Blackfish...pass it on

[Keroin]

I hope everyone will see this film. It's a story that desperately needs to be told.

Blackfish

 

[Loverskitten]

Orcas are evil creatures. Evil

 

[Keroin]

Orcas are evil creatures. Evil

They are just creatures. No more evil than a lion or a bear.

 

[Loverskitten]

They are just creatures. No more evil than a lion or a bear.

Oh yes they are! Lions and bears hunt for food. Orcas are one of the few species who will hunt just for fun, torture, and play with prey.
I saw a nature show on them years ago and I will never get the scene of a pod surrounding a whale calf and torturing it as it's mother cried, haunting cries as the pod took nibbles out of the calf, only to leave it dieing. The mother tried to put herself between them and the calf but there were too many. Orcas will also just eat the tongue of whales, equivalent to humans shark finning or killing rhinos for their horns.
I wouldn't care if the whole species disappeared. I hate them.

 

[Loverskitten]

I would look online for the footage but frankly it churns my stomach just thinking about it.

 

[Keroin]

Oh yes they are! Lions and bears hunt for food. Orcas are one of the few species who will hunt just for fun, torture, and play with prey.
I saw a nature show on them years ago and I will never get the scene of a pod surrounding a whale calf and torturing it as it's mother cried, haunting cries as the pod took nibbles out of the calf, only to leave it dieing. The mother tried to put herself between them and the calf but there were too many. Orcas will also just eat the tongue of whales, equivalent to humans shark finning or killing rhinos for their horns.
I wouldn't care if the whole species disappeared. I hate them.

The flaw here is that you attribute human emotions/motivation to the whales. Lots of wild animals engage in killing and torture of their own and/or other species. It's not pleasant or pretty, but it is nature. And by your logic the entire human species should also be wiped out.

 

[Loverskitten]

Oh, I'm sure humans will be wiped out one day, probably by our own doing. Humans are evil too.

Orcas, for some reason, have gotten this great press. Probably "Free Willy", Shamu, and such. And long before that, they were easily trained by Eskimo whalers to herd humpbacks to their death with the tongue cut out for them as a reward. They are smart but they are actually very cruel and evil in the wild.
Sure, when a lion attacks a trainer, it's, "well it is a wild animal, it was bound to happen" but from what I can tell of this movie, if an orca attacks it's "look at the trauma the humans caused" why are they not called out as the wild animal? It's like they blame everything on the humans and orcas in the wild are saints, when it's quite the opposite.

And yes, animals have emotions just like we do.

 

[Loverskitten]

And yes, animals have emotions just like we do.

Well, except the honey badger, he doesn't give a shit.

 

[Keroin]

Oh, I'm sure humans will be wiped out one day, probably by our own doing. Humans are evil too.

Orcas, for some reason, have gotten this great press. Probably "Free Willy", Shamu, and such. And long before that, they were easily trained by Eskimo whalers to herd humpbacks to their death with the tongue cut out for them as a reward. They are smart but they are actually very cruel and evil in the wild.
Sure, when a lion attacks a trainer, it's, "well it is a wild animal, it was bound to happen" but from what I can tell of this movie, if an orca attacks it's "look at the trauma the humans caused" why are they not called out as the wild animal? It's like they blame everything on the humans and orcas in the wild are saints, when it's quite the opposite.

And yes, animals have emotions just like we do.

I am opposed to all animals in captivity, except when it is to save their lives. I despise all live animal shows. I do not advocate for Orcas to be freed because they are cute or lovable, I do so because they do not belong in prison.

Any wild animal that attacks its trainer does so because they are wild animals and not meant to be captive. Captive animals are stressed animals, often living in substandard conditions. It is never the animal's "fault", they are only acting on their natural impulses. It is our fault for putting them where they do not belong.

Yes, animals have emotions, but we can't project our own, human feelings and motives onto them. Above all, we need to respect that they are wild and an integral part of an ecosystem we have yet to fully understand.

 

[JMohegan]

Oh yes they are! Lions and bears hunt for food. Orcas are one of the few species who will hunt just for fun, torture, and play with prey.
I saw a nature show on them years ago and I will never get the scene of a pod surrounding a whale calf and torturing it as it's mother cried, haunting cries as the pod took nibbles out of the calf, only to leave it dieing. The mother tried to put herself between them and the calf but there were too many. Orcas will also just eat the tongue of whales, equivalent to humans shark finning or killing rhinos for their horns.
I wouldn't care if the whole species disappeared. I hate them.

Curious sentiments from a feline fan.

I wouldn't advocate elimination of domestic cat species. Think of the economy tanking with Fancy Feast and litter box companies!! But of course I do think it should be illegal to let domestic cats outside. Offenses punished with fines and mandatory community service, picking up highway litter for a sustained period of time.

Orcas? Nature's brutal, no question. Careful with the annihilation of species though. Unintended consequences abound.

 

[JMohegan]

I would look online for the footage but frankly it churns my stomach just thinking about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fdKYUo7QIM

Complete with mother bird freaking out.

Of course, here the real killer is the human who let the invasive species out into the yard.

 

[JMohegan]

I hope everyone will see this film. It's a story that desperately needs to be told.

Blackfish

I wonder what percent of Sea World shareholders, employees, and customers are ignorant about the abuse, and what percent know but just don't give a fuck? (Or rather, enough of a fuck to take a pass on the income or entertainment.)

Here's an interesting article on the film.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/25/entertainment/la-et-mn-sundance-blackfish-20130125

How the hell does one get a bachelor's in animal science from Cornell, and yet remain ignorant of the fact that you'd be directly supporting the torture of intelligent creatures by taking that job?

 

[intothewoods]

Curious sentiments from a feline fan.

Who did not see this comment coming???

That was like a big ol' softball to MISTER CAT PELTER!!!!




Sorry to interrupt the thread, Keroin. Ahem.

 

[Keroin]

I wonder what percent of Sea World shareholders, employees, and customers are ignorant about the abuse, and what percent know but just don't give a fuck? (Or rather, enough of a fuck to take a pass on the income or entertainment.)

Here's an interesting article on the film.

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jan/25/entertainment/la-et-mn-sundance-blackfish-20130125

How the hell does one get a bachelor's in animal science from Cornell, and yet remain ignorant of the fact that you'd be directly supporting the torture of intelligent creatures by taking that job?

Comments to follow. Have to get to sleep - big day on the ocean tomorrow!

Sorry to interrupt the thread, Keroin. Ahem.

No worries, carry on.

 

[JMohegan]

Who did not see this comment coming???

That was like a big ol' softball to MISTER CAT PELTER!!!!




Sorry to interrupt the thread, Keroin. Ahem.

More like a big ol' ball on a tee!

Seriously, though, I don't see this as thread interruption, but rather the point of the thread precisely.

From an ethical perspective, what's the difference between buying a ticket to Sea World and letting a domestic cat out in the neighborhood? I don't see one. Do you?

The point is: there are nasty consequences to these human behaviors, and people either give a fuck, or they don't. I applaud the effort to change specific behaviors with education (e.g., this film), even though I'm not optimistic regarding the outcome.

 

[intothewoods]

More like a big ol' ball on a tee!

Seriously, though, I don't see this as thread interruption, but rather the point of the thread precisely.

From an ethical perspective, what's the difference between buying a ticket to Sea World and letting a domestic cat out in the neighborhood? I don't see one. Do you?

The point is: there are nasty consequences to these human behaviors, and people either give a fuck, or they don't. I applaud the effort to change specific behaviors with education (e.g., this film), even though I'm not optimistic regarding the outcome.

Well, certainly many cat/pet owners are militant about keeping your cat indoors, primarily for the cat's safety. I'm sure they would agree with you. We keep our current cat indoors for that reason.

I'm not sure it's quite the same though. Cats enjoy being outside. The animals at Sea World presumably do not like being in captivity -- their reduced life expectancy probably supports that presumption. I feel for the bunnies you've mentioned in the past and for birds, but aren't cats mostly hunting mice and rats? I'm sure they are around here. We don't have any bunnies, and mice/rats likely outnumber birds and are easier prey. Again, vets do seem to be in favor of keeping cats inside anyway. Beyond the danger posed by cars, (in urban areas) there are lots of people who do terrible stuff to cats just because.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, certainly many cat/pet owners are militant about keeping your cat indoors, primarily for the cat's safety. I'm sure they would agree with you. We keep our current cat indoors for that reason.

I'm not sure it's quite the same though. Cats enjoy being outside. The animals at Sea World presumably do not like being in captivity -- their reduced life expectancy probably supports that presumption. I feel for the bunnies you've mentioned in the past and for birds, but aren't cats mostly hunting mice and rats? I'm sure they are around here. We don't have any bunnies, and mice/rats likely outnumber birds and are easier prey. Again, vets do seem to be in favor of keeping cats inside anyway. Beyond the danger posed by cars, (in urban areas) there are lots of people who do terrible stuff to cats just because.

The pet cat's entertainment is just an extension of the indulgent human owner's entertainment. In a big picture sense, this notion that humans have a right to purchase and then let loose non-native species that decimate bird populations, for example - just 'cause they collectively want their precious killer kitties to have a good time - is the exact same mentality that gets you orcas in tanks, gorillas in zoos, and elephants in the circus.

To answer your question - in my suburban neighborhood, cats mainly torture, dismember, and/or kill rabbits, chipmunks, songbirds, and occasionally squirrels.

 

[intothewoods]

The pet cat's entertainment is just an extension of the indulgent human owner's entertainment. In a big picture sense, this notion that humans have a right to purchase and then let loose non-native species that decimate bird populations, for example - just 'cause they collectively want their precious killer kitties to have a good time - is the exact same mentality that gets you orcas in tanks, gorillas in zoos, and elephants in the circus.

To answer your question - in my suburban neighborhood, cats mainly torture, dismember, and/or kill rabbits, chipmunks, songbirds, and occasionally squirrels.

At some level it's indulgent, but part of being a pet owner is the desire to care for your pet (above and beyond, food, shelter and health care), including it's happiness, and I know many pet owners are sincere in that desire. Should that desire outweigh another species' safety? No, I'm not saying that, but I disagree that the motivation is the same as someone who goes to see a caged animal.

Not all pet owners are animal welfare advocates, of course, but I think most just don't have all the facts. And maybe they need to hear more stories about bunnies. I mean, heck, if you think cats are cute, you will also think bunnies are cute, and you won't want to see a bunny be torn apart by a cat.

 

[JMohegan]

At some level it's indulgent, but part of being a pet owner is the desire to care for your pet (above and beyond, food, shelter and health care), including it's happiness, and I know many pet owners are sincere in that desire. Should that desire outweigh another species' safety? No, I'm not saying that, but I disagree that the motivation is the same as someone who goes to see a caged animal.

Not all pet owners are animal welfare advocates, of course, but I think most just don't have all the facts. And maybe they need to hear more stories about bunnies. I mean, heck, if you think cats are cute, you will also think bunnies are cute, and you won't want to see a bunny be torn apart by a cat.

I applaud any and all efforts to educate cat owners. But as with the purchase of Sea World tickets, I'm not optimistic that people will voluntarily change their behavior.

Watch the video I linked in post 11, above. You can hear the owner verbally acknowledging that the cat is not just killing, but actually engaging in a sustained bout of torturing the bird. The owner's companion says that's just what cats do, he's a predator, that's nature for you, blah blah.

Except it's NOT "nature", because the fucking cat is a non-native species.

Throughout, you can see the baby struggling to get away as he is slowing ripped torn apart by the cat. You can hear the tortured bird's parent tweeting frantically. Near the end, you can see the parent hopping frantically around the yard.

Do the humans intervene to stop the cat from toying with the bird? Does the owner have an epiphany, in which she grabs killer kitty and says golly, maybe I should be keeping him indoors? Nope. They just keep filming.

In case anyone thinks the video was an isolated incident of cat mania, here are the numbers.

"Cats that live in the wild or indoor pets allowed to roam outdoors kill from 1.4 billion to as many as 3.7 billion birds in the continental U.S. each year, says a new study that escalates a decades-old debate over the feline threat to native animals.

The estimates are much higher than the hundreds of millions of annual bird deaths previously attributed to cats. The study also says that from 6.9 billion to as many as 20.7 billion mammals — mainly mice, shrews, rabbits and voles — are killed by cats annually in the contiguous 48 states."

 

[intothewoods]

I applaud any and all efforts to educate cat owners. But as with the purchase of Sea World tickets, I'm not optimistic that people will voluntarily change their behavior.

Watch the video I linked in post 11, above. You can hear the owner verbally acknowledging that the cat is not just killing, but actually engaging in a sustained bout of torturing the bird. The owner's companion says that's just what cats do, he's a predator, that's nature for you, blah blah.

Except it's NOT "nature", because the fucking cat is a non-native species.

Throughout, you can see the baby struggling to get away as he is slowing ripped torn apart by the cat. You can hear the tortured bird's parent tweeting frantically. Near the end, you can see the parent hopping frantically around the yard.

Do the humans intervene to stop the cat from toying with the bird? Does the owner have an epiphany, in which she grabs killer kitty and says golly, maybe I should be keeping him indoors? Nope. They just keep filming.

In case anyone thinks the video was an isolated incident of cat mania, here are the numbers.

"Cats that live in the wild or indoor pets allowed to roam outdoors kill from 1.4 billion to as many as 3.7 billion birds in the continental U.S. each year, says a new study that escalates a decades-old debate over the feline threat to native animals.

The estimates are much higher than the hundreds of millions of annual bird deaths previously attributed to cats. The study also says that from 6.9 billion to as many as 20.7 billion mammals — mainly mice, shrews, rabbits and voles — are killed by cats annually in the contiguous 48 states."

Well, people who film weird shit and put it on the internet are kind of a special breed!

Personally I respond to numbers, and recommendations from folks with expertise in a field. I am happy to keep my cat indoors. Other people respond in other ways. Frankly, I think people feel the most connection to their own pets. Tell them if they let their cat out it could be run over or worse, and that might have some effect on them. But this isn't really something one person can do alone.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, people who film weird shit and put it on the internet are kind of a special breed!

Personally I respond to numbers, and recommendations from folks with expertise in a field. I am happy to keep my cat indoors. Other people respond in other ways. Frankly, I think people feel the most connection to their own pets. Tell them if they let their cat out it could be run over or worse, and that might have some effect on them. But this isn't really something one person can do alone.

Right, one person alone can't change human behavior. It takes legislation to really make a dent in it, and even that won't eliminate the problem. See Michael Vick, and dogfighting, for example.

 

[Keroin]

JM and ITW, you both have valid points. When it comes to animals and our relationship to them, humans have a long way to go.

JM, you are correct. House cats are an invasive species responsible for a huge amount of the decline in wild species, particularly birds. Dog owners, you don't get a free ride either. Almost all commercial cat and dog foods contain fish oil and fish meal - one of the big contributors to global overfishing and depletion of wild fish stocks.

So, yes, it's complicated. Our actions have pond ripple effects we often aren't aware of. And even when we are aware, many people choose not to take any action to change.

I love cats and dogs, and intend to own both one day in the hopefully-not-too-distant future. I will feed them as ethically as possible. I will bell my cat and will actively discourage predation - but I won't keep my cat indoors 24/7, just as I will not keep my dog indoors 24/7. You can be a responsible pet owner without depriving your pets of fresh air, exercise, and interaction with the natural world.

In the big picture, humans' attitudes toward animals applies to every species. As regards this topic, however, I have focused on the unnecessary captivity of wild animals - specifically whales. You're right, ITW, owners who let their cats outside often do so out of love for the animal and a desire for their well-being. While that doesn't absolve negligent cat owners, it is a direct contrast to those who hold whales in captivity because that is done solely for profit and exploitation. The well being of the whale is not a factor and never has been.

 

[Keroin]

How the hell does one get a bachelor's in animal science from Cornell, and yet remain ignorant of the fact that you'd be directly supporting the torture of intelligent creatures by taking that job?

During our time in the tourism business, L and I have dealt with a lot of young men and women fresh out of university. These were future scientists, doctors, lawyers, economists, you name it. We were frequently amazed at the lack of "common sense" knowledge, or plain ignorance, displayed by these supposedly educated individuals when it came to the world outside the classroom.

So, sadly, the above doesn't shock me.

 

[JMohegan]

JM and ITW, you both have valid points. When it comes to animals and our relationship to them, humans have a long way to go.

JM, you are correct. House cats are an invasive species responsible for a huge amount of the decline in wild species, particularly birds. Dog owners, you don't get a free ride either. Almost all commercial cat and dog foods contain fish oil and fish meal - one of the big contributors to global overfishing and depletion of wild fish stocks.

So, yes, it's complicated. Our actions have pond ripple effects we often aren't aware of. And even when we are aware, many people choose not to take any action to change.

I love cats and dogs, and intend to own both one day in the hopefully-not-too-distant future. I will feed them as ethically as possible. I will bell my cat and will actively discourage predation - but I won't keep my cat indoors 24/7, just as I will not keep my dog indoors 24/7. You can be a responsible pet owner without depriving your pets of fresh air, exercise, and interaction with the natural world.

In the big picture, humans' attitudes toward animals applies to every species. As regards this topic, however, I have focused on the unnecessary captivity of wild animals - specifically whales. You're right, ITW, owners who let their cats outside often do so out of love for the animal and a desire for their well-being. While that doesn't absolve negligent cat owners, it is a direct contrast to those who hold whales in captivity because that is done solely for profit and exploitation. The well being of the whale is not a factor and never has been.

That profit and exploitation are only possible because people are willing to pay money for tickets. No customers, no business.

So why do people shell out big bucks each for Sea World tickets? Because they want to be entertained, and they want their kids to be entertained. Weighing their own entertainment vs. any thought for the animals? They don't give a fuck.

As for responsible cat ownership - I heartily applaud the notion that rules for cats should be identical to rules for dogs. Take your cat out & about on a leash, or confine it to your own yard.

Belling, though, won't save prey such as baby birds and bunnies. Until these animals develop the ability to fly or sprint, an entire brass brand wouldn't get them to flee. They simply can't. And just like folks pondering a trip to Sea World... you either give a fuck about those native species, or you don't. This particular issue is not complicated.

I sincerely appreciate the heads up about pet food. Do you have a link to further information on that score?

 

[Keroin]

Belling, though, won't save prey such as baby birds and bunnies. Until these animals develop the ability to fly or sprint, an entire brass brand wouldn't get them to flee. They simply can't. And just like folks pondering a trip to Sea World... you either give a fuck about those native species, or you don't. This particular issue is not complicated.

I suggest a combination of belling and training, for cats. And that can work very effectively. It did for mine.

And on the flip side, if it hadn't of been for the cat population on Aitutaki, we would have been overrun by rats and mice. Rats are equally responsible for wiping out large numbers of tropical bird species, especially those that ground nest. We can thank our ancestors and their big ships for that.

I sincerely appreciate the heads up about pet food. Do you have a link to further information on that score?

You're welcome. I don't have one at hand but I'll dig through my horribly stuffed and disorganized list of bookmarked websites when I have some spare time. Fish meal and oil is also used in a number of human products, BTW.