay man's humor. I don't know if it's just the gay men I know, or hang around... but I got Glam's joke.

Realism has nothing to do with it. How do you know, really know for 100% certain, that Johnny isn't joking about his feelings too? My point, as I said in the last message in that thread, was that Johnny was speaking in general while that thread was focused on an individual.

Basically, I just want to say this:

When you claim to be "liberal", why place pressure on people to change how they are? If you are clearly unwelcome with your opinion, why persist on pushing on with it, towards people that have no agreement with what you are saying? If you are uncomfortable with the environment you are in, leave. It's as simple as that. Do I think he deserved what Glam said? I took it as a joke... so should have he. Do I think it was bad enough to close the thread over? No. I think if a person is that oversensitive, they should find another board to post on. *shrug* Maybe I am being a bitch here, but I've been called a lot worse on these threads, and no one has closed any threads because I was hurt. Ah well. What is free speech anyway?

I'm assuming you're referring to Johnny with your first few sentences there. Nobody has said he's uncomfortable with the environment he's in, and nobody has forced us to listen to him either. I maintain that Johnny has as much right to his opinion as everyone else here, even if nobody agrees with him. Nobody said Johnny was oversensitive - I am the one who decided to close the thread. Nobody sent me any PMs asking me to do it. Glam has said he meant the thread to be a joke, but it turned into personal attacks. I was not closing the thread because Glam started it, but rather because of the whole content of the thread. As for free speech - of course I support free speech. But the line between free speech and hate speech is very fine.

I don't think you're being a bitch, Maddy - you make valid points. But I don't think I'm being a tightass, either. My decision stands, now and if this happens again.

 

[Etoile]

Since this was set up as a moderated area, with particular rules in regard to personal attacks, when I post here, I accept that those are the rules. The only question is to whether or nor they are applied fairly.

I believe Etoile makes a very sincere effort to be fair, but of course, she is human and can make decisions we feel are mistakes.

<snip>

The bottom line is that the decision was made to maintain certain standards of conduct, for the benefit of the GLBT posters. Those standards have to apply within the group as well, or they are meaningless.

I hope that Etoile will continue to keep a light hand on the reins, but I recognize that this isn't like the GB, and that there is a reason for that, even if we don't all agree with it.

You've pretty much hit the nail right on the head, Queersetti. Thank you.

 

[Angel]

That would be this thread. If you already knew that and were just making a statement that you don't perceive it as an attack - well, I've looked up the URL for nothing. If you didn't know, then there it is.

I was actually referring to the exact wording that was the Attack.

 

[Etoile]

I was actually referring to the exact wording that was the Attack.

It was the thread as a whole, not any individual post. JM was singled out for abuse and derision for expressing his opinions.

 

[glamorilla]

Now,now ladies...there's no need to divide ourselves. I fully understand what and why etoille did what she did and bear no ill will or malice for her doing what she felt was right.

However there is a relatively small population of gay and lesbian posters here and while this is an open and public forum it's not as anonymous or as large as some of us would like to think. Any general attack made on the gay community here is a personal attack meant to be felt by the four or five active gay men that spend thier free time in the literotica forum. While I intended the thread to be a joke I very much believe if someone is going to go as far as to dish it out one should be prepared to take it. I know Johnny from the general board and for the most part he's been rather absent from this place id say since mid winter. I was kind of surprised to see him resurface with such an attitude...but not much.

I've had much worse posted at me.

 

[ithaqua]

I got glam's joke, but must agree that the thread was in bad taste. It was tastefully closed with explanation, and I expect the conversation continued somewhere else more appropriate. Perhaps PMs.

I am comfortable with the handling of this issue.

 

[MzChrista]

So its an attack to ask somebody if they are queer?

 

[ithaqua]

So its an attack to ask somebody if they are queer?

Well, yes, it is.

Case in point:

Picture two typical high school football players facing off on the field. One says to the other, "What the Fuck, are you Queer?" The result (queue the batman POW, BAM, KABLUEY track.)

In college, the attitude was the same. There could be only one answer to the question "Are you Queer". And that was immediate and violent. (It wasn't a "Liberal" college).

Contrary wise:

If I walked up to one of my het friends and asked "What the Fuck, are you Queer?". They may well consider it a compliment.

It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[Angel]

It was the thread as a whole, not any individual post. JM was singled out for abuse and derision for expressing his opinions.

Thank you. I wasn't meaning to come off bitchy, so if I did I apologize. I honestly didn't read it as an actual attack, but then again I'm a General Board baby so anything less than what I see there doesn't seem at all "Attack-Like".. plus I'm used to Glam's posting style so I read it differently than you did as a Moderator.

You're a kickass Mod Etoile, even if I don't agree with everything you decide, you always go out of your way to be fair, and I also respect the fact that you are open to discussion on the level of moderation you give and are willing to discuss what we don't agree with.

 

[glamorilla]

personally i thought it was hysterical that johnny got all shrill,threw up his hands and started screaming "rape!".

 

[MzChrista]

Well, yes, it is.

Case in point:

Picture two typical high school football players facing off on the field. One says to the other, "What the Fuck, are you Queer?" The result (queue the batman POW, BAM, KABLUEY track.)

In college, the attitude was the same. There could be only one answer to the question "Are you Queer". And that was immediate and violent. (It wasn't a "Liberal" college).

Contrary wise:

If I walked up to one of my het friends and asked "What the Fuck, are you Queer?". They may well consider it a compliment.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Wasnt some football players said it, it was Glam. So hows it an insult for Glam to ask somebody if they are queer?

 

[ithaqua]

Wasnt some football players said it, it was Glam. So hows it an insult for Glam to ask somebody if they are queer?

An excellent point!

I would expect that a person who wanders into a gay bar should not be offended by being asked if they are queer.

The same principle could apply here. Anyone that posts in the GLBT Chatter area should not be offended by this question.

It all depends on the perspective of the person being asked.

 

[MaddyBaby]

You guys took the words right out of my mouth.

Thank you.

 

[MzChrista]

An excellent point!

I would expect that a person who wanders into a gay bar should not be offended by being asked if they are queer.

The same principle could apply here. Anyone that posts in the GLBT Chatter area should not be offended by this question.

It all depends on the perspective of the person being asked.

Right. So Glam didnt insult him, he said he was cool with it, but the thread is locked. Yep, makes a lot of sense to me.