Defining Love

[midwestyankee]

Re: Re: Re: Another perspective on love

One of the reasons you are a wise man Yankee...

Thank you.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Re: Re: Re: Another perspective on love

One of the reasons you are a wise man Yankee...

One woman's wise man is another's wiseass

Hi Yank, I have nothing of any merit to contribute today so I just came to say happy Sunday

 

[Sappholovers]

A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

I agree so much with Cathleen.... In love, there can be surrender and sacrifice of self.... but this should not be a permanent condition.... I prefer a creative balance or reciprocity between self and other, a way of harmonizing the quest for personal independence (or liberty) and the quest for a more perfect union.

For me, this quest to balance independence and togetherness is similar to the quest to balance liberty and union and unity and diversity in the social sphere. In American culture, we no longer insist upon assimiliation under the ideal of the melting pot; we emphasize diversity under the ideal of the mosaic, the salad bowl, the gumbo pot. We want to find a way to maintain and emphasize difference while also recognizing similarity.

My own sense is that the best relationships do not involve a surrender of the self to the other, but the enlargement of the self thanks to the other. Or each partner surrenders to the ideal, the agreement, the covenant that the goal of the relationship is to collaborate on developing the individual strengths and abilities and happiness and wholeness of each person.

Jazz music offers one of the best models for understanding democracy and a good relationship: it depends on the ability of musicians to solo and to collaborate or combine or play off of each other. The performance will often give each instrument, each musician a chance to be highlighted, to stand out, and all the players must, especially in improvisation, take care to listen to each other, to work with each other, to figure out when and how to combine and synthesize and collaborate.

Another way for me to envision an ideal relationship is to say that the relationship between the lovers should be one in which both are teachers and both are learners rather than the familiar pattern among academics where you see professors marrying students: a relationship that tends to preserve the structure of authority of teacher to student (or of domination to submission).
I embrace the equality of a deep mutual respect between lovers.....and on the basis of this equality, there can be occcasions where each can take their turn being dominant or submissive, on top and on bottom, giving and taking, surrendering and receiving....returning afterwards to equality.

 

[midwestyankee]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Another perspective on love

One woman's wise man is another's wiseass

Hi Yank, I have nothing of any merit to contribute today so I just came to say happy Sunday

In RL i'ts been anything but...so getting a side-handed compliment and a happy greeting from a friend here helps a lot.

Happy Sunday to you too, GG.

PROUD TO BE A SMARTASS!!

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Another perspective on love

In RL i'ts been anything but...so getting a side-handed compliment and a happy greeting from a friend here helps a lot.

Happy Sunday to you too, GG.

PROUD TO BE A SMARTASS!!

Thanks Yank.....and WW's compliment was quite genuine so you can put that in the list of positives for the day

 

[midwestyankee]

Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

My own sense is that the best relationships do not involve a surrender of the self to the other, but the enlargement of the self thanks to the other. Or each partner surrenders to the ideal, the agreement, the covenant that the goal of the relationship is to collaborate on developing the individual strengths and abilities and happiness and wholeness of each person.

I am in complete agreement with your entire post, SL, but wanted to highlight this paragraph in particular. The best relationships generate growth in both parties. As there can be no growth in a relationship where one party is subsumed into the other, those relationships are doomed.

That said, all relationships cannot be about growth all the time. One must frequently meander among the roses and lilacs to fill the lungs with aromas of beauty.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Re: Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

That said, all relationships cannot be about growth all the time. One must frequently meander among the roses and lilacs to fill the lungs with aromas of beauty.

I couldn't agree with this more....it's like you read my mind!

 

[midwestyankee]

Re: Re: Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

I couldn't agree with this more....it's like you read my mind!

I'm glad you agree. Someone wiser than I in the way of relationships reminded me of this recently. I've been trying to follow this advice ever since.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

I'm glad you agree. Someone wiser than I in the way of relationships reminded me of this recently. I've been trying to follow this advice ever since.

It is a wise man who follows the advice of a wise friend.

 

[midwestyankee]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

It is a wise man who follows the advice of a wise friend.

And it is a fool who keeps only his own counsel.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

And it is a fool who keeps only his own counsel.

Touche, my friend

 

[Sappholovers]

Yes, gather ye rosebuds, etc.

This was an entry I made on "Challenge: Perfect Ten" thread, where you have to try to say something significant in ten words or less.....

So here was my attempt to articulate what mwYank and GGirl endorse in terms of being open--sensually, or with all of our senses-- to the moment...to joy in the here and now in whatever beautiful forms it can take......



Behold

The reciprocity
between
verbal and
sexual
intercourse....

and partake


Be crushed by

logos
and
eros

and kiss back


Be wanton with

words
cocks
cunts

Write/Fuck/Love
w/inspiration


Get mused with

Sappho
bosoms
Petrarch
pussy
Donne
dicks
Neruda



Fuck with

lubricant
imagination
vibrators
music
champagne
fantasies
fingers
abandon


Love with

openness
listening
confessions
acceptance
forgiveness
caritas
cooking
abandon


Embrace

metaphor
joy
jacarandas
caritas
ocean
gardens
kindness
kids
literotica

__________________

 

[midwestyankee]

Sappholovers, it has been a long hard day in RL, and I thank you deeply for these marvelous contributions. I applaud you for your thoughts and your expression of them.

 

[JenniferMidnight]

Sappholovers,
I love this as a Thread…presenting the first words from each of your stanzas and have people write down what thoughts pour out of them when these words are thrown at them. I believe they are quite mind fetching and would generate some stimulating reading.

Behold
Be crushed by
Be wanton with
Get mused with
Fuck With
Love With
Embrace

 

[midwestyankee]

Sappholovers,
I love this as a Thread…presenting the first words from each of your stanzas and have people write down what thoughts pour out of them when these words are thrown at them. I believe they are quite mind fetching and would generate some stimulating reading.

Behold
Be crushed by
Be wanton with
Get mused with
Fuck With
Love With
Embrace

Good idea:

Behold...she smiles with me

Be crushed by... her kisses

Get mused with...her dreams

Fuck with...abandon

Love with...attention

Embrace...the flowers that bloom today

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

Jazz music offers one of the best models for understanding democracy and a good relationship: it depends on the ability of musicians to solo and to collaborate or combine or play off of each other. The performance will often give each instrument, each musician a chance to be highlighted, to stand out, and all the players must, especially in improvisation, take care to listen to each other, to work with each other, to figure out when and how to combine and synthesize and collaborate.

This passage speaks to me. It is clear and concise and the connection is absolute. It is the perfect example.

But.......as seems to be the case more often than not when I read this thread, I ask myself why. Why define it? Love is an emotion devoid of logic. Does it require definition in order to be real? Does it get better when you try to give it finite parameters?

Why can't it just be? Does it not lose some of the mystery and joy in the defining? What is the need to analyze it? Is there gain in understanding it?

Love is a powerful wave. Why not just ride it? Emerse yourself in it and let it flow. Don't think about it, just feel it. It is in the mystery of its marvel that joy is brought. It is in the loss of logic that it gains its power. Celebrate it, feel it, and enjoy it.

 

[DLL]

[

 

[midwestyankee]

Re: Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

This passage speaks to me. It is clear and concise and the connection is absolute. It is the perfect example.

But.......as seems to be the case more often than not when I read this thread, I ask myself why. Why define it? Love is an emotion devoid of logic. Does it require definition in order to be real? Does it get better when you try to give it finite parameters?

Why can't it just be? Does it not lose some of the mystery and joy in the defining? What is the need to analyze it? Is there gain in understanding it?

Love is a powerful wave. Why not just ride it? Emerse yourself in it and let it flow. Don't think about it, just feel it. It is in the mystery of its marvel that joy is brought. It is in the loss of logic that it gains its power. Celebrate it, feel it, and enjoy it.

To paraphrase: I analyse, therefore I am.

Another way to think of this is that in trying to discover what we mean by love, we teach ourselves how to do it better. And many of us can benefit from that.

 

[MindFire]

Midwest Yankee and DLL and Ammo. hugs

I see nothing has been resolved in here yet.
I do admire the tenacity of the Posters..

 

[69forever]

Defining Love....

When one becomes two again, because of self-doubt, and the second one waits, patiently faithful, for his partner to catch up.

True love.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Re: Re: Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

To paraphrase: I analyse, therefore I am.

Another way to think of this is that in trying to discover what we mean by love, we teach ourselves how to do it better. And many of us can benefit from that.

I have to disagree with you friend. I think you can learn how to enjoy love, how to participate more fully in the fruits of love, and how to accept love more willingly. I do not think you can control when love comes or how it manifests itself, only how you react to it.

If it gives you comfort to analyze it, go for it. I prefer to just enjoy the gift of it when it comes my way.

 

[midwestyankee]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

I have to disagree with you friend. I think you can learn how to enjoy love, how to participate more fully in the fruits of love, and how to accept love more willingly. I do not think you can control when love comes or how it manifests itself, only how you react to it.

If it gives you comfort to analyze it, go for it. I prefer to just enjoy the gift of it when it comes my way.

At first I was going to disagree with you, friend (thought gently). What I said was that in the exercise of thinking about love we might learn to love better. The ability to love has nothing to do with when it strikes our lives.

In your last sentence you agreed with me: what we can control is how we react to love. When love comes our way, it is up to us to love back and do it well. If we stumble or love ineptly we can lose it. If we love ineptly we may never find a way to grow the love to its fullest potential. If we love ineptly we may never draw our beloved close enough to play that beautiful pairs jazz you spoke of earlier when replying to Sappholover's post.

For how can one improvise with a beloved without the ability to love well? Love, as an action of the will, does not happen by accident. It is a conscious extension of the self toward another. Without that extension, we have only lust or "puppy love" but not love in its deepest and finest form. Then, and only then, do we make that eternal music.

 

[Cathleen]

All this talk of jazz is leaving me so SF!!! I'm pulling out my Larry Carlton CDs and hitting repeat on Sleepwalker..... I think its the most sensual piece of music and now reminds me of that collaboration of love.

 

[GiveawayGirl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A creative reciprocity between self and other, independence and union

In your last sentence you agreed with me: what we can control is how we react to love. When love comes our way, it is up to us to love back and do it well. If we stumble or love ineptly we can lose it. If we love ineptly we may never find a way to grow the love to its fullest potential. If we love ineptly we may never draw our beloved close enough to play that beautiful pairs jazz you spoke of earlier when replying to Sappholover's post.

All of which is a definition of action and reaction to love, not love itself.

 

[~Dream~]

I hope everyone doesnt mind if I post these next 2 poems...as my way of defining love for today ...

Drift away with Love

What I have within my heart is something
That I just can't explain...
It's something that is not simple to obtain
It's called perpetual love,
And it's a rare gift...
Send to me from heaven above
Since you...
Have taken possession of my soul.
It's a love deep inside me
That is bright as the stars
Cause is gazing over you and me,
So please...
Drift away within this love of mine,
A place where there is safety
And so much love to behold,
A place that will keep you warm and embrace
That will make you feel whole,
Were you will feel electrifying emotions
That will stimulate pure ecstasy,
Lots of romantic affections
And feelings of ravishing delights,
Aspirations of a passionate appetite.
This is the pathway to my heart
And belongs to only you,
Cause I have seen a perfect light
That shines from your heart
And it radiates...
And it has pierced the heart of me,
As when you hold me in your loving arms,
Our hearts beat as one
Just as the breathing of our souls.