Church. Why?

[Tryharder62]

What I find most offensive about Christianity is that it places value on faith. You can't get more wrongheaded than that. Faith is a vice, not a virtue.

We don't value faith we find value in the One we have faith in.

 

[butters]

it's been my experience that a whole lot of value is placed in 'faith'

the whole doubting thomas tale is based on the value placed on believing that which is asserted without evidence.

people have too often been ostracised from their communities for not having 'the faith', for being a non-believe; though still welcomed by some in the hope that they might recover their faith (and pitied for having lost the only path to reach 'heaven'), more often it's a case of a general disassociation between those who have faith and those without it.

as the ONLY path to heaven in their eyes, i would say there's an inordinate amount of value placed on faith by the religious amongst us. even though i was brought up with religion, i was also taught i had a mind and to question things was a path to learning and growing. having said that, when it got to a point where mum said "because I SAID SO!", i knew better than to keep questioning

 

[pecksniff]

We don't value faith we find value in the One we have faith in.

That ain't the impression I get from Jesus: "Believe not, and thou shalt be damned."

 

[colddiesel]

The unnecessary god

The concept of any god ( Allah, Shiva, Mazda, Yaweh, God, The Rainbow Serpent, et al) is not in principle, good or bad, or anywhere on that spectrum. The concept of any god is just unnecessary.

The universe came into being, will live and eventually die without the slightest impact from this notion.

 

[Lazaran]

.
So weird......

No female-centric major religion or school of philosophy.

Could male dominated control of writing and printing techniques have anything to do with the lack of female representation in the "God" genre???

Hmmmm

 

[pecksniff]

.
So weird......

No female-centric major religion or school of philosophy.

Could male dominated control of writing and printing techniques have anything to do with the lack of female representation in the "God" genre???

Hmmmm

More likely it is because in most literate cultures worldwide before the 19th Century, women were not educated, and if they were intelligent they were careful to hide the fact.

 

[pecksniff]

I thought I was giving the Christian perspective. Ok, tell me what happens.

You wake up in a coffin-sized drawer with tubes coming out of you. That is, if you took the red pill.

 

[With_David_Bowie]

The whole magical fantasy figure bit makes no sense to me. How do people fall so far as to believe in such silliness?

Because they can believe in the Patriots not being cunts.

 

[ishtat]

At the time of our death we will get what we want. We don't have to do what anyone else wants us to do. If you believe in God and what Jesus did on the cross you can be with him. If you don't believe in God, you don't have to be with him. If you don't believe in heaven or hell why worry.

This is not a Christian idea. The concept of Heaven and Hell and a last Judgement was pinched from the Zoroastrians and Hindus, probably about 1,000 years before JC. The Zoroastrians (who called their God Ahura Mazda) said that dead souls had to cross the Chinvat bridge -Narrow for sinners broad for the good guys - below was the fires of hell. In Hinduism Yama guards a similar access to Hell/Heaven.

The idea of Heaven/Hell and a last judgement was expanded and clarified in Judaism when the Jews were exiled to Babylon in 586BC - thence to Christianity.

The Moslems in describing Al-Sirat and Yawm ad-Din (Last Judgement) adopted the original concept almost unchanged from the Zoroastrians.

I find it interesting that at least 5 significant religions claim their last Judgement and the various characters in attendance is the right one when they all very clearly have the same origins in primitive Persian and Vedic monotheism.

 

[BBCfan]

This is not a Christian idea. The concept of Heaven and Hell and a last Judgement was pinched from the Zoroastrians and Hindus, probably about 1,000 years before JC. The Zoroastrians (who called their God Ahura Mazda) said that dead souls had to cross the Chinvat bridge -Narrow for sinners broad for the good guys - below was the fires of hell. In Hinduism Yama guards a similar access to Hell/Heaven.

The idea of Heaven/Hell and a last judgement was expanded and clarified in Judaism when the Jews were exiled to Babylon in 586BC - thence to Christianity.

The Moslems in describing Al-Sirat and Yawm ad-Din (Last Judgement) adopted the original concept almost unchanged from the Zoroastrians.

I find it interesting that at least 5 significant religions claim their last Judgement and the various characters in attendance is the right one when they all very clearly have the same origins in primitive Persian and Vedic monotheism.

What took me years to research as a young man when cutting ties from the 2nd most evil cult in the world (Christianity), you summed up extremely well in a few paragraphs.
Well done!!!
If I remember correctly Zoroastrianism was the first monotheistic religion?

 

[pecksniff]

What took me years to research as a young man when cutting ties from the 2nd most evil cult in the world (Christianity), you summed up extremely well in a few paragraphs.
Well done!!!
If I remember correctly Zoroastrianism was the first monotheistic religion?

The Jews/Israelites might have had that idea first, although it's uncertain just how monotheistic they were to start with. And then there was Pharoah Akhenaten's monotheism focused on Aten the solar disc.

 

[stickygirl]

All these fine words and no mention of dolphins and their beliefs
I've long believed in the power of cod, the existence of sole and the mysteries of halibut. Cetasceans have a whale of a time

 

[pecksniff]

All these fine words and no mention of dolphins and their beliefs
I've long believed in the power of cod, the existence of sole and the mysteries of halibut. Cetasceans have a whale of a time

Scientists have finally decoded their language, but it turns out all they're ever saying is, "I'm going for a swim today!"

 

[Tryharder62]

This is not a Christian idea. The concept of Heaven and Hell and a last Judgement was pinched from the Zoroastrians and Hindus, probably about 1,000 years before JC. The Zoroastrians (who called their God Ahura Mazda) said that dead souls had to cross the Chinvat bridge -Narrow for sinners broad for the good guys - below was the fires of hell. In Hinduism Yama guards a similar access to Hell/Heaven.

The idea of Heaven/Hell and a last judgement was expanded and clarified in Judaism when the Jews were exiled to Babylon in 586BC - thence to Christianity.

The Moslems in describing Al-Sirat and Yawm ad-Din (Last Judgement) adopted the original concept almost unchanged from the Zoroastrians.

I find it interesting that at least 5 significant religions claim their last Judgement and the various characters in attendance is the right one when they all very clearly have the same origins in primitive Persian and Vedic monotheism.

Christianity believes in the Hebrew Bible like the Jewish people. The prophecy of a coming Messiah begins very early in the texts. The big difference between Judism and Christianity is they believe the Messiah has not come yet, so they live under the law, and Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled the law. The prophecies that are listed in the Old Testament match Jesus perfectly.

 

[pecksniff]

The prophecies that are listed in the Old Testament match Jesus perfectly.

The Gospel writers really had to stretch to make that fit. For instance, just to make Jesus born in Bethlehem as prophesied, which he certainly wasn't, Luke says he was born during the reign of Herod the Great and during a Roman census, which is impossible -- the first Roman census of Judea was not taken until ten years after Herod's death. It would not have been taken while he lived, because the main purpose of the census was to facilitate tax collection, and the Romans did not directly tax the people of their client kingdoms, only of their own provinces. Also, the Romans certainly never required people to travel to an ancestral home town to register -- you registered where you would be paying your taxes, i.e., where you lived at present.

 

[Lazaran]

Christianity believes in the Hebrew Bible like the Jewish people. The prophecy of a coming Messiah begins very early in the texts. The big difference between Judism and Christianity is they believe the Messiah has not come yet, so they live under the law, and Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled the law. The prophecies that are listed in the Old Testament match Jesus perfectly.

Being a woman, I'm surprised you don't subscribe to a major religion with a woman as its deity.

Oh wait........

NM

 

[butters]

The Gospel writers really had to stretch to make that fit. For instance, just to make Jesus born in Bethlehem as prophesied, which he certainly wasn't, Luke says he was born during the reign of Herod the Great and during a Roman census, which is impossible -- the first Roman census of Judea was not taken until ten years after Herod's death. It would not have been taken while he lived, because the main purpose of the census was to facilitate tax collection, and the Romans did not directly tax the people of their client kingdoms, only of their own provinces. Also, the Romans certainly never required people to travel to an ancestral home town to register -- you registered where you would be paying your taxes, i.e., where you lived at present.

there was YUGE reason for the story of the snake and apple... it was important to keep people ignorant; that way they could be manipulated so much easier. 'believe this because i say it's true'. asking questions is a no-no, just accept this as truth and be happy you don't need to accept total responsibility for your actions in this life.

a lack of education is the greatest tool for manipulation
education is the enemy of those wanting to use others for their own gain

 

[BBCfan]

Being a woman, I'm surprised you don't subscribe to a major religion with a woman as its deity.

Oh wait........

NM

Well...little is known about this Jesus fellow before 30...perhaps he was Transgender and switched to a he from a she at 30. No known copulation evidence or offspring...could be why.

 

[Lazaran]

there was YUGE reason for the story of the snake and apple... it was important to keep people ignorant; that way they could be manipulated so much easier. 'believe this because i say it's true'. asking questions is a no-no, just accept this as truth and be happy you don't need to accept total responsibility for your actions in this life.

a lack of education is the greatest tool for manipulation
education is the enemy of those wanting to use others for their own gain

Another subtle message in the snake and the apple story is that women are easily swayed by temptation, and that they are temptresses themselves, corrupting normally pious men with their wicked ways and charms.

The bible and texts like it were the main instruments used in the second classing of women in society. Those texts were used by misogynistic sociopaths who recognized the power of words attributed to "God", to intimidate, indoctrinate and subjugate the "weaker" members of society.

The real shame is that "good" "men" went along with the misogynistic sociopath's demotion of women in society. The institutionalized toxic, violent, sexually abusive society we live in, is in large part a result of the teachings in religious texts.

 

[pecksniff]

Being a woman, I'm surprised you don't subscribe to a major religion with a woman as its deity.

Oh wait........

NM

Michelangelo is on his back painting the Sistine Chapel ceiling and getting bored. He looks down and sees a woman kneeling at the altar with her head bowed. He decides to have a little fun and shouts "I am Jesus Christ! Listen to me and I will perform miracles!"

The woman glances up, then bows her head again.

"I am Jesus Christ!"

She looks up again and snaps, "Hey, you shuddupa you mouth! I'ma talka to you Momma!"

 

[pecksniff]

Another subtle message in the snake and the apple story is that women are easily swayed by temptation, and that they are temptresses themselves, corrupting normally pious men with their wicked ways and charms.

The bible and texts like it were the main instruments used in the second classing of women in society. Those texts were used by misogynistic sociopaths who recognized the power of words attributed to "God", to intimidate, indoctrinate and subjugate the "weaker" members of society.

The real shame is that "good" "men" went along with the misogynistic sociopaths demotion of women in society. The institutionalized toxic, violent, sexually abusive society we live in, is in large part a result of the teachings in religious texts.

Well, like most religions, it simply codified the accepted norms of its culture.

 

[colddiesel]

in all fairness to tryharder, i completely missed the 'Adaptation' she meant, i.e natural selection creating certain changes

having said that, though, adaptation is the primary mechanism of evolution.

Despite the fact that Tryharder has been here a fair while I am very uncertain as to what she 'believes/knows'. When TH says she believes in adaptation, I think she means post creation changes. So I think she still believes that "the Creation" was the primary event and adaptation only accounts for subsequent changes.

I think that she is also a Biblical literalist and believes in the inerrancy of the Bible (the 17th century English translation). I have never figured out what church she belongs to, one of the Baptist or Presbyterian schisms perhaps?

I think that TH is a fundamentally good person, probably heavily involved doing good things in the pastoral activities of her congregations.

She sometimes says "Christians believe" which is a bit brave because if my other assumptions are right, her church represents the views of about 1.8% of all Christians, rather less than Ethiopic Copts for example. I suspect that her churches membership is largely waspish, white, politically right wing, mysogynist, and deeply authoritarian.

I apologise If I am wrong in any of my assumptions and would appreciate being told if this is so.

 

[Tryharder62]

Adam was with Eve. He heard what both God and the serpent said and made his choice. Genesis 3:6, NIV: "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." God is not a misogynist. He created man and woman in his own image.

 

[phrodeau]

Adam was with Eve. He heard what both God and the serpent said and made his choice. Genesis 3:6, NIV: "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." God is not a misogynist. He created man and woman in his own image.

So Eve knew what was good before eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. She saw that it was desirable for gaining wisdom. How did she learn that?

 

[Tryharder62]

Despite the fact that Tryharder has been here a fair while I am very uncertain as to what she 'believes/knows'. When TH says she believes in adaptation, I think she means post creation changes. So I think she still believes that "the Creation" was the primary event and adaptation only accounts for subsequent changes.

I think that she is also a Biblical literalist and believes in the inerrancy of the Bible (the 17th century English translation). I have never figured out what church she belongs to, one of the Baptist or Presbyterian schisms perhaps?

I think that TH is a fundamentally good person, probably heavily involved doing good things in the pastoral activities of her congregations.

She sometimes says "Christians believe" which is a bit brave because if my other assumptions are right, her church represents the views of about 1.8% of all Christians, rather less than Ethiopic Copts for example. I suspect that her churches membership is largely waspish, white, politically right wing, mysogynist, and deeply authoritarian.

I apologise If I am wrong in any of my assumptions and would appreciate being told if this is so.

I have always said I believe in creation. I'm a literalist and believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, but the original Hebrew and Greek. I attend an Independent Baptist Church. Have worked in a Methodist and Catholic church. I think denominations tend to just divide Christians.