Buffy: Countdown to the Apocalypse
- Thread starter RastaPope
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Master Control
Literotica Guru
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Kennedy had to die.
They could not make Anya the oly big profile death.
They could not make Anya the oly big profile death.
Azwed
Invading Poland
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Eagle70 said:
Nope she was on the bus and I saw her at the very end so she did not die. I do'nt have a broadband connection anymore so I am not going to try and dl the ep to see exactly where she was.
I am not even sure those slayers we saw die when buffy was down on the ground died. I think the first was just fucking with her mind trying to make it seem like she was losing.
AmishPope said:
Yeah, no knock on that dude, but he gets his info from "newsgroups". I highly doubt any info he has is factual, as SMG said she isnt going to come back to the Buffy Universe. Ever. Buffy's done, according to her.
We've only had one real source of info here...and i miss him. Come back on chief. You got some 'splaining to do.
SleepingWarrior
Egocentric Sociopath
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Kennedy did not die damnit...She was helping Willow out of the school after everyone but Buffy and Spike left the Hellmouth and she was later seen on the bus. Hell Buffy didn't even die and she got a sword through the gut...Looked like it got her liver too...
One question for the Rasta man... Is the power given to all of the girls meant to be slayers a one time deal for those that are alive at the moment or does it also affect the future generations of girls who are meant to be slayers?
One question for the Rasta man... Is the power given to all of the girls meant to be slayers a one time deal for those that are alive at the moment or does it also affect the future generations of girls who are meant to be slayers?
SleepingWarrior said:
Yeah, you're right...i HATE Kennedy, she really shoulda died...she was the Connor of Buffy for me. She just annoyed the shit outta me...
And i think all the future Slayers now have the power...because at the end, Willow asked Buffy how it felt to be "normal" again.
SleepingWarrior
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What I don't know if I like or dislike is that the original members of the cast all survived... I mean, ya think Xander would have bought it having to fight with only one eye and all and only Dawn backing him up. Willow was left alone and in a weakened state. Woods was hurt basically leaving Giles to fend for himself. I guess what I am trying to say is that it would have made it a lil more real that 1 of them died... But I guess ya don't just kill off potential cash cows, lol.
SleepingWarrior said:
I liked how the original 4 survived...it all came down to them, because before Wood, Faith, The SITS, even Spike, it was just Giles, Buffy, Willow, and Xander. And thats how it ended, i thought that was great. And Xander did kinda have a hard time...it was Dawnie's quick thinking that killed those uber-vamps.
Ok, so i figured it out..Rasta is the dude that plays Andrew, right? c'mon, how PERFECT would that be?
kidding..kidding
Azwed
Invading Poland
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Eagle70 said:Ok, so i figured it out..Rasta is the dude that plays Andrew, right? c'mon, how PERFECT would that be?
kidding..kidding
Hehe that would be hilarious but would not work out since Rasta said the show has been a big part of his life for years.
SleepingWarrior
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Eagle70 said:
If you go even beyond those 4 every major original cast member is still around... Angel and even Cordy even though she is leaving the Buffyverse... Guess ya just can't kill off the big characters nowadays...
AmishPope
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Eagle70 said:I liked how the original 4 survived...it all came down to them, because before Wood, Faith, The SITS, even Spike, it was just Giles, Buffy, Willow, and Xander. And thats how it ended, i thought that was great. And Xander did kinda have a hard time...it was Dawnie's quick thinking that killed those uber-vamps.
Ok, so i figured it out..Rasta is the dude that plays Andrew, right? c'mon, how PERFECT would that be?
kidding..kidding
Yeah 'cause he/she only called Andrew gay how many times? And we all know how Popes feel about javelin swalloers.
Tantrikenetic
Half Metal Alchemist
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So when do Xander and Willow get their own spin-off?
it was the whole collapsing of the Hellmouth that did it. it was all destroyed...well..there IS that one in Cleveland...
someone might wanna back me up on this, but i dont think you can kill the First..just knock it out of commisson for a while.
someone might wanna back me up on this, but i dont think you can kill the First..just knock it out of commisson for a while.
cybergirly
Cranky
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Eagle70 said:
If you "killed" the First, there would be no more evil in the world...period. Pushing it back is the best that can be done.
Beebeeblue
Wise Woman
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Eagle70 said:
Oh, tongue ring. -Dawn-
Did anyone else just laugh at that line? I was dying. Poor Dawn and her slow wit.
Romial
Technically Amazing
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An interesting article I found while surfing the net
Many of us started watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer seven years ago to see a woman kick weekly demon butt. We were not in it for lesbian subtext. But even as we wondered at former soap star Sarah Michelle Gellar's ability to master a sweep kick, we found ourselves distracted by her spellbinding buddy. Young witch Willow (Alyson Hannigan), in forgettable outfits and honest, flat red hair, was resplendent. As Buffy's nurturing best friend, she thought her way through the hell of Sunnydale high school with gooney, understated wit. Then she fell in love--with a girl.
It was the fourth season, and the show's boy-genius feminist creator Joss Whedon and executive producer Marti Noxon started Willow on what in screenwriting terms is considered an interesting "arc." They presented her with Tara (Amber Benson), a painfully shy witch in granola cottons and a bigger-than-TV-sized body. From their first spell together, sparks flew. At Buffy viewing parties and Internet chat rooms, lesbian and bi women hoped aloud that Whedon and Noxon would really deliver here by giving viewers something more than one of those TV flights over lesbianland that's over in a ratings minute. And bless them they did. For nearly three seasons the world got to watch as two smart girls fell slowly in love.
Willow and Tara's warts-and-all relationship was heavy on sugar and spell casting. After Tara's brains were sucked out by a god trapped in the wrong dimension, Willow nursed her back to health; when Tara's fundamentalist father gave her a give-up-the-witchcraft ultimatum, Willow helped her girlfriend handle family rejection. The two advocated Wiccan pride, conquered addiction (as Willow's powers become all-consuming, Tara tough-loved her into quitting), and even modeled lesbian parenthood when Buffy died long enough to leave her orphaned little sister in their care. All that was missing was the sex.
"The chaste thing was necessity," says Noxon. "We had to fight [Buffy's former network] the WB for every little thing there. ŒOkay, you can have one kiss. Okay one fondle. Okay, a kiss and a fondle but, uh, not in the daytime or in bed! There were all these arbitrary rules. So their relationship became a little idealized. It worked out okay, because it became more romantic. Once we got to UPN there was a little less concern."
Except for one minor detail: When Tara was killed at the end of the sixth season, her death set off a controversy that rocked the show's heavily invested fan base. Some of the heat came from the fact that the episode contained the first-ever look at Tara and Willow in a post-coital embrace. Shortly thereafter a bullet intended for Buffy tore through the young lover's chest. We watched her die in Willow's arms, her blood soaking her girlfriend's clothes. In subsequent episodes Willow's grief turned her dark, and this gentle character achieved the crest of her arc. When her pleas to a powerful god for Tara's return were refused, she attempted to destroy the world--including her Sunnydale pals--settling in the end for torturing and then flaying the skin off Tara's killer.
All hell also broke loose in the real world. Arguments flared in The Kitten, The Witches, and The Bad Wardrobe, an online Willow and Tara board, and the gay and mainstream press recycled them. Petitions circulated for Tara's reinstatement. Popmatters.com TV critic Todd Ramlow called on GLAAD to rescind its nomination of the series for Outstanding Drama. Suddenly Whedon and Noxon found themselves defending against charges ranging from ignorance to outright homophobia. They were accused of recklessly invoking the lesbian-sex-leads-to-death trope. Suddenly, the darling, longest-running lesbian relationship in television history was lumped in with The Children's Hour, Basic Instinct, and the many short-lived television lesbian characters who turned evil or died horrible deaths.
The pair apologized for any insensitivity but reiterated that Buffy was a show about hardship, and that not killing Tara would have been homophobic. Noxon says "I've gotten some of the most frightening e-mails and letters from our fans for killing Tara. Our fans are so passionate and feel so deeply about these characters. We were aware that killing Tara was problematic. There was a lot of talk before we did it. But then we knew we would have done it to any character regardless of sexuality. It was Willow's time to get it and it would have been hypocritical not to do it."
At the time Whedon tried mollifying fans with assurances that Willow would remain a lesbian. He told TV Guide Online "without any equivocation" that "Willow's gayŠWe decided it would be unfair of us, particularly considering the circumstances of Tara's controversial death to say, 'Oh, now Willow's over it.'"
Willow has not gotten over her homosexuality; nor has she completely gotten over Tara. Noxon says this season will find her "coming back slowly from last season. She needs to earn her right to do magic again and to embrace her power. There's no 'Here I am, like my shirt? Mochas for everybody!' We know it will be more difficult than that. She needs to recover from what she became and from a really strong relationship with Tara."
At one point there had been talk of bringing Tara back, albeit in a more limited capacity. "At a time we were pursuing a story line where Tara shows up as The First," says Noxon. "The First is a character that can assume identities of the dead. We saw Tara coming to talk to Willow and then revealing herself as The First. But Amber wasn't available. We saw some other possibilities too, but Amber wasn't available for those either."
Instead, Willow has taken up with the assertive slayer-in-training Kennedy (Iyari Limon). This relationship has already overtaken the first in terms of overt sexuality. Some Buffy fans we spoke with are thrilled, while others are wary. Tricia, a fan who lately filled in her BtVS gaps by collecting all the old episodes on video, says, "It made my heart hurt when (Tara) was killed. Their love was one of the most beautiful things I'd seen on television. I allow for the sort of ignorance that may have been at play in the writers' decisions. There aren't enough hours in the day for everybody to be a queer theorist. However, I am very upset about this new woman. There was no building this relationship up, no Willow discovering anything about her ability to love again. Just boom. Relationship."
Tracy, who is a long-term member of a Buffy viewing party, says, "I love Willow and I want to see her happy. But Buffy is a tragic show. Buffy can't have Angel because he'll lose his soul. Xander leaves Anya at the altar. Giles was in love with the computer teacher so she had to die. It's a show about dying. And having a good time." But Tracy isn't so sure about Kennedy. "I am not happy about this new girl. Willow is hot, we've known that all along, but she should be in mourning longer. Why was she making out on the couch like that?"
Willow devotee (and real-life Wicca practitioner) Christina disagrees. "I was surprised and sad when Tara was killed. But I still feel like the show has done nothing but good in terms of advancing gay issues. If we want gay, lesbian, and bi relationships to be shown as a natural part of life on Buffy, that means they will also be a natural part of death. I was so pleased to see the writers have Willow and this new girl really makeout. And she didn't show up too soon. Remember, this is teenage TV. Willow and Tara were a good transitional relationship for audiences. Mainstream America may still not be ready for bulldykes in codpieces, but these characters pushed the edge. This new relationship may push it even more."
Noxon will only say, "We haven't decided whether or not we'll get to (more sex) with Kennedy. We better get on it though, we only have a few more episodes to go!" How about when Buffy ends, what will become of Willow? Will there be a spin off? A movie? "What will happen to Willow is the same thing that will happen to all the characters. The end of this season will mean nice character conclusions for all and a real series wrap-up. Whether or not they'll go on, well, there's only discussion about that."
With a series that has spawned conventions, action figures, video games, popular comics, and the kind of fanatical devotion that rivals Star Trek, Noxon knows that whatever happens now the stories she's told have had an impact. "Will we be at Buffy conventions for the rest of our lives? In twenty years I hope I'm not the crazy lady showing off all her stills from Buffy. I hope to have a long career and other successes. But yeah, this has been great. How can you not embrace something that's become part of the zeitgeist?"
Many of us started watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer seven years ago to see a woman kick weekly demon butt. We were not in it for lesbian subtext. But even as we wondered at former soap star Sarah Michelle Gellar's ability to master a sweep kick, we found ourselves distracted by her spellbinding buddy. Young witch Willow (Alyson Hannigan), in forgettable outfits and honest, flat red hair, was resplendent. As Buffy's nurturing best friend, she thought her way through the hell of Sunnydale high school with gooney, understated wit. Then she fell in love--with a girl.
It was the fourth season, and the show's boy-genius feminist creator Joss Whedon and executive producer Marti Noxon started Willow on what in screenwriting terms is considered an interesting "arc." They presented her with Tara (Amber Benson), a painfully shy witch in granola cottons and a bigger-than-TV-sized body. From their first spell together, sparks flew. At Buffy viewing parties and Internet chat rooms, lesbian and bi women hoped aloud that Whedon and Noxon would really deliver here by giving viewers something more than one of those TV flights over lesbianland that's over in a ratings minute. And bless them they did. For nearly three seasons the world got to watch as two smart girls fell slowly in love.
Willow and Tara's warts-and-all relationship was heavy on sugar and spell casting. After Tara's brains were sucked out by a god trapped in the wrong dimension, Willow nursed her back to health; when Tara's fundamentalist father gave her a give-up-the-witchcraft ultimatum, Willow helped her girlfriend handle family rejection. The two advocated Wiccan pride, conquered addiction (as Willow's powers become all-consuming, Tara tough-loved her into quitting), and even modeled lesbian parenthood when Buffy died long enough to leave her orphaned little sister in their care. All that was missing was the sex.
"The chaste thing was necessity," says Noxon. "We had to fight [Buffy's former network] the WB for every little thing there. ŒOkay, you can have one kiss. Okay one fondle. Okay, a kiss and a fondle but, uh, not in the daytime or in bed! There were all these arbitrary rules. So their relationship became a little idealized. It worked out okay, because it became more romantic. Once we got to UPN there was a little less concern."
Except for one minor detail: When Tara was killed at the end of the sixth season, her death set off a controversy that rocked the show's heavily invested fan base. Some of the heat came from the fact that the episode contained the first-ever look at Tara and Willow in a post-coital embrace. Shortly thereafter a bullet intended for Buffy tore through the young lover's chest. We watched her die in Willow's arms, her blood soaking her girlfriend's clothes. In subsequent episodes Willow's grief turned her dark, and this gentle character achieved the crest of her arc. When her pleas to a powerful god for Tara's return were refused, she attempted to destroy the world--including her Sunnydale pals--settling in the end for torturing and then flaying the skin off Tara's killer.
All hell also broke loose in the real world. Arguments flared in The Kitten, The Witches, and The Bad Wardrobe, an online Willow and Tara board, and the gay and mainstream press recycled them. Petitions circulated for Tara's reinstatement. Popmatters.com TV critic Todd Ramlow called on GLAAD to rescind its nomination of the series for Outstanding Drama. Suddenly Whedon and Noxon found themselves defending against charges ranging from ignorance to outright homophobia. They were accused of recklessly invoking the lesbian-sex-leads-to-death trope. Suddenly, the darling, longest-running lesbian relationship in television history was lumped in with The Children's Hour, Basic Instinct, and the many short-lived television lesbian characters who turned evil or died horrible deaths.
The pair apologized for any insensitivity but reiterated that Buffy was a show about hardship, and that not killing Tara would have been homophobic. Noxon says "I've gotten some of the most frightening e-mails and letters from our fans for killing Tara. Our fans are so passionate and feel so deeply about these characters. We were aware that killing Tara was problematic. There was a lot of talk before we did it. But then we knew we would have done it to any character regardless of sexuality. It was Willow's time to get it and it would have been hypocritical not to do it."
At the time Whedon tried mollifying fans with assurances that Willow would remain a lesbian. He told TV Guide Online "without any equivocation" that "Willow's gayŠWe decided it would be unfair of us, particularly considering the circumstances of Tara's controversial death to say, 'Oh, now Willow's over it.'"
Willow has not gotten over her homosexuality; nor has she completely gotten over Tara. Noxon says this season will find her "coming back slowly from last season. She needs to earn her right to do magic again and to embrace her power. There's no 'Here I am, like my shirt? Mochas for everybody!' We know it will be more difficult than that. She needs to recover from what she became and from a really strong relationship with Tara."
At one point there had been talk of bringing Tara back, albeit in a more limited capacity. "At a time we were pursuing a story line where Tara shows up as The First," says Noxon. "The First is a character that can assume identities of the dead. We saw Tara coming to talk to Willow and then revealing herself as The First. But Amber wasn't available. We saw some other possibilities too, but Amber wasn't available for those either."
Instead, Willow has taken up with the assertive slayer-in-training Kennedy (Iyari Limon). This relationship has already overtaken the first in terms of overt sexuality. Some Buffy fans we spoke with are thrilled, while others are wary. Tricia, a fan who lately filled in her BtVS gaps by collecting all the old episodes on video, says, "It made my heart hurt when (Tara) was killed. Their love was one of the most beautiful things I'd seen on television. I allow for the sort of ignorance that may have been at play in the writers' decisions. There aren't enough hours in the day for everybody to be a queer theorist. However, I am very upset about this new woman. There was no building this relationship up, no Willow discovering anything about her ability to love again. Just boom. Relationship."
Tracy, who is a long-term member of a Buffy viewing party, says, "I love Willow and I want to see her happy. But Buffy is a tragic show. Buffy can't have Angel because he'll lose his soul. Xander leaves Anya at the altar. Giles was in love with the computer teacher so she had to die. It's a show about dying. And having a good time." But Tracy isn't so sure about Kennedy. "I am not happy about this new girl. Willow is hot, we've known that all along, but she should be in mourning longer. Why was she making out on the couch like that?"
Willow devotee (and real-life Wicca practitioner) Christina disagrees. "I was surprised and sad when Tara was killed. But I still feel like the show has done nothing but good in terms of advancing gay issues. If we want gay, lesbian, and bi relationships to be shown as a natural part of life on Buffy, that means they will also be a natural part of death. I was so pleased to see the writers have Willow and this new girl really makeout. And she didn't show up too soon. Remember, this is teenage TV. Willow and Tara were a good transitional relationship for audiences. Mainstream America may still not be ready for bulldykes in codpieces, but these characters pushed the edge. This new relationship may push it even more."
Noxon will only say, "We haven't decided whether or not we'll get to (more sex) with Kennedy. We better get on it though, we only have a few more episodes to go!" How about when Buffy ends, what will become of Willow? Will there be a spin off? A movie? "What will happen to Willow is the same thing that will happen to all the characters. The end of this season will mean nice character conclusions for all and a real series wrap-up. Whether or not they'll go on, well, there's only discussion about that."
With a series that has spawned conventions, action figures, video games, popular comics, and the kind of fanatical devotion that rivals Star Trek, Noxon knows that whatever happens now the stories she's told have had an impact. "Will we be at Buffy conventions for the rest of our lives? In twenty years I hope I'm not the crazy lady showing off all her stills from Buffy. I hope to have a long career and other successes. But yeah, this has been great. How can you not embrace something that's become part of the zeitgeist?"
aside from there being maybe a movie in like 5 years...see, what i'm thinking is, boost it all into the future, where the scoobies are older, and theres one last battle between good and evil..half of America is being held by like Satan or something...you know, something apocolyptic...THAT would be cool...
but i dont want spinoffs. to me, its over. they're going to go on with their lives now. head to cleveland or something. it ended on a good note...no more sunnydale. lets leave it at that, ya know?
but i dont want spinoffs. to me, its over. they're going to go on with their lives now. head to cleveland or something. it ended on a good note...no more sunnydale. lets leave it at that, ya know?
sexy-girl
sacrilegious
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2001
- Posts
- 19,584
you should all thank me because i saw buffy sunday night and could of spoiled it for you all
anyway it was cool and of course kennedy didn't die ... i really don't get why people don't like her shes fun wild and has got a bit of an edge but also shes very sweet hearted with willow
anyone that doesn't like her sucks
anyway it was cool and of course kennedy didn't die ... i really don't get why people don't like her shes fun wild and has got a bit of an edge but also shes very sweet hearted with willow
anyone that doesn't like her sucks
