closed Thread

[icanhelp1]

What is acceptable is that Israel has a right to respond to the provocation. They can and should work to prevent civilian deaths and should be criticized for not doing so.

But Hamas putting civilians in harm's way is not Israels fault

Hamas is dictating the rules of engagement. Israel is giving Palestinians fair warnings prior to a military strike. If a valued Hamas commander is identified intel is a perishable commodity and striking and eradicating that target is paramount. The question that no one asks is why should IDF soldiers waste their lives trying to avoid Palestinian casualties when Hamas doesn’t care. Until Iran pays a significant price for the shit they’re causing this is nothing more than shoveling shit against the tide.

 

[ll74]

Hamas is dictating the rules of engagement. Israel is giving Palestinians fair warnings prior to a military strike. If a valued Hamas commander is identified intel is a perishable commodity and striking and eradicating that target is paramount. The question that no one asks is why should IDF soldiers waste their lives trying to avoid Palestinian casualties when Hamas doesn’t care. Until Iran pays a significant price for the shit they’re causing this is nothing more than shoveling shit against the tide.

If you're asking that question, you're part of the problem. Everyone should care about civilian lives. Anything less is terrorism....and that's the whole argument here. Valuing human lives (no matter which "side" they're on) is what separates people committing terrorism and people working to defend.

 

[icanhelp1]

If you're asking that question, you're part of the problem. Everyone should care about civilian lives. Anything less is terrorism....and that's the whole argument here. Valuing human lives (no matter which "side" they're on) is what separates people committing terrorism and people working to defend.

Your pie in the sky bullshit is inaccurate and inappropriate. If a soldier is in a firefight with an enemy that uses human shields you attempt to avoid civilian casualties but if a machine gun is shooting at you through a civilian shield all bets are off. You are no good to anyone dead. Hamas is playing on western values to kill you, war is hell for a reason.

 

[Noor]

No way have I ever said that.

Let me break it down as simple as I can.

What Hamas did was revolting and I have no problem with them dying as a result of that act.

However...innocent people should not have to sacrifice their lives.

A bomb...directed to kill one...two...ten Hamas militants...that ALSO kills 50...hundred...women and children is not OK

People that believe that is acceptable...need to grow balls and call it what it is...that they believe 100 innocent Palestinian lives has less merit than any one Israeli life and is a worthy tradeoff to kill a couple Hamas militants

Why do I care? Because we...and the World sees it...are siding with acts of war crimes...and the next generation or terrorists...will remember and attack us. And the cycle continues

Is that simple enough?

First of all this is war, a declared war, started by Hamas which is the governing body of Gaza.
Hamas broke a cease fire by slaughtering 1400 people is Israel on Oct 7 and not just Israelis. There is video from the terrorists on GoPro cams floating about the internet now if you have The stomach to watch monsters torture innocent civilians in unimaginable ways at least until now.
Civilians historically have always gotten caught in the cross fire when they are close to military targets. This is not a war crime. Since Oct 7 Hamas has been shooting missles at Israel in general even though they are not aiming for military targets. This started before Israel started fighting back. Luckily Israelis have shelters for such attacks.
The disadvantage the Gazans have is a lack of bomb shelters. When asked in an interview the other day about the tunnels and why there were no shelters for Gazans, Hamas spokesman said that the tunnels were to protect Hamas and that since Gazans were refugees ( some since 1948 and this is debatable), their safety was of no concern to or responsibility of Hamas and that the United Nations was responsible for them. Unfortunately although morally reprehensible , this probably isn’t a war crime either.

 

[ll74]

Your pie in the sky bullshit is inaccurate and inappropriate. If a soldier is in a firefight with an enemy that uses human shields you attempt to avoid civilian casualties but if a machine gun is shooting at you through a civilian shield all bets are off. You are no good to anyone dead. Hamas is playing on western values to kill you, war is hell for a reason.

Yes, I get that you would shoot through the civilian without question. And that sorta bullshit is part of the issue here.

I put a ton of blame on Hamas. Perhaps you've seen my arguments with Dribs.... but Hamas using Human shields does not absolve responsibilities of Israel to avoid civilian death.

 

[Noor]

Calling for genocide now, are you? Israel deserves to face a multi-front conflict, and defeat. Hezbollah has beaten Israel before, and more than once. Biden and his pathetic administration deserve the same, bogged down in that proxy war in Ukraine against Russia, and now staggered with Israel, still spending billions of $$$$$ on this madness.

Speaking of death cults, can you explain why the US authorities fund them, going back to the Mujahideen (including a certain Osama bin Laden) against the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 1980s? A section of the Mujahideen later became the Taliban, by the way. Why are the US still in Syria? Wasting all our taxes, to the tune of billions and billions of $$$$$, on this warmongering nonsense, while people struggle in the US. Enough is enough!

Israel would not be still standing if hezbolkah had beaten them.
They won the 6th day war against all of their neighboring countries, the Yom Kippur war and many other skirmishes.
Jews has out survived many other peoples like the ancient Greeks , Roman, and multiple other great civilizations, and evil forces such as Hitler and Stalin. I see no reason why they will not continue.

 

[icanhelp1]

Yes, I get that you would shoot through the civilian without question. And that sorta bullshit is part of the issue here.

I put a ton of blame on Hamas. Perhaps you've seen my arguments with Dribs.... but Hamas using Human shields does not absolve responsibilities of Israel to avoid civilian death.

No, it’s not without question, it’s a horrible situation to be in. You always muddy the waters with “ responsible to avoid civilian casualties “ if you can you do. When one side is arbitrarily launching missiles to kill innocent civilians the sooner you eliminate that threat the better everyone is. If they’re launching indiscriminately to purposely kill your people then you owe it to your people to take out that threat. If they warn people to get out they did their ethical part. In Vietnam the VC sometimes strapped grenades to children playing on western values. A grenade can kill you whether from the VC or a child, shooting that child is not a war crime.

 

[Noor]

I totally agree with that grieving Gazan mother, this is because of “those Hamas dogs.”
I believe the only way to get a ceasefire of sorts is if Hamas releases the hostages, stops lobbing missiles at Israel and steps down from government.
Once that is done, only those directly involved with the Oct 7 attack need worry. Those that want to live should probably turn themselves in, because based on past atrocities like on Munich Olympics, they will be tracked down to wherever and eliminated.

 

[ll74]

No, it’s not without question, it’s a horrible situation to be in. You always muddy the waters with “ responsible to avoid civilian casualties “ if you can you do. When one side is arbitrarily launching missiles to kill innocent civilians the sooner you eliminate that threat the better everyone is. If they’re launching indiscriminately to purposely kill your people then you owe it to your people to take out that threat. If they warn people to get out they did their ethical part. In Vietnam the VC sometimes strapped grenades to children playing on wester values. A grenade can kill you whether from the VC or a child, shooting that child is not a war crime.

It's not muddying waters. It's holding war criminals accountable and making sure that human beings aren't unnecessarily put in harm's way. It's the reason we hold Israel, who are not terrorists, to a higher standard than Hamas, who is.

And it's why we should not conflate Hamas with all Palestinians.

You should take more care of your words.

I absolutely despise when people say "it's Israel's fault" without any qualifiers, but I side with them more because of the above.

 

[John_von_Neumann]

The "Palestinians" do not exist as a unique race, religious, linguistic, or cultural entity. For that reason 'genocide' is a definition that is misapplied. They are a political construct that is unified by one guiding doctrine, Kill the Jews. They have demonstrated their adherence to that doctrine time and time again in word and deed. ANY GROUP that is the focal point of such a doctrine can have but one response.............eliminate the threat.

Speaking of making the world a better place, what's your life expectancy these days, Ish?

 

[TrailerHitch]

Yes, I get that you would shoot through the civilian without question. And that sorta bullshit is part of the issue here.

I put a ton of blame on Hamas. Perhaps you've seen my arguments with Dribs.... but Hamas using Human shields does not absolve responsibilities of Israel to avoid civilian death.

So let me be clear. You are on patrol with your platoon, and a hamas machine gun opens up on you. Your guys are caught out in the open and getting cut down with no cover available. Your choices are to watch them die or to shoot through the human shield to kill the terrorist firing the machine gun. My choice is obvious, yours not so much apparently, and in the end you will die and most of my guys will survive and so will I. Is it horrific that it has to be done? Of course. But I am not the coward hiding behind civilians, they are.

 

[icanhelp1]

It's not muddying waters. It's holding war criminals accountable and making sure that human beings aren't unnecessarily put in harm's way. It's the reason we hold Israel, who are not terrorists, to a higher standard than Hamas, who is.

And it's why we should not conflate Hamas with all Palestinians.

You should take more care of your words.

I absolutely despise when people say "it's Israel's fault" without any qualifiers, but I side with them more because of the above.

Hamas is not just engaging IDF, they’re lobbing missiles at innocent Israeli citizens. Most Palestinians are out of the conflict. Gaza city is the center of combat, worst kind* CQC * You and Dribble argue back and forth about killing innocent civilians, dribble accusations of war crimes where only one side is held accountable, but neither of you have an answer as to how to avoid civilian casualties when involved in an asymmetrical war. There are no rules to this type of barbarism. Kinetic pressure on Hamas needs to continue relentlessly till Hamas is destroyed. I’m throwing up in my mouth having to Agree with Hillary Clinton * NO CEASE FIRE * but her statement is quickly irradiated by this idiot;

 

[ll74]

So let me be clear. You are on patrol with your platoon, and a hamas machine gun opens up on you. Your guys are caught out in the open and getting cut down with no cover available. Your choices are to watch them die or to shoot through the human shield to kill the terrorist firing the machine gun. My choice is obvious, yours not so much apparently, and in the end you will die and most of my guys will survive and so will I. Is it horrific that it has to be done? Of course. But I am not the coward hiding behind civilians, they are.

I'm not truly sure what you're attempting to say here. It's difficult to prevent civilian casualties, but I expect that the fighters do everything they can to avoid it. And I expect leadership to do everything they can to prevent it all the way up and down their decisions. Anything less is unacceptable.

And this is with full admission that Hamas doesn't give a shit about that.....which is why Israel is criticized more. The adults in the room always are.

 

[ll74]

Hamas is not just engaging IDF, they’re lobbing missiles at innocent Israeli citizens. Most Palestinians are out of the conflict. Gaza city is the center of combat, worst kind* CQC * You and Dribble argue back and forth about killing innocent civilians, dribble accusations of war crimes where only one side is held accountable, but neither of you have an answer as to how to avoid civilian casualties when involved in an asymmetrical war. There are no rules to this type of barbarism. Kinetic pressure on Hamas needs to continue relentlessly till Hamas is destroyed. I’m throwing up in my mouth having to Agree with Hillary Clinton * NO CEASE FIRE * but her statement is quickly irradiated by this idiot;

Yes, I disagree with Dribs on his indiscriminate blame of Israel as you've seen. But they deserve criticism...as does anyone who blanketly wants to put blame on all Palestinians.

I don't expect complete avoidance or all civilians. I don't support a complete ceasefire either....but a temporary one is tenable if it gets more civilians clear.....it's a tough call....as I mentioned in my last comment - I expect the adults in the room to make as.much effort as possible to avoid killing innocent people.

 

[TrailerHitch]

I'm not truly sure what you're attempting to say here. It's difficult to prevent civilian casualties, but I expect that the fighters do everything they can to avoid it. And I expect leadership to do everything they can to prevent it all the way up and down their decisions. Anything less is unacceptable.

And this is with full admission that Hamas doesn't give a shit about that.....which is why Israel is criticized more. The adults in the room always are.

So again, you would do nothing, let all of your guys die, including yourself. Well at least you'll die with your morals intact. I would prefer my guys to live as well as myself. Is it a shitty situation? Of course. But if you want to live you do what has to be done.

 

[RobDownSouth]

The "Palestinians" do not exist as a unique race, religious, linguistic, or cultural entity. For that reason 'genocide' is a definition that is misapplied. They are a political construct that is unified by one guiding doctrine, Kill the Jews. They have demonstrated their adherence to that doctrine time and time again in word and deed. ANY GROUP that is the focal point of such a doctrine can have but one response.............eliminate the threat.

Oh look....Ishmael is cornered once again. So what does he do? He does what he always does, blathering "that...That...THAT'S DIFFERENT!"

To summarize:

• "Good" Israelis killed: WAR CRIME!
• "Bad" Palestinians killed: NOTHING TO SEE HEAR CITIZEN. MOVE ALONG!

 

[Dribble]

Over 70 UN humanitarian staff members have been murdered by Israeli bombing missions. But if you listen to the IDF talk ..they were just in the way and an unfortunate consequence of war.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Oh look....Ishmael is cornered once again. So what does he do? He does what he always does, blathering "that...That...THAT'S DIFFERENT!"

To summarize:

• "Good" Israelis killed: WAR CRIME!
• "Bad" Palestinians killed: NOTHING TO SEE HEAR CITIZEN. MOVE ALONG!

The clear difference though is the Israelis are not hiding behind their civilian citizens. Hamas is purposely using Palestinian civilians as human shields. They are purposely having their citizens killed to protect their cowardly actions.

 

[ll74]

So again, you would do nothing, let all of your guys die, including yourself. Well at least you'll die with your morals intact. I would prefer my guys to live as well as myself. Is it a shitty situation? Of course. But if you want to live you do what has to be done.

What part of "do everything you can to prevent civilian deaths" is difficult for you to understand? I would do that.

 

[TrailerHitch]

What part of "do everything you can to prevent civilian deaths" is difficult for you to understand? I would do that.

And once again you skirt the original premise. Would you kill the machine gunner, even if it meant killing human shield civilians or let your platoon be massacred. Answer it straight up instead of dancing and singing.

 

[ll74]

And once again you skirt the original premise. Would you kill the machine gunner, even if it meant killing human shield civilians or let your platoon be massacred. Answer it straight up instead of dancing and singing.

Fuck off. Throw up a stupid scenario as if my answer even matters.

I told you my position.

Your hypothetical is no less of an oversimplication than the others I've argued with earlier.

 

[TrailerHitch]

Fuck off. Throw up a stupid scenario as if my answer even matters.

I told you my position.

Your hypothetical is no less of an oversimplication than the others I've argued with earlier.

No, you didn't answer, you did what you always do you give some vague non-committal nothing reply.

I know exactly what I would do and had no problem saying it.

 

[ll74]

No, you didn't answer, you did what you always do you give some vague non-committal nothing reply.

I know exactly what I would do and had no problem saying it.

Got it.

Your oversimplification is noted. There is never a simple scenario where it is obvious what you need to do....because it's war.

I'm sure the Israelis will call you for military advice

 

[RobDownSouth]

Interesting Washington Post Editorial:

The closer you look, the more Netanyahu resembles Trump​

LINK (non-paywall version)

How do you say "I take no responsibility for this. None!" in Hebrew?

 

[TrailerHitch]

Got it.

Your oversimplification is noted.

I'm sure the Israelis will call you for military advice

Got it, your nutless inability to answer a scenario question tells me plenty about you.

No oversimplification, it's a real world possibility, kind of like when US troops were not allowed to fire into Mosques even when the enemy was shooting at them from inside them.

Since they have won every war they have ever been in as a country I'm sure they can take care of themselves without out the hand wringing and crying towels that have appeared in this topic.