Doesn't This Make US Look Bad?

[zipman]

You’ve/we’ve been trying to find a diplomatic solution for 2 fucking years.

Bad cop put’s a gun on the table and all of a sudden things start to happen.

You really think that Assad would even be taking about handing over his chemical weapons without the gun on the table, let alone stop using them?

Woof!

Exactly!

Putin didn't "win" anything. Not by a long shot. We didn't want to go to war over but we also couldn't allow a country to use chemical weapons.

By making the threat of war, Russia "is" now involved, we get all of Syria's chemical weapons off the table and we don't have to go to war.

The outcome is a huge win for the U.S., not for Russia. The only people claiming it is a win for Russia is the far right wing which lives by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality.

They don't see the irony of being friendlier to Russia than democrats.

Too fucking funny!

 

[Beco]

Exactly!

Putin didn't "win" anything. Not by a long shot. We didn't want to go to war over but we also couldn't allow a country to use chemical weapons.

By making the threat of war, Russia "is" now involved, we get all of Syria's chemical weapons off the table and we don't have to go to war.

The outcome is a huge win for the U.S., not for Russia. The only people claiming it is a win for Russia is the far right wing which lives by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality.

They don't see the irony of being friendlier to Russia than democrats.

Too fucking funny!

Nobody won, the war still rages. But Kerry seemed ready to drop bombs, and I for one, believed they would.

 

[Sean Renaud]

The war is going to continue on. Neither America nor Russia plans to stop that.

 

[Liar]

Yes. Looking weak and incompetent emboldens our enemies and frightens our allies.

Meh. You know what frightens allies? Looking strong and incompetent. They've had enough of the bull in the china shop.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You know I hate this line. It's like people forget that pretty much everybody was on board with Bush's wars until it became painfully obvious that Bush was either lying to us or being lied to and buying it.

They didn't forget, they know it's wrong and they know it's simply there to be a money siphon from the people to whoever the gubbmint sees fit to run/support the war. Right now with (D) running most of the show (D) interest will get the money....that's why it's suddenly ok....that's why if they pull the trigger "BUT BUSH DID IT!!" will be the mantra.

They don't even really want a war....they want a "police action" just like (R) leadership/interest....that's where the money is.

Id' be more shocked if those "lefties" weren't on board for the Syria war the same way they are on board for Afghanistan and were on board for Iraq and are on board for a potential Iran war.

They weren't on board with (R) was in control....and if (R) was doing it now they would be full on anti war hippie mode right now. But since (D) is in control and all that money is dangling in front of and tempting the fuck out of (D) leadership, there is a push for it under "It's ok because (R) did it!!!" and it's starting to show in the lemmings.....which is pretty scary and sad but w/e.

There are no doves in America. We all love our hammer and want to hit things. There are only people who want to hit things first without asking questions and those who'd rather wait until we're sure we're hitting the right thing.

I agree....totally, I'm just saying a lot of those who like to carry their nose so high and look down at others are all of a sudden trying to justify, a large bit of which is preemptive, the actions of (D) leadership for things they so nobly spat upon (R) and (R) support for doing just a few years ago....

I seriously think if O just went looney and started nuking the entire middle east.....the lemmings like rob, the other sean, merc, dan....they would all love it and nominate O for another peace price, and the RWCJ crew would condemn O for doing exactly what they have been advocating for at least 12 years, because it's O.......It would be hysterical.

Exactly what I said. Most conservatives over the years have accused Obama of being the smartest person in the history of ever. He apparently started plotting to take down America while he was in the womb for example something that not even Lex Luthor could accomplish.

See.....it's comical man. O could cure cancer and the RWJC would hate and try to character assassinate the guy all day long.

On the same note he could eat babies and fuck his daughter in the ass on the lawn of the WH every morning and the LWCJ would make excuses for him until the end of time.

It's comedy man......I don't really care b/c what I think doesn't matter to anyone, I'm simply not wealthy enough for it to matter nor am I popular enough to enter the aristocracy through sheer following, not marrying into it...so that about rules out my existence politically meaning fuck all in this nation. A vote that doesn't matter even if it were counted.

The war is going to continue on. Neither America nor Russia plans to stop that.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyd9ll7WQF1qeg5ifo1_500.gif

 

[Ishmael]

We were SO willing to start a war. It took Vladimir PUTIN to be the voice of calm and reason. It is disturbing that we did not seem willing/able to obtain a diplomatic solution. And our leader won the Nobel Peace Prize. Guess who gets it this year. This seems like a case of "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." It looks like the military is our solution to every problem.

What's with this WE shit? I know who wanted to go to war and I know who blinked. I know who fled the international stage after shooting off his mouth. Do you?

Ishmael

 

[BotanyBoy]

What's with this WE shit? I know who wanted to go to war and I know who blinked. I know who fled the international stage after shooting off his mouth. Do you?

Ishmael

So had he pulled the trigger and gone in to back the bark up with some bite you would have supported it??? REALLY?

 

[Dazzle1]

We were SO willing to start a war. It took Vladimir PUTIN to be the voice of calm and reason. It is disturbing that we did not seem willing/able to obtain a diplomatic solution. And our leader won the Nobel Peace Prize. Guess who gets it this year. This seems like a case of "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." It looks like the military is our solution to every problem.

What makes us look bad is Obama declaring a red lie and backing down.

Nothing wrong using Drone to take out the bad actors on both sides.

Obama makes us look weak, but you liberals thought he could change the world.

 

[LillyO]

What's with this WE shit? I know who wanted to go to war and I know who blinked. I know who fled the international stage after shooting off his mouth. Do you?

Ishmael

Clever sig line. I saw it the first time on the net,
believe is was on a farm in North Carolina. I saw it again drving on I-5 to portland.

Where did you first see it?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Clever sig line. I saw it the first time on the net,
believe is was on a farm in North Carolina. I saw it again drving on I-5 to portland.

Where did you first see it?

Was there a bird on that vehicle?

 

[RobDownSouth]

Clever sig line. I saw it the first time on the net,
believe is was on a farm in North Carolina. I saw it again drving on I-5 to portland.

Where did you first see it?

It's on the "Resident Rules and Regulations" bulletin board at his assisted living facility.

 

[Recidiva]

You can't look at immediate conditions and make a fair analysis without looking at starting conditions and changing conditions.

Russia has protected Syria for a good long while and has blocked all attempts to interfere in their internal affairs unless Russia is doing it.

So say Russia -10 for that. Self-involved and politically transparent reasoning for economic and Geopolitical reasons.

But. Russia is not the only country that does this. America protects Israel and Saudi Arabia and China protects North Korea, which is, and has been, much worse than Syria for decades with starvation and no crop growth because they're growing poppies and cannibalism and all manner of horrors and abuse.

So Syria kicks up enough of a stink that the rest of the world pays attention there because they think they might be able to do something about that instead of just paying attention to North Korea where they know they can't.

Russia does a reasonably intelligent thing, and instead of ramping up hostilities and telling the world to fuck off in the same way China has been doing about North Korea for years, that maybe they'll take away some of the cannibalism, but the starvation, horrors an abuse will continue.

The end point is not that Russia beat us, it's that Russia is slightly more morally responsible than China.

It doesn't make us look bad. It makes us able to read the map and the news.

So China -10

Russia -5

USA probably -3 as we're counting points. It's still a better score overall. We protect Israel but people in Saudi Arabia have no political ability to rise up or change their leadership because we've armed them so effectively.

 

[tactful]

Alfred, is going to be so proud that his Noble Prize will be given to some one who really deserves it, will Alfred E. Neuman be awarding it personally?

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You’ve/we’ve been trying to find a diplomatic solution for 2 fucking years.

Bad cop put’s a gun on the table and all of a sudden things start to happen.

You really think that Assad would even be taking about handing over his chemical weapons without the gun on the table, let alone stop using them?

Woof!

Actually Assad and Putin won and liberals are right back to where they started; just like Iraq, now you play the fucking UN Inspectors game for fucking ever or put boots on the ground.

Are you willing to support boots on the ground in Syria???

Bill Clinton wasn't in Iraq.

If Barack Obama isn't open to anything more than unbelievably small actions, then Assad and Putin play like North Korea and fuck with us for decades upon decades. And all you got in return, libcons, was a Neville Chamberlain moment...

You feel good for 15 minutes before reality sets in.

And, it was not the threat of a pinprick, it was John Kerry's blunder. If a pinprick can cause so much movement so quickly, WHY DOESN'T HE DO IT TO AFFECT THE REGIME CHANGE HE HAS BEEN CLAIMING HE WANTS???

 

[RobDownSouth]

Actually Assad and Putin won and liberals are right back to where they started; just like Iraq, now you play the fucking UN Inspectors game for fucking ever or put boots on the ground.

Are you willing to support boots on the ground in Syria???

Bill Clinton wasn't in Iraq.

If Barack Obama isn't open to anything more than unbelievably small actions, then Assad and Putin play like North Korea and fuck with us for decades upon decades. And all you got in return, libcons, was a Neville Chamberlain moment...

You feel good for 15 minutes before reality sets in.

And, it was not the threat of a pinprick, it was John Kerry's blunder. If a pinprick can cause so much movement so quickly, WHY DOESN'T HE DO IT TO AFFECT THE REGIME CHANGE HE HAS BEEN CLAIMING HE WANTS???

Tell us your solution, by all means.
Try not to include the phrase "it's too late!"

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You know I hate this line. It's like people forget that pretty much everybody was on board with Bush's wars until it became painfully obvious that Bush was either lying to us or being lied to and buying it. Id' be more shocked if those "lefties" weren't on board for the Syria war the same way they are on board for Afghanistan and were on board for Iraq and are on board for a potential Iran war. There are no doves in America. We all love our hammer and want to hit things. There are only people who want to hit things first without asking questions and those who'd rather wait until we're sure we're hitting the right thing.

Bullshit.

The Friday before the liberation of Afghanistan, in order to secure polling numbers for an upcoming election, the leading Democrats decided to use their allies in the press by using their all-too willing microphones as bullhorns to demand George Bush explain why he was doing NOTHING about the Taliban. The following morning they had egg on their faces.

The only reason they voted FOR in Iraq, was once again, upcoming elections and they continually turned on him and the military, betting openly on massive gas attacks and a defeat and with the first pause for logistics, they were jumping up and down screaming...


"WE TOLD YOU SO!!!"

The it was "NOT ENOUGH FORCE TO SECURE THE MUSEUM!!!"

It was only with the clarity of 20-20 hindsight and victory in sight that the Democrats tried once again to get Bush to surrender by starting to scream about having been lied to instead of joining with him and sharing the credit, because *gasp* once again, elections were around the corner.

 

[Recidiva]

The it was "NOT ENOUGH FORCE TO SECURE THE MUSEUM!!!"

This I agree with. Of course I was appalled that people were looting their own museums and treasures.

I thought, well, maybe a better battle plan would have secured that. I'm sure that protecting the oil was important as that is a strategic resource.

When Paris was liberated, did American GI's have to guard the museums from Parisans?

No, because the Parisian people were not in the least bit interested in looting the Louvre. I could be wrong here, but I would say that's more of a historical first IMO.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

So you guys have been sucking Putin's cock and bitching for 3 weeks about Obama being a bloodthirsty tyrant etc...but now that it looks like military action has been avoided, it's STILL a bad thing?

It has been put off.

Putting off a fight only makes it worse, witness Iraq and their surrender agreement and its enforcement.



We had no business doing anything than working diplomatic channels and if it were not for our President's unscripted red-line comments, we would not be on the hook for trying to make this particular piece-of-shit-to-save-face agreement work.

The only good that comes out of it is political.

Democrats get their "WE WON!" moment.

What have you won?

Violence is still on the table...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

This I agree with. Of course I was appalled that people were looting their own museums and treasures.

I thought, well, maybe a better battle plan would have secured that. I'm sure that protecting the oil was important as that is a strategic resource.

When Paris was liberated, did American GI's have to guard the museums from Parisans?

No, because the Parisian people were not in the least bit interested in looting the Louvre. I could be wrong here, but I would say that's more of a historical first IMO.

But, as we later learned, and this is something that so many people forget, Iraq is the cradle of civilization; they have been a civilized and educated people for a long time, and as such, they had had the foresight to hide most of the treasures at the inception of hostilities and most of the damage shown to the American Public FOR POLITICAL EFFECT, was in fact, cosmetic.

Actually, by the time we hit Normandy, Goering had pretty much cleared out the largess of the Public Art holdings...



Battle plans, as Eisenhower pointed out, never survive first contact. The only plan the military should ever have is to win, and to win by whatever means is necessary and if Saddam did not want his museums "looted," all he had to do was not fuck with the inspectors, they way Assad is going to with Putin looking over his shoulder and telling the world that he is complying as best he can, but that the Americans are being too demanding and arrogant in their haste to retreat from the Middle East.

 

[Bad_Doggie]

Actually Assad and Putin won and liberals are right back to where they started; just like Iraq, now you play the fucking UN Inspectors game for fucking ever or put boots on the ground.

Well, of course, who’d be surprised if you said anything different?

The objective of removing chemical weapons from Syria might be realized without a single shot fired and not a single US death. If the chemical weapons or most of them are removed from Syria that can only be a good thing for the world regardless of who eventually wins.

That’s the political slam dunk that would choke you to admit.

Are you willing to support boots on the ground in Syria???

Nope, are you?

Bill Clinton wasn't in Iraq.

Dunno what you’re getting at here?

If Barack Obama isn't open to anything more than unbelievably small actions, then Assad and Putin play like North Korea and fuck with us for decades upon decades. And all you got in return, libcons, was a Neville Chamberlain moment...

You feel good for 15 minutes before reality sets in.

So what do you want now, another state building exercise so you can shout tyrant, justification for Iraq?

You don’t get subtle do you?

And, it was not the threat of a pinprick, it was John Kerry's blunder. If a pinprick can cause so much movement so quickly, WHY DOESN'T HE DO IT TO AFFECT THE REGIME CHANGE HE HAS BEEN CLAIMING HE WANTS???

Perhaps you’d like to tell why you think so much has happened, and the Russian’s have been so engaged, since Obama said he was going to bomb Syria…..it’s all just a coincidence I guess?

Woof!

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You simply do not see that you have put yourself back into the same box that the liberal world view put us into at the end of Desert Storm.

Too squeamish to finish the job, the world-wide Left insisted that we stop at the border and come to some sort of agreement that they could all live with and that Saddam had no intention of ever living up to.

But we had a real reason to take on Saddam; he invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia.

Assad has done nothing of the sort!

However, our President drew a line in the sand, and that line has figuratively put us back on the Iraqi border, only this time it is Syria and the ONLY way they are ever going to comply is if we kick in the door and serve then with a search warrant the same way we did with Saddam...

Russia sure as hell isn't going to do it and trust me on this one, with their promise of arms and assistance, unbelievably small pinpricks are not forcing Assad to do anything anywhere any time soon.



Enjoy your victory, for you own the trophy and it is full involvement in Syria now...

When we do nothing (and pinpricks are nothing) we are not going to look one whit stronger or more credible.

 

[Bad_Doggie]

Exactly!

Putin didn't "win" anything. Not by a long shot. We didn't want to go to war over but we also couldn't allow a country to use chemical weapons.

By making the threat of war, Russia "is" now involved, we get all of Syria's chemical weapons off the table and we don't have to go to war.

The outcome is a huge win for the U.S., not for Russia. The only people claiming it is a win for Russia is the far right wing which lives by "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mentality.

They don't see the irony of being friendlier to Russia than democrats.

Too fucking funny!

The thing is I don’t believe the Russian objectives are much different than the West’s.

We shouldn’t focus on fighting the last war (the cold war), but, the war right now.

Russia’s main objective, for good reason, is that the chemical weapons do not end up in the hands of militant Islamists, with the secondary objective of maintaining a presence in the region.

The removal of chemical weapons from the region suits Russia just fine, regardless who wins.

If we're real lucky the best outcome for us will be better cooperation between the US and the west to defeat radical Islam.


Woof!

 

[Bad_Doggie]

You simply do not see that you have put yourself back into the same box that the liberal world view put us into at the end of Desert Storm.

Too squeamish to finish the job, the world-wide Left insisted that we stop at the border and come to some sort of agreement that they could all live with and that Saddam had no intention of ever living up to.

But we had a real reason to take on Saddam; he invaded Kuwait and threatened Saudi Arabia.

Assad has done nothing of the sort!

However, our President drew a line in the sand, and that line has figuratively put us back on the Iraqi border, only this time it is Syria and the ONLY way they are ever going to comply is if we kick in the door and serve then with a search warrant the same way we did with Saddam...

Russia sure as hell isn't going to do it and trust me on this one, with their promise of arms and assistance, unbelievably small pinpricks are not forcing Assad to do anything anywhere any time soon.



Enjoy your victory, for you own the trophy and it is full involvement in Syria now...

When we do nothing (and pinpricks are nothing) we are not going to look one whit stronger or more credible.

I’ll answer this in a bit. But, first a straight question, let’s see if you can give a straight answer….

You support a boots on the ground action, yes or no?

Woof!

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The thing is I don’t believe the Russian objectives are much different than the West’s.

We shouldn’t focus on fighting the last war (the cold war), but, the war right now.

Russia’s main objective, for good reason, is that the chemical weapons do not end up in the hands of militant Islamists, with the secondary objective of maintaining a presence in the region.

The removal of chemical weapons from the region suits Russia just fine, regardless who wins.

If we're real lucky the best outcome for us will be better cooperation between the US and the west to defeat radical Islam.


Woof!

I think that that first statement is the niave root of most of America's (and the West in general) that, for the most part, they think just like us.

I do not believe for a second that they have gotten over the way the Cold War ended and the loss of territory and that this is just part of a larger plan to enable Shiites to kill Sunnis and allow them a chance to get back and re-establish control of the break-aways and that probably includes places like Poland too...

Russia could give a shit if they gas each other, civilians, the west or even Russia, in fact, a small (staged) gas attack might be the very thing they need to get the tank columns rolling again.

We cannot defeat the radicals. They cannot directly defeat us, for they are divided and we are divided and for the most part, the West is at war with itself between extreme Liberalism and the Libertarian mindset that many of us have about not wanting the Leftist-leaning state to be our nannies.

How much more evidence do we need form the IRS, the NSA, Homeland Security to know that we are a much bigger threat to them than the beautiful peaceful diversity that
is Islam...

It is this indirection that they will overcome our advantages.

And do not think for one second that the Mullahs see us as more credible by keeping pinpricks on the table (a measuring joke for PlanetQueen) and that the world has not gotten less, rather than more safe for this face-saving agreement with Herr Hitl..., whoops got carried away, the idiot son Bashir.

If you think the Russians have just accepted that the Cold War is over and that they are leaving it behind them, then I do not think that we will ever agree on anything, because from the Vikings to Dostoevsky, that sure doesn't sound like the Mother Russia I have come to understand.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I’ll answer this in a bit. But, first a straight question, let’s see if you can give a straight answer….

You support a boots on the ground action, yes or no?

Woof!

Go to pages one to three of reci's thread and you will see exactly where I stand before it degenerated into A_J's only thought is how to make the President look worse.

I do not think we have ANY business there and I said it clearly and without equivocation.

Now, it is the people who have been backing the brilliant plan and use of force by our President that now have to answer that question. Now, those very same people said YES! when it was Saddam, right before they cut and run.

Am I going to follow that banner into war?

Not a fucking chance...