Delving the Psyche of Sadists

[catalina_francisco]

Sadism is a basic emotion, a need that runs high through your body. There is nothing like causing pain to your victim, the fear in the eyes, the skin crawling, the flesh retracting unwillingly away from your hand. The thought alone arouses me.

To me sadism is quite simple and straightforward, I enjoy giving pain to others and it arouses me. If I would not control my sadistic urges, there would not be a limit to the pain that I could inflict and no boundaries that I would not cross to get the kick and the rush that I receive from inflicting pain. In fantasies I have fucked a corpse after beating it to death. Of course there is a difference between fantasy and reality.

That is my basic need; one of my urges is to create pain. It has taken me years to accept what I am and what it is I enjoy. There has always been a great sense of shame accompanied with it and a lot of denial.

There is however also something besides my sadism, I am also a fully integrated individual in the western world. This means I am not out at night in the dark streets of Amsterdam looking for potential victims to torture to death, so there must be something that controls those urges. I am a fully sentient being and I have a sense of morality, I understand what is good and what is wrong, I imagine myself to be a cultured and educated person, all those qualities have made me control my basic sadistic needs. It has controlled me so much that I have ignored and suppressed my basic urges for a great deal of my life, which made me extremely unhappy.

To be able to function I need to feed my sadistic hunger or I get into a deep depression which removes the colour out of the world and makes me live in a black and white world. But my built in controls dictates the way I can feed my hunger. This has lead to my finding a partner that enjoys going down the same dark road I have but then instead of being sadistic she is masochistic. It is a perfect partnership in which we both fulfil our needs and hungers, we have a good symbiotic relationship. There is a lot more to it and I have been very fortunate with Catalina and there is a deep fulfilling love between us, but if there would not be the symbiotic part to our relationship then we would have no chance in hell.

Francisco.

 

[RJMasters]

Sadism is a basic emotion, a need that runs high through your body. There is nothing like causing pain to your victim, the fear in the eyes, the skin crawling, the flesh retracting unwillingly away from your hand. The thought alone arouses me.

To me sadism is quite simple and straightforward, I enjoy giving pain to others and it arouses me. If I would not control my sadistic urges, there would not be a limit to the pain that I could inflict and no boundaries that I would not cross to get the kick and the rush that I receive from inflicting pain. In fantasies I have fucked a corpse after beating it to death. Of course there is a difference between fantasy and reality.

That is my basic need; one of my urges is to create pain. It has taken me years to accept what I am and what it is I enjoy. There has always been a great sense of shame accompanied with it and a lot of denial.

There is however also something besides my sadism, I am also a fully integrated individual in the western world. This means I am not out at night in the dark streets of Amsterdam looking for potential victims to torture to death, so there must be something that controls those urges. I am a fully sentient being and I have a sense of morality, I understand what is good and what is wrong, I imagine myself to be a cultured and educated person, all those qualities have made me control my basic sadistic needs. It has controlled me so much that I have ignored and suppressed my basic urges for a great deal of my life, which made me extremely unhappy.

To be able to function I need to feed my sadistic hunger or I get into a deep depression which removes the colour out of the world and makes me live in a black and white world. But my built in controls dictates the way I can feed my hunger. This has lead to my finding a partner that enjoys going down the same dark road I have but then instead of being sadistic she is masochistic. It is a perfect partnership in which we both fulfil our needs and hungers, we have a good symbiotic relationship. There is a lot more to it and I have been very fortunate with Catalina and there is a deep fulfilling love between us, but if there would not be the symbiotic part to our relationship then we would have no chance in hell.

Francisco.

Nods Respectfully, thank you Francisco.

 

[crazybbwgirl]

......... snip...That is my basic need; one of my urges is to create pain. It has taken me years to accept what I am and what it is I enjoy. There has always been a great sense of shame accompanied with it and a lot of denial.
....snip.......
To be able to function I need to feed my sadistic hunger or I get into a deep depression which removes the colour out of the world and makes me live in a black and white world.....snip.....
Francisco.

This was so enlightening and also very close to home in regards to my attitude toward my sexuality. That loss of color - so true! It also gave me great insight into what my Dom must be thinking. Thanks.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Oddball thought

Is the pyl a means to an end, or the end itself when feeding the animal?

And please, keep the Barney Badass comments to a minimum. Most of us know a PYL can go looking for another piece of meat to beat if so inclined. i'm curious if anyone finds beating one piece of meat over another akin to the difference between rarely consumed filet mignon, and a McDonald's Happy Meal burger picked up going through the drive-thru for convenience.

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Oddball thought

Is the pyl a means to an end, or the end itself when feeding the animal?

And please, keep the Barney Badass comments to a minimum. Most of us know a PYL can go looking for another piece of meat to beat if so inclined. i'm curious if anyone finds beating one piece of meat over another akin to the difference between rarely consumed filet mignon, and a McDonald's Happy Meal burger picked up going through the drive-thru for convenience.

If I take your meaning AA...

The happy meal you refer to is what I call a BDSM twinkie or bdsm junk food.

I don't have any real life experience enough to give you an answer, but considering the way I view things, I prefer the type of submissive who is a 7 course meal.

In this regard, its more about quality than quantity, which I feel can only be found within the conext of a long lasting relationship. There is an accumulative quality that is reached over time.

I know I am not a sadist in the sense that I enjoy inflicting pain on another, unless I know the results of such is one that the person enjoys and will bring them closer to me.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Re: Oddball thought

If I take your meaning AA ...

Pretty much nailed it.

So ... is, in your case, she the means to an end, or the goal? Based on this,

... unless I know the results of such is one that the person enjoys and will bring them closer to me.

i'd guess she's the goal?

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: Oddball thought

Is the pyl a means to an end, or the end itself when feeding the animal?

And please, keep the Barney Badass comments to a minimum. Most of us know a PYL can go looking for another piece of meat to beat if so inclined. i'm curious if anyone finds beating one piece of meat over another akin to the difference between rarely consumed filet mignon, and a McDonald's Happy Meal burger picked up going through the drive-thru for convenience.

hmmm hamburger or steak, arent those the same? i wanna be lobster. k?

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: Re: Oddball thought

Pretty much nailed it.

So ... is, in your case, she the means to an end, or the goal? Based on this, i'd guess she's the goal?

Absolutely, as posted in my original post.


In some ways I have a clear and narrow reason why. I use pain as a means to induce deeper love, loyalty and fear in order to draw the person of my desire closer to me.

This obviously requires "her" to be at some level a masocist as only then would it produce the desired response.

The goal is her, and for her to be closer to me. And some of the things inwhich I reap from this on a personal level...

is control, devotion and respectful obedience

In my 2nd post to this thread, I hinted or mentioned this....


Then pain becomes an extention, vehicle or tool and becomes secondary in importance to the person(s) in the relationship.

So for me "She" is the goal, and "inflicting pain" becomes the means to an end. That is the limit to the sadist in me.

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: Oddball thought

hmmm hamburger or steak, arent those the same?

Depends on how much grinding you do

 

[Kajira Callista]

Re: Re: Re: Oddball thought

Depends on how much grinding you do

or are told ta do

 

[Netzach]

Re: Oddball thought

Is the pyl a means to an end, or the end itself when feeding the animal?

And please, keep the Barney Badass comments to a minimum. Most of us know a PYL can go looking for another piece of meat to beat if so inclined. i'm curious if anyone finds beating one piece of meat over another akin to the difference between rarely consumed filet mignon, and a McDonald's Happy Meal burger picked up going through the drive-thru for convenience.

Both.

I prefer salade nicoise and organic fruits.

If I am starving I will certainly go for white castle when I can make the pilgrimage.

 

[Pure]

That was quite eloquent, Francisco. And there are problems with some of these formulations,

{{Added: That is to say, problems insofar as setups like you describe are taken as templates for expression of 'sadism' or SM fulfillment. I am not taking issue with your reports of the relationship, your happiness therein, or suggesting IT has problems.}}


e.g.,

Sadism is a basic emotion, a need that runs high through your body. There is nothing like causing pain to your victim, the fear in the eyes, the skin crawling, the flesh retracting unwillingly away from your hand. The thought alone arouses me.

Besides pain, you mention fear. Another issue is 'power over' another.

But my built in controls dictates the way I can feed my hunger. This has lead to my finding a partner that enjoys going down the same dark road I have but then instead of being sadistic she is masochistic. It is a perfect partnership in which we both fulfil our needs and hungers, we have a good symbiotic relationship.

So where would fear come in. From your pov, based on your knowledge of her, of all the people in the world, she is going to be the _least_ afraid, say, when you approach with a sharp blade.

From her pov., if I may speculate, you are--all due respect--a known quantity. Leaving aside your imagination, what you *actually do* could not be much of a surprise. E.g., with a blade you will chose a safe area like the shoulder/deltoid, and the cuts will go 1 mm, and certainly not 5.

We get to the question of what the 'masochist' might be expecting. Well, there may be a variety of expectations, depending on the person. But lets look at pain. The M wants that, to a certain degree, of a certain kind. That might be the pain, as in the example, of a shallow cut to the shoulder. The present M, in the 'loving symbiotic' relationship does NOT want the pain, say, of being ignored for a few evenings while you fuck some other ladies, in front of her. In the present case, then, the pain received is such as fits an agreed set of expectations. That, presumably leads to her feeling safe.

Anyway, you're very articulate, and none of this is to say you should have any different set-up than you do, and I don't doubt that it suits you, that you are 'a lucky man,' and so on.
Just a few reflections.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Re: Oddball thought

Both.

I prefer salade nicoise and organic fruits.

If I am starving I will certainly go for white castle when I can make the pilgrimage.

Sliders Netzi?

You actually got me to laugh with that one. i had no idea WC had the nerve to invade the borders of your state.

 

[graceanne]

Re: Re: Oddball thought

Both.

I prefer salade nicoise and organic fruits.

If I am starving I will certainly go for white castle when I can make the pilgrimage.

Oh, I miss white castle. There's no white castle in Oregon. I know that my aunt karen craved white castles when she was preggo with my cousin rachel, but she was living in Germany at the time! (Air Force) We all felt so bad for her.

 

[Betticus]

After reading Francisco's post I'm thinking we need a spinoff topic for the sadist within people. Something about what is some fantasy of yours involving sadism that scares even you?

 

[catalina_francisco]

LOL Pure....you obviously don't get the type relationship we have if you think he avoids doing things I will be 'truly' fearful of based on my knowledge of him and his love of me. You see, what you are missing is the fact I do know him (and he does love me) which has the power to generate humungous amounts of fear, and rightly so....knowing each other, and loving each other means it drives (or perhaps allows would be better terminology) him to contemplate those things which formerly had to remain fantasy 'never can do things' simply because there was not the right or desire to explore the dark depths many, if not most, shy away from simply because they see them as being outside that realm of acceptable or risk worthy....it also means I know what he is capable of and wants, and that he is intent on having his way despite the cautionary voice inside either of us.

You see, part of the success in this relationship is based on the fact he is unpredictable in the extreme and where I am concerned can never be guaranteed to stick to the old and tried patterns, the predictable, in fact that bores both of us eventually....he does push his own limits as well as mine, and has developed a tantalisation/fascination with playing in areas he had always said 'never' to and meant sincerely....and found an attractiveness in pushing past the bounds of safe and non-lasting in effect to contemplate and accept there will be lasting damage that will not be wiped away in a few hours or a lifetime in some cases. I accept that risk because there is a kindred spirit in me which thrives on such contemplations, but even so I am none the less scared out of my wits nor am I complacent, obediently accepting and trusting he will stop just before it goes beyond what I can endure or may like....I know there are times he will not stop at the 1 mm mark, times he will not think 'this is going to leave visible/invisible scars for the rest of her life' and stop, instead choosing to continue. If I didn't know him so well I could take momentary comfort in thinking he would never go this far, but I do and I know he is capable and willing to go there despite the consequences. His being a sadist is real, my being a masochist is real also, but does not mean he is guided and restricted by my level of masoochism and bearable pain and suffering....he finds the thought I may not be able to bear it, thus be really tortured as opposed to accepting and receiving to pleasurable levels only, an aphrodesiac and thrill to outstrip all others.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

Catalina,

Though you have spoken well in response to Pure's comments, I can assure you that no explanation or defense of anything Francisco has said is neccessary, as respect for his reputation preceeds him as to the type of man he is.

-----------------

Pure,

Your observations of the dichotomy that exists between the safety of a loving relationship, and yet allowing true fear to be realised between a S/M couple, is a very good observation and I would have enjoyed discussing it. However, you framed your observations within a personal context, which will only lead to a futile circular arguments.

So I am "asking" you if you wish to contribute, please use the intellect you have to share your observations that will lead to positive open discussions so that they can stand or fall on their own merits.

In response to your post, I would only like to say this for your consideration.

That part of what Francisco chose to share or reveal about himself, is in fact only one part of the total man. Everyone of us have in one way or another areas of our lives which conflict to some degree. Though I am not agreeing with your observations, I am merely pointing out, this was not an exercise in logic nor did everything have to "formulate". To me it was a demonstration of courage in revealing "a part" of who he is and he makes no apologies for it. It is this reason a man like Francisco will always hold my respect.

I would invite you to make the same demonstration of courage and instead of keeping the conversation at arms length, bear a little about who you are.

Being honest, I know you could prolly rip apart much of what I revealed about myself at the beginning of this thread. I hope you don't, wouldn't enjoy it if you did.

The last time we posted, we parted on gentlemen terms. I do hope we both still consider that a worth while endevor.

 

[Pure]

RJM--

That part of what Francisco chose to share or reveal about himself, is in fact only one part of the total man

I believe I complimented him on his eloquence and articulation, and am happy for his relationship. Perhaps that did not come across to you. From what I know, Francisco, the "total man"--NOT the subject of the posting--is indeed admirable, intelligent, moral etc. Why do you even raise such a point?

You say
However, you framed your observations within a personal context, which will only lead to a futile circular arguments.

Well, I took what he said, to use as an example, and to *raise some general issues,* not make a personal critique.

So I am "asking" you if you wish to contribute, please use the intellect you have to share your observations that will lead to positive open discussions so that they can stand or fall on their own merits.

I believe I highlighted the general issues. Catalina saw them and responded. You saw them and apparently were too miffed or upset or ?? to respond. You seem, throughout your post to imply that Francisco was insulted, misused, or spoken ill of.

If you will show me where I abused, slighted, or spoke ill of F, I'll certainly apologize or do my best to remedy the situation.


J.
----

 

[Netzach]

Re: Re: Re: Oddball thought

Sliders Netzi?

You actually got me to laugh with that one. i had no idea WC had the nerve to invade the borders of your state.

Yes, Harold and Kumar do Lake Wobegon is coming soon to a theater near you.

But I'm laughing myself now, thinking "have I beaten the bottom equivalent of a "slider" for nothing but my own amusement?" And lo and behold I have when I've had to.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Oddball thought

And lo and behold I have when I've had to.

Then my hat's off to you for knowing what you want and taking it without guilt.

 

[RJMasters]

In way of introduction, this next post was an exchange between me and AA in PM. (posted by mutual agreement)



RJMasters wrote on 11-09-2004 04:15 AM:
So where you at with all this AA? Anything you care to add? Thoughts? Insights?

I would truly enjoy it if you took some time to organize some thoughts of your own and contribute them to the thread.

Thanks for asking the question you did, and please feel free to ask more that would open it up for further discussion.

Thanks for your time.

Rich
-----------

AngelicAssassin wrote on 11-09-2004 10:57 AM:
Not sure what you wish here.

i'm blood thirsty and keep it on a tight leash because i know that about myself.

i know, with the right person, i can take it right to the criminal prosecution edge, dangle her over the abyss, and get off on her not knowing whether i'll let go.

Is that what you're asking?

-----------
RJMasters wrote on 11-09-2004 06:56 AM:
Yes...

The only other thing I would ask is "why". You might not even be able to answer that. Maybe there is no answer to that. But if there is, even if it is a partial answer, I would like to try to understand.

Is it rage or hate? Is it about control? All the above?

Is it because all that you see in life is surface and shallow to your intellect?

How is it you maintain such honor, yet can do as you describe? My mind cannot grasp it, and maybe its not suppose to, hell I don't know AA.

I guess I really am seeking to understand the why. Where else can I go for the answer? You have the intellect to know if the answer exist, and you have the personal knowledge.

So I guess I am asking "why" in a very honest way in hopes that you might share it.
-----------

AngelicAssassin wrote on 11-09-2004 07:46 PM

These are valid questions of everyone, not just me. And i promise to answer them publicly, if you ask publicly. i'm not blowing you off. i just realized in the process of answering this, you will only get my view of VERY valid questions. You can point blank post the entire PM, annotate it with my agreement to post the PM, and get EVERYONE's feedback.

--------------END

Not only is the playground open...but now were serving ice cream!

 

[Kajira Callista]

do you have extra fire extinguishers on hand darlin'?

 

[RJMasters]

do you have extra fire extinguishers on hand darlin'?

Think we are gonna need em?

 

[catalina_francisco]

OK, I am not insulted nor am I likely to be insulted by Pure. In discussions emotion run high and words can seem to be harsher than meant. By now Pure and myself have crossed blades on more than one occasion and yes I know the both of us have scored now and then some painful points against each other, but that is all part of life. I respect worthy opponents and those that fight with an open vizier, even if I hardly ever can agree with them.

To come back to your comments Pure, you are indeed a very observant person, noticing that I did not only quote pain as an example of sadism. Fear and control over another are certainly IMO part of the total mix.

You do seem to make an assumption that, correct me if I am wrong, comes down to not being afraid of the known. Although I am sure that applies to many things in life, I can tell you I know and have known quite a lot of persons very well that scared the living shit out of me. Sometimes the known is scary, for example like having to live through another 4 years of Bush mania that is a big fucking nightmare for me right now.

I just tried to clarify to what depths my mind can lower itself. Shame, repulsion, denial and self-delusion have been a major part of my life, and of many others I have known. IMHO it is a major issue for many PYL’s; many find it very difficult to accept their nature. I think, and in that I agree with AA, if I have read his comments correctly, that the right partner can be a catalyst for a PYL, making it possible for a PYL to explore depths, which would otherwise be too dangerous and also too scary. The danger always exists of course that the PYL will pass the point of no return.

Francisco.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Think we are gonna need em?

heh?