Blackfish...pass it on

[JMohegan]

I suggest a combination of belling and training, for cats. And that can work very effectively. It did for mine.

And on the flip side, if it hadn't of been for the cat population on Aitutaki, we would have been overrun by rats and mice. Rats are equally responsible for wiping out large numbers of tropical bird species, especially those that ground nest. We can thank our ancestors and their big ships for that.

You can train cats? Who knew! How are they trained, and what are they trained to do or not do?

My dog is voice trained. He runs with me every day, off leash, on a path that meanders through woods. Voice trained, for him, means he does what I tell him to do. Consistently, always. Sits, comes, stays put, and so on. But even though he's extremely well trained, he's never allowed out of my sight because, you know, it's not like I can tell him: "Go wherever you want, but no destroying of nests, steer clear of snakes, and be back by six" or whatever. I consider myself to be personally responsible for everything that he does.

As for Aitutaki, ughh, rats, that's awful. Something similar is happening in Florida, because of the assholes who set free their pet pythons and boas.

 

[IrisAlthea]

You can train cats? Who knew! How are they trained, and what are they trained to do or not do?

My dog is voice trained. He runs with me every day, off leash, on a path that meanders through woods. Voice trained, for him, means he does what I tell him to do. Consistently, always. Sits, comes, stays put, and so on. But even though he's extremely well trained, he's never allowed out of my sight because, you know, it's not like I can tell him: "Go wherever you want, but no destroying of nests, steer clear of snakes, and be back by six" or whatever. I consider myself to be personally responsible for everything that he does.

As for Aitutaki, ughh, rats, that's awful. Something similar is happening in Florida, because of the assholes who set free their pet pythons and boas.

Yes, you can train them up to a point.

A good friend of my parents had a siamese cat. She was a nice lady but the cat was a terror to anyone but her. If you remember the siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp, you get the picture.
When a pair of doves built a nest on her balcony, she taught the cat to stay inside and leave the birds alone.
If looks could kill, the doves would have dropped dead and I'm sure the cat would have killed them if it though it was possible to get away with it, but they survived.
I can still remember the miserable look on the face of that cat though.

 

[JMohegan]

Yes, you can train them up to a point.

A good friend of my parents had a siamese cat. She was a nice lady but the cat was a terror to anyone but her. If you remember the siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp, you get the picture.
When a pair of doves built a nest on her balcony, she taught the cat to stay inside and leave the birds alone.
If looks could kill, the doves would have dropped dead and I'm sure the cat would have killed them if it though it was possible to get away with it, but they survived.
I can still remember the miserable look on the face of that cat though.

Haha, that's awesome.

 

[intothewoods]

And on the flip side, if it hadn't of been for the cat population on Aitutaki, we would have been overrun by rats and mice. Rats are equally responsible for wiping out large numbers of tropical bird species, especially those that ground nest. We can thank our ancestors and their big ships for that.

Interesting.

You can train cats? Who knew! How are they trained, and what are they trained to do or not do?

My dog is voice trained. He runs with me every day, off leash, on a path that meanders through woods. Voice trained, for him, means he does what I tell him to do. Consistently, always. Sits, comes, stays put, and so on. But even though he's extremely well trained, he's never allowed out of my sight because, you know, it's not like I can tell him: "Go wherever you want, but no destroying of nests, steer clear of snakes, and be back by six" or whatever. I consider myself to be personally responsible for everything that he does.

As for Aitutaki, ughh, rats, that's awful. Something similar is happening in Florida, because of the assholes who set free their pet pythons and boas.

Cats can certainly be trained to a degree, some better than others.

 

[Netzach]

Sea World is satan.

Orcas are awesome. Whales are awesome. It's not Disney and it doesn't need our approval, nature. I'm a fan of raptors, scavangers, roaches, and underdogs. I usually root for the cheetah and not the baby gazelle because cheetah kittens also need food, hello.

My cat is indoor only. I agree they should all be.

Can you train a cat? Well, even though I'm unsure if it's not cruel, see Russian Cat Circus.

Still, NO CAT "needs" to be outside. Or unspayed. And I love cats. That's part of why I agree with this.

Most dog owners are dumbasses and dogs do plenty of destructive shit also. I've personally witnessed dogs tear up more animals, including nesting mallard females, than any other animal, with the owners desperately trying to stop and control them. Cats are more discreet, I guess.

 

[Netzach]

The pet cat's entertainment is just an extension of the indulgent human owner's entertainment. In a big picture sense, this notion that humans have a right to purchase and then let loose non-native species that decimate bird populations, for example - just 'cause they collectively want their precious killer kitties to have a good time - is the exact same mentality that gets you orcas in tanks, gorillas in zoos, and elephants in the circus.

To answer your question - in my suburban neighborhood, cats mainly torture, dismember, and/or kill rabbits, chipmunks, songbirds, and occasionally squirrels.

Actually, an interesting project was done on outdoor cats with cams in I think Georgia by the university. They stuck cams on a whole mess of outdoor cats.

Top prey animal was actually - skinks and lizards. Birds were low priority. Garbage more popular, and the best food was the food left out for them. Cats will often have secondary families, "cheating" on their owners and eating at several houses.

I'm all about native songbirds and indoor cats, and I wanted to hear that they are the extent of the problem but sadly, the best thing a person can probably do for native birds is to wipe out an English Sparrow every day. I can't bring myself to become a neck wringer for Bluebirds.

Considering how happy my eco-happy friends are to talk about squirrel and rabbit elimination as gardeners, the cats are outnumbered in killing them, even by hippies. I was amazed at the hatred bunnies can provoke!

Still, cats are perfectly happy INside, if you start them out right.

 

[JMohegan]

Sea World is satan.

Orcas are awesome. Whales are awesome. It's not Disney and it doesn't need our approval, nature. I'm a fan of raptors, scavangers, roaches, and underdogs. I usually root for the cheetah and not the baby gazelle because cheetah kittens also need food, hello.

My cat is indoor only. I agree they should all be.

Can you train a cat? Well, even though I'm unsure if it's not cruel, see Russian Cat Circus.

Still, NO CAT "needs" to be outside. Or unspayed. And I love cats. That's part of why I agree with this.

Most dog owners are dumbasses and dogs do plenty of destructive shit also. I've personally witnessed dogs tear up more animals, including nesting mallard females, than any other animal, with the owners desperately trying to stop and control them. Cats are more discreet, I guess.

Just googled Russian Cat Circus. I'm rarely surprised by human cruelty at this point, but still I always wonder. What the actual FUCK is wrong with people? How do so many come of age devoid of critical thinking skills and/or ethically bereft?

Sea World is not a sentient being, with personal agency for good or ill. (I know you use the name as shorthand for the collective in your first sentence; I'm just venting.) Increasingly I think the anthropomorphization of such entities gives the average asshole an implicit pass and thereby exacerbates the problem. The average asshole doing the devil's work = each person who buys a ticket.

I agree that many dog owners are incompetent and grossly irresponsible with regard to their pets.

 

[Keroin]

Still, cats are perfectly happy INside, if you start them out right.

Meh, I'm 50/50 on this. Some cats are perfectly happy inside, yes. But I've also seen cats kept indoors that I can say were miserable. My cat Emily would have gone insane if I'd kept her in - and she would have driven me insane in the process.

Also, weight is a bigger issue for indoor cats. I have a friend who grew up in a rural area and after losing one too many cats to "the great outdoors" - predators, vehicles, etc., her mom declared that all cats would be indoor cats from that day forward. Their next cat died young...of diabetes. Too fat, not enough exercise.

Cat training isn't easy. It's much different than dog training. But it doesn't have to be cruel. And it's also about what you "don't" train them. Kittens raised chasing feathery toys?

Also, I have to share this: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=mWhD5bc6Fmg&vq=large Cat and owl as pals.

 

[Netzach]

Meh, I'm 50/50 on this. Some cats are perfectly happy inside, yes. But I've also seen cats kept indoors that I can say were miserable. My cat Emily would have gone insane if I'd kept her in - and she would have driven me insane in the process.

Also, weight is a bigger issue for indoor cats. I have a friend who grew up in a rural area and after losing one too many cats to "the great outdoors" - predators, vehicles, etc., her mom declared that all cats would be indoor cats from that day forward. Their next cat died young...of diabetes. Too fat, not enough exercise.

Cat training isn't easy. It's much different than dog training. But it doesn't have to be cruel. And it's also about what you "don't" train them. Kittens raised chasing feathery toys?

Also, I have to share this: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=mWhD5bc6Fmg&vq=large Cat and owl as pals.

Land cat and sky cat, I love it.

The weight issues I've seen with indoor cats have all been people who can't bear to refuse the cat anything and do "feed at will" long after the cat is shaped like a beach ball with a head.

 

[Netzach]

Just googled Russian Cat Circus. I'm rarely surprised by human cruelty at this point, but still I always wonder. What the actual FUCK is wrong with people? How do so many come of age devoid of critical thinking skills and/or ethically bereft?

Sea World is not a sentient being, with personal agency for good or ill. (I know you use the name as shorthand for the collective in your first sentence; I'm just venting.) Increasingly I think the anthropomorphization of such entities gives the average asshole an implicit pass and thereby exacerbates the problem. The average asshole doing the devil's work = each person who buys a ticket.

I agree that many dog owners are incompetent and grossly irresponsible with regard to their pets.

You are right, it's the fact that people are not clued and keep buying tickets. However, the way that Sea World has dealt with this same problem as a workplace safety issue (even if you disagree with the nature of the work these people are doing) it's another level of grossness.

These are idealistic people who think they're doing some conservation and enrichment good for the species and the animals they work with. Sea World has endangered them over and over for profit.

 

[Loverskitten]

Sheesh, stay off lit for a bit and this thread took a strange turn.

First of all, hating on cats is not going to make me like orcas.
Also, I'm not watching any videos of any animal attacks or such, I'm not even going to chance it. What has been seen, can not be unseen.

Also, my 2 kitties are indoor only. Mainly to protect them from predators (including people who do some awful stuff to kitties) They get out occasionally during my son's attempts at leash training. They just flop and roll in the dirt happily and want back in. Outside is scary to them.

Might I add, bull fighting, rodeos, and the lovely running of the bulls to this thread? What the hell

 

[Netzach]

I can't compare horse shows, or even bull running or cat circus to Sea World, because I'm unashamed of being an intelligence chauvenist to some degree. Horses are bred to do our dirty work and bulls are bread to help us with beef. There's no need to be intentionally awful to these creatures, but there's no need to devote phd programs to developing captive enrichment programs for them either.

Yanking a hyper-intelligent social mammal out of its pod for a lifetime of jumping hoops - something land zoos can no longer casually do for their collections, I might add - is a special cruel.

I feel worse for a Gorilla kept in a miserable cement cell than a kangaroo rat in same, call me unfeeling if you must.

 

[JMohegan]

I can't compare horse shows, or even bull running or cat circus to Sea World, because I'm unashamed of being an intelligence chauvenist to some degree. Horses are bred to do our dirty work and bulls are bread to help us with beef. There's no need to be intentionally awful to these creatures, but there's no need to devote phd programs to developing captive enrichment programs for them either.

Yanking a hyper-intelligent social mammal out of its pod for a lifetime of jumping hoops - something land zoos can no longer casually do for their collections, I might add - is a special cruel.

I feel worse for a Gorilla kept in a miserable cement cell than a kangaroo rat in same, call me unfeeling if you must.

This is why I perceive a big difference between eating factory farmed chicken and factory farmed pig, the latter being a far more egregious violation of any conceivable ethical standard.

 

[JMohegan]

Sheesh, stay off lit for a bit and this thread took a strange turn.

First of all, hating on cats is not going to make me like orcas.
Also, I'm not watching any videos of any animal attacks or such, I'm not even going to chance it. What has been seen, can not be unseen.

Also, my 2 kitties are indoor only. Mainly to protect them from predators (including people who do some awful stuff to kitties) They get out occasionally during my son's attempts at leash training. They just flop and roll in the dirt happily and want back in. Outside is scary to them.

Might I add, bull fighting, rodeos, and the lovely running of the bulls to this thread? What the hell

The point you've apparently missed is that domestic cats, when unrestrained and outdoors, display the exact same behaviors that get orcas labeled evil in your book. (See your previous comments, re-quoted below.)

Hence my observation that your remarks were curious.

Orcas are evil creatures. Evil

Orcas are one of the few species who will hunt just for fun, torture, and play with prey.

 

[JMohegan]

You are right, it's the fact that people are not clued and keep buying tickets. However, the way that Sea World has dealt with this same problem as a workplace safety issue (even if you disagree with the nature of the work these people are doing) it's another level of grossness.

These are idealistic people who think they're doing some conservation and enrichment good for the species and the animals they work with. Sea World has endangered them over and over for profit.

Sea World executives are more culpable than others in the collective, I agree.

Possibly someone will find a way to bring them down with OSHA, or personal injury/ wrongful death lawsuits.

 

[Keroin]

First of all, hating on cats is not going to make me like orcas.

This is the part I don't get, no matter who I hear it from.

I don't like or dislike any animals based on their behaviour. Animals "are". Trying to impose human ethics and ideals onto them is nonsensical. As is naming an animal "evil". And I don't have to like an animal to understand that human cruelty toward them, especially when that cruelty is just for our entertainment, is wrong. So, yes, bull fights, rodeos, and such are on my "do not support" list, too.

As a water person, I simply have a special leaning toward marine mammals. In that regard, I am biased.

 

[Netzach]

This is why I perceive a big difference between eating factory farmed chicken and factory farmed pig, the latter being a far more egregious violation of any conceivable ethical standard.

Enlightened self interest keeps me steering clear of both whenever possible!

 

[Loverskitten]

The point you've apparently missed is that domestic cats, when unrestrained and outdoors, display the exact same behaviors that get orcas labeled evil in your book. (See your previous comments, re-quoted below.)

Hence my observation that your remarks were curious.

See, I think your comparison is apples and oranges. Now if humans bred orcas and they had litters of babies and then we discarded them into the wild after they had too many babies or weren't cute anymore... then I can see the comparison.
Without over breeding or captivity, or even hunger, they're cruel, evil things.
Cockroaches, fleas, orcas... Satan's spawn. Where's the movie "Flea Willy"?

 

[Loverskitten]

This is the part I don't get, no matter who I hear it from.

I don't like or dislike any animals based on their behaviour. Animals "are". Trying to impose human ethics and ideals onto them is nonsensical. As is naming an animal "evil". And I don't have to like an animal to understand that human cruelty toward them, especially when that cruelty is just for our entertainment, is wrong. So, yes, bull fights, rodeos, and such are on my "do not support" list, too.

As a water person, I simply have a special leaning toward marine mammals. In that regard, I am biased.

I wish I had a nickel for every guy who said they "hate cats" like it's a macho man thing.

 

[Netzach]

See, I think your comparison is apples and oranges. Now if humans bred orcas and they had litters of babies and then we discarded them into the wild after they had too many babies or weren't cute anymore... then I can see the comparison.
Without over breeding or captivity, or even hunger, they're cruel, evil things.
Cockroaches, fleas, orcas... Satan's spawn. Where's the movie "Flea Willy"?

Leopard seals are filmed doing the same thing with penguins, killing for "fun." I personally think that it's a skill set to catch one's prey and without learning you're pretty doomed. Sometimes class time happens when you're not hungry too bad so sad.

I guess if the world's dolphins could just get jobs in PR orcas wouldn't have to eat whales or know how to do so.

Being higher on the food chain is not always enviable. Hunt success rates are almost always 1 in 3 or even 5? I can't remember. I'd rather be something scavenger and ugly and non-tasty, like a vulture, than a prey or a predatory animal.

I think this whole "evil" thing is completely laughable. Really, it's nature. It's laughing at the entire idea.

 

[JMohegan]

Enlightened self interest keeps me steering clear of both whenever possible!

Ha! Yes, that too, definitely.

 

[JMohegan]

See, I think your comparison is apples and oranges. Now if humans bred orcas and they had litters of babies and then we discarded them into the wild after they had too many babies or weren't cute anymore... then I can see the comparison.
Without over breeding or captivity, or even hunger, they're cruel, evil things.
Cockroaches, fleas, orcas... Satan's spawn. Where's the movie "Flea Willy"?

Ditto Netzach, and this is just goofy.

Did you know that lionesses have been filmed killing baby cheetahs - entire litters - and just leaving them there, uneaten?

Eliminating future competition in chasing gazelles could be a life-saving decision with regard to the lioness' own family. Cruel and evil? No, that's not even mean, it's just nature. You know, survival of the fittest.

 

[Primalex]

Hm.

If we apply the trait 'evil' to an animal, then we must also grant the animal sufficient consciousness for it to recognize its evil actions otherwise it would be like blaming a mushroom for being poisonous or a venus flytrap for catching flies.

Now if we do this, the only logical choice would be to grant these sufficient sentient animals basically the same rights the constitution grants humans. So killing an Orca would be murder and capturing one, illegal restraint.

Hm.

 

[Primalex]

Eliminating future competition in chasing gazelles could be a life-saving decision with regard to the lioness' own family. Cruel and evil? No, that's not even mean, it's just nature. You know, survival of the fittest.

I kill my coworker to get a raise. The raise makes sure that I get better medical care for my family. Is this now evil, mean or just nature?

 

[Loverskitten]

Hm.

If we apply the trait 'evil' to an animal, then we must also grant the animal sufficient consciousness for it to recognize its evil actions otherwise it would be like blaming a mushroom for being poisonous or a venus flytrap for catching flies.

Now if we do this, the only logical choice would be to grant these sufficient sentient animals basically the same rights the constitution grants humans. So killing an Orca would be murder and capturing one, illegal restraint.

Hm.

PEOPLE DO THIS WITH KILLER WHALES AND DOLPHINS ALL THE TIME! They have thee best PR, which is part of my issue with all these movies!