Circumcision Revisited

weed

In a moment of nostalgia
Joined
Apr 10, 2002
Posts
11,237
I couldn't resist responding to some issues that were brought up in Spinaroonies Good News thread yesterday.

Some food for thought for those who may some day have to make this decision for their baby boy some day.

Pain is a big issue in neonatal/developmental psychology these days. It's a blossoming area that is only now just getting it's due.

For a long time it was maintained that neonates and premies did not have the capacity for pain. We know now that is not true. In fact, physiological responses to pain are often greater than that in adults though shorter lived. Because pain is such a subjective thing to the observer and babes cannot be asked to score their pain on a scale of 1 - 10 pain scales have been developed. Although they try to be objective even they have many downfalls.

Pain in babes is not only reflected by behavior changes but by cardiovascular and hormonal changes. It is measured through vital signs, oxygen saturations and facial expressions. The earlier the babe the less credit is given to facial expressions.

A word about a babes response to pain and stimuli. Not all respond with crying. Some will shutdown. That is stare or go to sleep. It's a withdrawal mechanism. Hiccups can also be a sign of disorganization caused by overstimulation and pain though not always.

Some people think that giving them a pacifier takes care of the pain. Not true. The physiological parameters stay altered. Sucrose has been shown to be helpful though.

We are only beginning to understand the longterm affects of pain on babies. Hopefully the least parents and hospital staff can do for circs in the first couple of days is lots of love, minimal stimulation and round the clock tylenol. Some docs still don't order in tylenol post-circ.

I was surprized at the age of this article from '87. There has been more since then but I don't have access to it here.

The persistence of specific behavioral changes after circumcision in neonates implies the presence of memory. In the short term, these behavioral changes may disrupt the adaptation of newborn infants to their postnatal environment,174-176 the development of parent-infant bonding, and feeding schedules.182,183 In the long term, painful experiences in neonates could possibly lead to psychological sequelae,22 since several workers have shown that newborns may have a much greater capacity for memory than was previously thought.183-186

Early painful experiences may be stored in the phylogenically old "procedural memory," which is not accessible to conscious recall.182,183,194 Although Janov195 and Holden196 have collected clinical data that they claim indicate that adult neuroses or psychosomatic illnesses may have their origins in painful memories acquired during infancy or even neonatal life, their findings have not been substantiated or widely accepted by other workers.

http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/

Beyond pain the incidence of complications from circumcisions ranges from 0.2-10%. These are just estimates as there is no system for reporting and tracking this. One estimate for lifelong alterations as a result are about 1%. It's estimated that about 2% of all circs become infected. Lifelong alterations can range from chordee or bowing (a bend that I understand is quite painful with an erection), cheloids/scarring, alterations in the meatus (the opening) including altered placement or obstruction, cysts and loss of penis. Mostly I've seen bleeding, uneven cuts (which can lead to problems of bowing or chordee later) and excessive cuts requiring stitches (higher risk of scarring later). Fortunately rare there have been occasional deaths related to circs. I have found most physicians gloss over potential complications pretty quickly when getting consents for circs.

About 50-60% of all males born in the US are now circ'd making the "so they look like the other boys in the locker room" reason invalid.

Reasons for having a circ done include decreased risks for UTI's, penile cancer and STDs. Uncircumsized babies do get more UTIs but their overall risk is quite low at about 1%. Uncircumsized males are about three times more likely to get penile cancer but over all only 10 males out of 1 million men will get it. Uncircumsized males do have a higher STD rate but this has been shown to be preventable with good hygiene (not to mention a condom).

Then we come to sexuality. This was the biggest thing I did not want to take away from my boys. In infant circumcision the foreskin is removed from the glans prematurely. This naturally happens in most boys by age 5 but may take longer in some. The exposed glans then becomes desensitized. The foreskin itself is very sensitive. It also allows for the full extension of the penis during erection. There is also increased lubrication when the foreskin is present.

The bottom line is it's the parents decision. Hopefully they truly know all the pros and cons. Sure, in most males it might not make a huge dif whether he's circ'd or not but why risk complication? And just because a male thinks that their childhood circ hasn't made them different, how do they really know?
 
oops

forgot a couple problems that may come up in the uncirc'd male.

Phimosis. When the foreskin can't be retracted back over the glans. Best prevented by teaching a 4-5 year old child to retract and clean under his foreskin.

Balanitis or irritation of the glans. Again. Cleanliness is your best prevention. This occurs in circ'd males as well.
 
That's better than nothing. Lasts about ten minutes.

Tylenol?
 
Circumcision: Examine the pros and cons for the procedure, and then make your own, informed decision. Don't walk into anything uninformed or underprepared. Have it done, or don't. But make your own choice.

Weed, you've made a great search for cons...you've concentrated on negativity. Have you used any of that effort to finding out why circumcisions are a good thing? Just curious.
 
Circumcision without a clear and pressing medical reason is barbaric. Plain and simple.

No, doing it just so he's like his dad isn't on. What god demands that you mutilate your children? There is no advantage to circumcision. You just swap some potential problems for other potential problems.

Such behaviour is completely unacceptable. Would female circumcision (still practiced, but not nearly as widely or openly) where the clitoris is removed be considered accpetable? No.
 
Bob_Bytchin said:
Circumcision: Examine the pros and cons for the procedure, and then make your own, informed decision. Don't walk into anything uninformed or underprepared. Have it done, or don't. But make your own choice.

Weed, you've made a great search for cons...you've concentrated on negativity. Have you used any of that effort to finding out why circumcisions are a good thing? Just curious.

I tried to be objective.

Feel free to add your thoughts.:D
 
Emerald_eyed said:
every 4 hoursdaytime, every 6 at night


Youngest they recommended liquid advil.

Good to hear you were educated. I bet it helped with the pain.
 
I wasn't, and i've never had any problems, if i get blessed with a son sometime down the road, he wont be either.

I dont think i'd ever WANT to be cut...<shudder>
 
weed said:
<snip>
Then we come to sexuality. This was the biggest thing I did not want to take away from my boys. In infant circumcision the foreskin is removed from the glans prematurely. This naturally happens in most boys by age 5 but may take longer in some. The exposed glans then becomes desensitized. The foreskin itself is very sensitive. It also allows for the full extension of the penis during erection. There is also increased lubrication when the foreskin is present.

And just because a male thinks that their childhood circ hasn't made them different, how do they really know?

Weed,

Considering the amount of facts, research and statistics in your post, I was wondering if the above paragraph is based on studies or is it your own hypothesis that circumcision plays a negative role on sexuality?

And just because a male thinks that their lack of a childhood circ hasn't made them different, how do they really know?
 
To all you smegma proud , yeast infection , UTI givers because you can't keep your shit clean.... What ever.. Cut it and cut it very time. Pain and suffering is part of life , might as well learn it off the bat..
 
loveyamon said:
To all you smegma proud , yeast infection , UTI givers because you can't keep your shit clean.... What ever.. Cut it and cut it very time. Pain and suffering is part of life , might as well learn it off the bat..


Who dosent keep themselves clean? honestly...i shower twice a day, i clean the unti twice a day.
 
I certain I read somwhere that circumcision became widespread in the early 20th century as a masturbation preventative (remember; this was way the hell back when homosexuals were thought to be mentally defective and anesthetic was still somewhat uncommon).
 
Bob_Bytchin said:
Have you used any of that effort to finding out why circumcisions are a good thing? Just curious.


The baby gets sent home from the hospital in a nifty "My Cord Isn't the Only Thing That Got Cut" T-shirt.
 
MunchinMark said:
Circumcision without a clear and pressing medical reason is barbaric. Plain and simple.

No, doing it just so he's like his dad isn't on. What god demands that you mutilate your children? There is no advantage to circumcision. You just swap some potential problems for other potential problems.

Such behaviour is completely unacceptable. Would female circumcision (still practiced, but not nearly as widely or openly) where the clitoris is removed be considered accpetable? No.

What about body piercing? Tattoos? Cosmetic surgery?

Circumcision is not at all barbaric. I went to a Briss last month and the medical procedure took about 1 minute and the baby stopped crying even before he was finished.

If and when I have boys, they will most certainly be circumsized.
 
Eagle70 said:
Who dosent keep themselves clean? honestly...i shower twice a day, i clean the unti twice a day.

I'm happy for ya... I couldn't imagine showering twice a day. Then again I don't have to worry about shit growing in my forskin either.... Ewwwww
 
Re: Re: Circumcision Revisited

zipman7 said:
Weed,

Considering the amount of facts, research and statistics in your post, I was wondering if the above paragraph is based on studies or is it your own hypothesis that circumcision plays a negative role on sexuality?

And just because a male thinks that their lack of a childhood circ hasn't made them different, how do they really know?

It's probably the most subjective information I've read about circs but it certainly makes sense that exposed tissue becomes desensitized.

The presence of nerve tissue in the foreskin is well documented. The sensitivity of it is also well documented although it is for the most part anecdoctal.

About the only way I can think of to quantify it would be to study twin males, one circ'd at birth and one not, and evaluate the differences in sensitivity, performance and overall experience between them. Even that would be somewhat subjective.

I'd love to hear from males circumsized later in life and what differences in sexuality the circ made to them. It wouldn't be the same though as the exposure of the infants gland prior to mother nature's readiness.

I know males circ'd later in life often describe it as a horrible experience. I wonder why we think it's any less horrible for an infant?
 
loveyamon said:
I'm happy for ya... I couldn't imagine showering twice a day. Then again I don't have to worry about shit growing in my forskin either.... Ewwwww

Women would gather goodies in their folds if they didn't shower regularly also.
 
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