Does a person die during an abortion?

[Never]

Please note, the name of this title is not ‘Are you pro-life or pro-choice?’ I’m interested in discussing biology, maybe, philosophy, or just feelings but not politics.

I can understand the argument that a morning after pill isn’t killing a person. A zygote in no way resembles any creature I know, let alone a human being. However, I have trouble thinking of a fetus older than, say, twelve weeks as being anything other than a person. The brain is fully formed; the heart is the same as an infants; the fetus has toes, teeth, and fingernails, the fetus cries, moves, and sucks its thumb. Heck, at 8 weeks a fetus has brain waves.

Therefore, for me the answer would be that any abortion after 8 to 12 weeks means the death of a person.

 

[Jim_Henson]

Its possible.... sfter all you are going to draw blood but highly unlikely nowadays.

 

[Shadowann2]

Yes it is, at any point. Why does it have to look like a human to be a life to you? At any point it has the potential, if left alone, to become another human being.


Are you sure you want to open this can of worms?

 

[Guest]

 

[Never]

Shadwann2:
“Yes it is, at any point.


Are you sure you want to open this can of worms?”

It’s not a can of worms if people act politely.

I don’t agree with your ‘at any point’, however. At four weeks an embryo has no brain, no beating heart, no spine, and blobs of tissue that are going to develop into a liver, kidneys, and intestines. I have difficulty considering that living.

 

[Shadowann2]

I don’t agree with your ‘at any point’, however. At four weeks an embryo has no brain, no beating heart, no spine, and blobs of tissue that are going to develop into a liver, kidneys, and intestines. I have difficulty considering that living. [/B]

Even though you know that, if not aborted, in a few short days it will have all those things?

 

[Samuari]

Shadwann2:
“Yes it is, at any point.


Are you sure you want to open this can of worms?”

It’s not a can of worms if people act politely.

I don’t agree with your ‘at any point’, however. At four weeks an embryo has no brain, no beating heart, no spine, and blobs of tissue that are going to develop into a liver, kidneys, and intestines. I have difficulty considering that living.

I don't know I think that you have to consider it living, but is it a person? That, I think is the crucial question. You can us Occum's razor and see who shaved the barber?

 

[Guest]

Definately going to have differing opinons in this thread.


I think that until the fetus has a beating heart...its not a person. When someone's heart stops beating.. they are considered dead...are they not?

I believe that the heart and soul go together... and if there isn't a heart... there isn't a soul.

 

[Shadowann2]

Definately going to have differing opinons in this thread.


I think that until the fetus has a beating heart...its not a person. When someone's heart stops beating.. they are considered dead...are they not?

I believe that the heart and soul go together... and if there isn't a heart... there isn't a soul.

A fetus has a beating heart at 18 days. I don't know any woman who knew she was pregnant befor 4 weeks! How does abortion fit into that?

 

[Guest]

 

[Never]

Shadwann2
“Even though you know that, if not aborted, in a few short days it will have all those things?”

Yes. I think there’s a difference between being an assemblage of living tissue and being a living organism. Even if it’s only 14 days until one becomes the other.

 

[Guest]

certain blood tests can detect the hcg hormone as much as a few days after conception.


and... the heart in a normal fetus is completely formed at six weeks ... Differentiation at 3 weeks.

Brain development begins around the same time as the heart development... but isn't completely formed until 28 weeks after conception

so there is still quite a window there.


*edited because I suck at spelling.... LOL*

 

[Shadowann2]

Yes. I think there’s a difference between being an assemblage of tissue and being a living organism. Even if it’s only 14 days until one becomes the other. [/B]

But aren't you still killing a person? Like I said earlier, it has a heart beat at 18 days, long before a woman realizes she is pregnant. I just don't see the difference between killing it before it reaches that point and killing it after. Either way it has exactly the same potential to be born and live independant of it's mother. Just because it doesn't look like a human doesn't change what it will become!

 

[rounder03]

The scientific method of observation confirms that this "mass of tissue" or "group of cells" is human...a fact that will be confirmed in around nine months if permitted to continue. That is what "abortion" means... aborting (stopping) a process that has already begun. One does not need to terminate a pregnancy unless a child has been conceived. The EPT test does not inform a woman that "you are about to become pregant"...that fact has already been established, both as scientific fact and common sense. Playing around with semantics will not change reality.

Science is prolife. Superstition is proabortion.

 

[Guest]

The EPT test does not inform a woman that "you are about to become pregant"...

but they do have ovulation tests that can tell you when you can become pregnant.

scientific or not.... it all boils down to one's own views.

 

[glamorilla]

i think it's a question with no correct answer~i think the potential to be a person is there right from the start but i rationalize with the 12 week limit.

 

[Shadowann2]

certain blood tests can detect the hcg hormone as much as a few days after conception.


and... the heart in a normal fetus is completely formed at six weeks ... Differentiation at 3 weeks.

Brain development begins around the same time as the heart development... but isn't completely formed until 28 weeks after conception

so there is still quite a window there.


*edited because I suck at spelling.... LOL*

True, but how many women go days after conception to get that blood test? The average woman finds out when she has missed her period. At that point she is 2-3 weeks along. By the time she makes the decision to have an abortion and gets in to the abortion doctor, she would most likely be about 5-6 weeks along. And by then the heart is almost fully formed!

 

[rounder03]

P.S. Those using the argument of "appearances" to determine the humanity of the "product of conception" are not being very scientific. Scientists examine the evidence to determine the nature of organisms. They do not rely solely on appearance. This is pretty basic stuff and generally common knowledge.

 

[rounder03]

but they do have ovulation tests that can tell you when you can become pregnant.

scientific or not.... it all boils down to one's own views.

I believe we are talking about two different facets of pregnancy.

 

[Guest]

True, but how many women go days after conception to get that blood test?

Women who are on fertility treatments, such as implantation proceedures and those who are trying to conceive.

Also, I suppose that in some incidences... women who have been raped and miss the 'morning after pill' window, might decide to do this.

 

[Shadowann2]

Women who are on fertility treatments, such as implantation proceedures and those who are trying to conceive.

But these incidences don't really apply here. Why would a woman in this situation want to get an abortion?

 

[Guest]

multiple pregnancies.

but that is a different topic...you just asked what people actually had those tests done.

I would never get an abortion. that is my view... not to turn this thread into that type of subject... but its seriously all in the eye of the beholder. Opinions don't make something a fact.

 

[Lost Cause]

My own experience...

At 17, my girlfriend got pregnant. I asked her what she wanted to do, she said she wanted an abortion. I went with her through the whole thing, and eventually we got married later after I went into the service. We had a boy, which had open heart surgery at 7 mos at Duke Univ. (first 2 % of the experimental procedure at that time.) After he was fixed up, we'd be playing with him and I would catch my wife weeping. I would ask her what was wrong, and she said she was just thinking about the abortion, and what kind of child it would have been. This still bothers her to this day, even though we're not together, my son tells me that sometimes mom would cry for no reason, and I think I know why. Just a secret page out of my life for all of you to see.

http://www.allaboutmoms.com/usgallery.htm

 

[rounder03]

[I hope this does not seem inappropriate as it relates to LostCause's very personal experience]

Regardless of our views, as everyone's circumstances and reactions are different, I think everyone who reads your post will be touched and will be thinking of you and your wife.

 

[Shadowann2]

Well after LC's post i feel like I should share my story and the reason behind my feelings.

My best friend's mom has a nerve disorder and when she found out she was pregnant, the doctor told her that if she had the baby she would die. So she went and had an abortion. What no one knew was that she was pregnant with twins and that the abortion only got one of the babies. By the time she found out that she ws still pregnant, it was too late to have another abortion and she decided that she didn't want it anyway. So she gave birth to my b/f and guess what...she's still alive and has 3 grandkids by my b/f. The baby that was aborted could have just as easily been my b/f and I would never had the chance to have her in my life and her 3 beautiful children would never have been born!

And from an even more personal point of view...I've been there! I'm here because my mom chose to have me instead of having an abortion. I'm adopted because my mom chose life even though she couldn't take care of me. At 16 I got pregnant and was faced with the same choice. I now have a beautiful 6 year old daughter who lives in another state with her loving adopted parents. I believe that all life is precious from the instant of conception and it's not just words to me! I have actions to back it up.

Oops! Didn't mean for that to be so long, but this is something that I feel passionitly about!