Biderman's Chart of Coercion

[s'lara]

After doing some reading today, i happened on an article discussing a study done in the 1950's concerning U.S. military survivors of the Korean War. From that study, a researcher (Biderman) created a chart which outlined the steps taken to break a person or more to the point, mentally strip them down with the intent to manipulate.

The Biderman Chart of Coercion was published by Amnesty International (1970's) in its report on torture; specifically, torture of pow's and the methods used to brainwash said prisoners. From that report arose the comparison by experts in the DV field that the techniques used on pow's was very similar to the cycle victims of domestic violence go through. The chart is considered to be one of the definitive tools in helping others to identify DV victims as well as helping DV victims identify their relationships as DV situations.

As i read through Biderman's breakdown, i realized that the process is somewhat similar to training a submissive/slave. While some aspects of the process are truly unhealthy, there are ideal methods that could be applicable to preparing a sub/slave for ownership. When i speak in terms of similarity, i am talking about the mental conditioning necessary to remove complete autonomy from the submissive. The chart reminded me of the internal enslavement article we all recently discussed and i found this chart fascinating

What say you? Are the steps towards mental domination that simple?

This thread is in no way meant as commentary on POW's, victim's of DV or the current issues with Iraqi prisoners taken by coalition forces. The chart was read without coupling any of these issues to the methods described by Biderman. To put it simply, it is a superficial look at how this process is reminiscent (to a degree) of sub/slave conditioning. It certainly isn't meant to belittle POW's or victims of DV. Finally, the comparison to sub/slave training is not to meant to shine a negative light on the practice and shouldn't be viewed as such. As the chart is clearly in reference to enforcing negative control/abuse of another, it should be apparent that sub/slave training does not and should not mirror the methods described below.

___________________________________
Biderman's Chart of Coercion


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"Most people who brainwash...use methods similar to those of prison guards who recognize that physical control is never easily accomplished without the cooperation of the prisoner. The most effective way to gain that cooperation is through subversive manipulation of the mind and feelings of the victim, who then becomes a psychological, as well as a physical, prisoner." -- from an Amnesty International publication, "Report on Torture", which depicts the brainwashing of prisoners of war.
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Isolation: Deprives victim of all social support [necessary for the] ability to resist. Develops an intense concern with self. Makes victim dependent upon interrogator.

Monopolization of Perception: Fixes attention upon immediate predicament; fosters introspection. Eliminates stimuli competing with those controlled by the captor. Frustrates all actions not consistent with compliance.

Induced Debility & Exhaustion: Weakens mental and physical ability to resist.

Threats: Cultivates anxiety and despair.

Occasional Indulgences: Provides positive motivation for compliance.

Demonstrating "Omnipotence": Suggests futility of resistance.

Enforcing Trivial Demands: Develops habit of compliance.

Degradation: Makes cost of resistance appear more damaging to self-esteem than capitulation. Reduces prisoner [abuse victim] to "animal level" concerns.

 

[Quint]

Yes, read in the right context, that was quite delicious. Good psychological profile. Very victim-oriented, however, which is the main reason I see it not applying to many of the relationships that would otherwise support such brutal treatment.

Nice find, lara.

 

[catalina_francisco]

As a counsellor specialising in DV, this was a chart used often as you say, and it did make the picture a lot clearer for women caught in the vortex of violence. Though there are similariities for D/s, I tend to see them as subtle and far removed from those used on POW's and DV victims, and more importantly, for subs and slaves, theyare at least consensual in their intent. I think the Dom/me who chose to use this chart as a guide to achieving their goal would more likely end up with a broken sub/slave, possibly irreparably, and definately abused as opposed to dominated in the D/s sense.

Perhaps there are a very few of us who would be strong enough to endure and emerge whole, and some who might welcome it, but not many if it were adhered to on every point and without positive reinforcement and time out which is the case with the POW and DV victims it is referenced for. The relentless use of these methods without let up is what creates the breaking of the mind, not the nurturing of submission. It is a process which is used 24/7 in the true sense of the word, no time out while sleeping, parenting, cooking dinner, waiting for the D to return from a day's work...just constant and relentless abuse.

Catalina

 

[shy slave]

Lara ~good thread for discussion.
Can't help but wonder if it is this sort of cyclic pattern of breaking people that gives practioners of BDSM a negative feel to those who choose a vanilla lifestyle.

for subs and slaves, theyare at least consensual in their intent. I think the Dom/me who chose to use this chart as a guide to achieving their goal would more likely end up with a broken sub/slave, possibly irreparably, and definately abused as opposed to dominated in the D/s sense.

To me the consensual aspect of BDSM, is the most important componant. We often talk of hard/soft limits and moving bounderies but subs/slaves need to have a strong sense of self to know when to say 'enough'

Isolation ~ I have read some posts on here that give indications that those sub/slaves maybe isolated from friends or family, unless they have approval. That concerns me in a BDSM lifestyle, as it would possible to end up with the Stockholm Theory (is that the right wording?) with the Dom/me taking the role of be-friended captor.
Of more concern is those sub/slaves who are completly isolated from internet interaction as well as face-to-face.
Would there come a point when they would remain steadfast in the opinion that they are consenting to isolation, yet have been isolated to the point that they feel anxious, panic, fear at interaction with others outside of those known to the Dom/Me.
If so do they actually want 'releasing' or 'saved' from this life? As is the case of re-adjustment after long-term imprisonment. It is difficult to start being around others and take on responsibilities again.

Demonstrating Omnipotence ~ Within full consent there is little resistance. The resistance in this lifestyle could be seen to be set through limits laid out by the Dom/Me or sub. However the moving of bounderies then makes this a 'grey area.'
For me it is the communication that develops through the verbal and non-verbal language at minute level during a scene enables both parties to understand that neither is Omnipotent, and mistakes occur. I seen to remember reading a post from RR that said it those moments when something happens and you end up falling off the bed etc that makes special parts of memories (forgive me if i have this attributed to the wrong Dom).
Difficult to find a Dom Omnipotent if He has just landed you on your head in error!

Perhaps there are a very few of us who would be strong enough to endure and emerge whole, and some who might welcome it, The relentless use of these methods without let up is what creates the breaking of the mind, not the nurturing of submission.
Catalina

I like Catalinas thinking that these methods break the mind (and spirit) and does not nurture submission.
However if used with machavillian intent and long-term planning it may be possible to use these steps to produce a willing doormat. Particularly with clever use of 'occasional indulgences.' That started off playing into the average psyche then making it more specific to the individual psyche. Playing on fears, being praised for something they have little confidence in their abilities to perform and in contrast ignoring their 'real'skills. Over a long period of time this confusion would mean they had to rely totally on the Dom/Me not on their own intuition to ensure they had something'right.'

This does seem like steps towards mental domination and, whilst ,it is easy to think that people on here would not resort to using these tactics relentlessly it is impossible to ignore the potential is there.
I think it is my internal arrogance that makes me think that those who bother to read or post here are already have a belief in SSC and are therefore already talking to the converted.

IMHO It is those who believe or say they are in D/s relationships when it is actually abuse by any other name that have corrolations with Bidermans chart and BDSM.

Lara after this lengthy post ~ yes I do think that this is a chart that outlines steps towards mental abuse, if all aspects were interplayed over a long period of time, and to the maximum degree within a D/s relationship.
For me the one differing aspect in D/s is consent.
[We have had a thread on consent that was interesting, so won't go there]

Mmmm i love threads that make me think

 

[rosco rathbone]

Fascinating.

I have been subjecting myself to those conditions since I was 10. The CIA ought to hire me...I'm unbreakable.

 

[shy slave]

Fascinating.

I have been subjecting myself to those conditions since I was 10. The CIA ought to hire me...I'm unbreakable.

No comment

 

[s'lara]

Thanks for the comments so far.

Cat - i am well aware that enforcement of all of Biderman's steps would likely produce an obedient, but broken submissive. Hence my disclaimers. What i found to be fascinating are the seemingly parallel methods to training a sub/slave. While the methods described are certainly abusive, if modified, i think they could replicate, to an extent, the steps required to assume complete control of another person; mind and body provided such control was meant to enhance/support the sub/slave. i agree that it would be counterproductive to implement these steps in training a submissive.

shyslave - Thanks for your analysis. i think you were talking about the Stockholm Syndrome. That's also similar, however, the victim comes to feel a kinship with his/her captors and eventually sees their rescuers as the threat. i share your hope that those who read the posts here are savvy enough to know that using Biderman's chart isn't the way to cultivate a healthy, happy submissive. But to be honest, there are those who use these very tactics to control other people and do so with intention to harm. While my post highlights the potential to use the chart positively (with much needed revision and implementation of support/nurturing as mentioned by Cat), i also hope it serves to be a red flag for those who are wondering if their current interactions/training are healthy.

RR - Subjecting yourself to these methods is a far sight different than having to endure such treatment from another. i am sure there was a thread (runaway OT thread) where it was discussed whether Dominant's should endure sub-like conditions (good, bad and extreme) in order to appreciate the experience. Not sure i agree, but my ruminations on the possibility are undecided. i always wondered if a Dominant hand would be checked or fueled by such a trial. Guess that depends on the Dominant.

Quint - Thanks Q. The chart does disturb still waters.

lara

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Lara ~good thread for discussion.
...


To me the consensual aspect of BDSM, is the most important componant. We often talk of hard/soft limits and moving bounderies but subs/slaves need to have a strong sense of self to know when to say 'enough'

In a more immediate sense, even with a strong sense of self, it can be easy for some of us to get into subspace and not even feel the physical hurt which could mean damage. I remember once thinking vaguely from far away 'this will probably hurt tomorrow.' How much more difficult is it to recognize longterm, gradual emotional damage in yourself? Especially when caused by someone you love.

Isolation ~ I have read some posts on here that give indications that those sub/slaves maybe isolated from friends or family, unless they have approval. That concerns me in a BDSM lifestyle, as it would possible to end up with the Stockholm Theory (is that the right wording?) with the Dom/me taking the role of be-friended captor.
Of more concern is those sub/slaves who are completly isolated from internet interaction as well as face-to-face.
Would there come a point when they would remain steadfast in the opinion that they are consenting to isolation, yet have been isolated to the point that they feel anxious, panic, fear at interaction with others outside of those known to the Dom/Me.
If so do they actually want 'releasing' or 'saved' from this life? As is the case of re-adjustment after long-term imprisonment. It is difficult to start being around others and take on responsibilities again.

Demonstrating Omnipotence ~ Within full consent there is little resistance. The resistance in this lifestyle could be seen to be set through limits laid out by the Dom/Me or sub. However the moving of bounderies then makes this a 'grey area.'
For me it is the communication that develops through the verbal and non-verbal language at minute level during a scene enables both parties to understand that neither is Omnipotent, and mistakes occur. I seen to remember reading a post from RR that said it those moments when something happens and you end up falling off the bed etc that makes special parts of memories (forgive me if i have this attributed to the wrong Dom).
Difficult to find a Dom Omnipotent if He has just landed you on your head in error!

Which speaks to another warning sign: can you laugh together? How narrow is what this person allows you to laugh at?

Do 24/7 Masters ever allow their slave to laugh at them? I don't mean scoff. Do they ever laugh at themselves? I'm truly curious.

However if used with machavillian intent and long-term planning it may be possible to use these steps to produce a willing doormat. Particularly with clever use of 'occasional indulgences.' That started off playing into the average psyche then making it more specific to the individual psyche. Playing on fears, being praised for something they have little confidence in their abilities to perform and in contrast ignoring their 'real'skills. Over a long period of time this confusion would mean they had to rely totally on the Dom/Me not on their own intuition to ensure they had something'right.'

You definitely have something here. I've been thinking about this thread off and on all day. It really pushed some buttons.

Some of the other tricks are accusing the person of the very thing you are doing -- being machiavellian and manipulative, for instance. Doing lots of phoney mindreading, such as 'you really wanted that.' Fake psychology is good too, such as 'understanding' and shaming the sub for her masochism, for instance.

Another good trick, if you have more than one, is to turn them against each other -- for instance, beat the others to get one to confess, and make it clear to those being beaten that it will stop if the one confesses. This one is really juicy if completely made up, so that any 'confession' will be fake. You can do that whole praise thing, ignoring their real skills and such, as mentioned above, even better if you have several. Tell the ugly one she's pretty, the pretty one she's ugly, etc. Laugh at a serious infraction, and beat for something very minor.

It helps if you can keep them in a really bad part of town so they will be scared to go out, though this shouldn't be necessary after a few years, especially if you then move them to a very upscale place and dress them in cheap rags, and/or limit their grooming.

 

[shy slave]

You definitely have something here. I've been thinking about this thread off and on all day. It really pushed some buttons.

Some of the other tricks are accusing the person of the very thing you are doing -- being machiavellian and manipulative, for instance. Doing lots of phoney mindreading, such as 'you really wanted that.' Fake psychology is good too, such as 'understanding' and shaming the sub for her masochism, for instance.

Another good trick, if you have more than one, is to turn them against each other -- for instance, beat the others to get one to confess, and make it clear to those being beaten that it will stop if the one confesses. This one is really juicy if completely made up, so that any 'confession' will be fake. You can do that whole praise thing, ignoring their real skills and such, as mentioned above, even better if you have several. Tell the ugly one she's pretty, the pretty one she's ugly, etc. Laugh at a serious infraction, and beat for something very minor.

It helps if you can keep them in a really bad part of town so they will be scared to go out, though this shouldn't be necessary after a few years, especially if you then move them to a very upscale place and dress them in cheap rags, and/or limit their grooming.

Lara I think your post has both phoenix and i considering the maciavellian and manipulative intent of Dom/Mes at length.

In hindsight not sure if we are feeding unsavory thoughts & ideas to Dom/Mes or realising that we have the mental imagery to make us unethical and very scary Dommes.

Now off to think things through again

 

[Pure]

lara, that's interesting stuff.

rather than all the disclaimers

To put it simply, it is a superficial look at how this process is reminiscent (to a degree) of sub/slave conditioning.

think of it as like surgery. it can be used for good or ill (cut out a tumor or a heart). and there are more, or less, drastic surgeries--removing a wart, or reconstructing a heart valve.

think of it like the training of priests, and

like the training of young children, by their parents (quasi omnipotent figures)

iow, the derogatory labels like 'brainwashing' or 'coercive' are usually applied to the 'other fellow' (or purposes we dont approve) just as we say, s/he's in a 'cult,' whereas we have a religion.

as to consent, you yourself stated the classification scheme has been applied to domestic situations, and unless you're talking Afghanistan, those in our area, i remind you, are consensual.

there is some ongoing debate about the negative stuff: many brainwashers/interrogators say you catch more flies with honey.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Unless of course they are masochistic flies.

 

[s'lara]

Lara I think your post has both phoenix and i considering the maciavellian and manipulative intent of Dom/Mes at length.

In hindsight not sure if we are feeding unsavory thoughts & ideas to Dom/Mes or realising that we have the mental imagery to make us unethical and very scary Dommes.

Now off to think things through again

Whether someone takes the methods described in Biderman's chart and applies them in a negative way is up to the reader. We can only discourage the use of these exact steps.

i guess feeding additional ideas to the masses, along the lines of Biderman's chart, is a matter of personal choice.

Along the lines of your post shy, we might want to consider something. It is the intent of the Dominant to manipulate the submissive. To gain control of another takes manipulation, training and forthright enforcement of power. To believe that the assumption of control is obtained without some manipulation (i.e., molding and shaping of a psyche) is not fully realistic. i would say that some of the ideas re manipulation are good ones. Whether the Dominant is unable to handle the same kind of manipulation, or "take what they put out" is irrelavant. To one who seeks power exchange, it isn't about making sure whether Dominant party is capable of handling the same ... it is about making sure they can handle freely offered submission. At least that is my own thinking. I don't have a need to see whether the Dominant can handle a bastinado or not. i'd rather see exemplars of strength, intelligence and honesty.

lara

 

[s'lara]

lara, that's interesting stuff.

rather than all the disclaimers

To put it simply, it is a superficial look at how this process is reminiscent (to a degree) of sub/slave conditioning.

think of it as like surgery. it can be used for good or ill (cut out a tumor or a heart). and there are more, or less, drastic surgeries--removing a wart, or reconstructing a heart valve.

think of it like the training of priests, and

like the training of young children, by their parents (quasi omnipotent figures)

iow, the derogatory labels like 'brainwashing' or 'coercive' are usually applied to the 'other fellow' (or purposes we dont approve) just as we say, s/he's in a 'cult,' whereas we have a religion.

as to consent, you yourself stated the classification scheme has been applied to domestic situations, and unless you're talking Afghanistan, those in our area, i remind you, are consensual.

there is some ongoing debate about the negative stuff: many brainwashers/interrogators say you catch more flies with honey.

imo, the disclaimers were necessary. There are laws in place concerning the public display of information and products that may be harmful to others. While i know the choice to implement a potentially harmful practice is up to the "user", i am not entirely divested from the feeling of responsibility when i offer such questionable practices up for public consumption. Will it keep someone from utilizing the wrongful version of the chart? Not necessarily, but i certainly can offer my opinion on the topic without condoning the entire chart.

As to applying Biderman's steps to our "area" and the application of consent, i don't believe i specifically addressed that issue. i think it safe to assume in the land of SSC or RACK that should Biderman's chart provide a basis for sub/slave training, consent would be the chief requirement above all else. While i appreciate the reminder, i wouldn't venture to assume that all who read here are of a lofty pursuit. i can only hope that those who do read these posts are aware that consent is the primary requisite. Never hurts to reiterate the obvious Pure and thanks.

lara

 

[shy slave]

Along the lines of your post shy, we might want to consider something. It is the intent of the Dominant to manipulate the submissive. To gain control of another takes manipulation, training and forthright enforcement of power. To believe that the assumption of control is obtained without some manipulation (i.e., molding and shaping of a psyche) is not fully realistic. i would say that some of the ideas re manipulation are good ones. Whether the Dominant is unable to handle the same kind of manipulation, or "take what they put out" is irrelavant. To one who seeks power exchange, it isn't about making sure whether Dominant party is capable of handling the same ... it is about making sure they can handle freely offered submission. At least that is my own thinking.

There have been comments in other threads taking issue with the idea the Doms should understand what it feels like to be a sub. I seem to remember a post of Richard49 who said He had had to sub to a Dom for two years in order to call himself a Dom (please correct me Richard if I have that all wrong).

I understand the concept that in order to empathise you must first experience it. On the other hand we give money etc to third world countries yet we have not experienced the hardships of their lives.

Dom/Mes and sub/slaves having differing needs, just as switches have differing needs at different times.

With regard to manipulation, for me, it is whether the sub is aware or unaware of the manipulation that occurs or occurred.

Punishment and mind fucks can be seen as part of manipulation. Training a sub using particular measures to curb behavioural responses as with Pavlovs Dogs. It is likely the sub would be aware of this form of manipulation, ~ 'You are being punished because...'

The type of actual mind fuck from Pures earlier thread would appear to be to be manipulation that the sub is not aware of, as are the aspects of 'occasional indugences' from Bidermans chart.

Manipulation without the sub being aware at some point of the manipulated (before, during or after)or without being given a reason for its occurance; is (to me) using particular skills to confuse or break a sub not helping to nurture and expand their abilities.

I agree that there needs to be some form of manipulation in order for both parties to grow and trust each other, it is the way that manipulation occurs that could be seen as not SSC but abusive.

Dom/Mes who use manipulation techniques in line with their own hidden agendas, or a lack of knowledge about the long-term effects is always going to be a concern for those who do not advocate that subs need to be broken in order to be seen as a 'perfect' sub/slave.

QUOTE]Originally posted by s'lara

I don't have a need to see whether the Dominant can handle a bastinado or not. i'd rather see exemplars of strength, intelligence and honesty.

I completly agree, I have no wish to see a Dom/Me on there hands and knees degraded etc as this is not want they wish for in life; and could again be considered abuse.
It would certainly not make them happy. Nor is it likely to help them understand or empathise with what a sub/slave feels, due to differing needs, triggers, pain thresholds, past experiences etc.

I would rather see that the trust I give when submitting is returned through their strength of character, care and concern.

shy slave

 

[Hisownprecious]

What say you? Are the steps towards mental domination that simple?

This thread is in no way meant as commentary on POW's, victim's of DV or the current issues with Iraqi prisoners taken by coalition forces. The chart was read without coupling any of these issues to the methods described by Biderman. To put it simply, it is a superficial look at how this process is reminiscent (to a degree) of sub/slave conditioning. It certainly isn't meant to belittle POW's or victims of DV. Finally, the comparison to sub/slave training is not to meant to shine a negative light on the practice and shouldn't be viewed as such. As the chart is clearly in reference to enforcing negative control/abuse of another, it should be apparent that sub/slave training does not and should not mirror the methods described below.

___________________________________
Biderman's Chart of Coercion


Isolation: Deprives victim of all social support [necessary for the] ability to resist. Develops an intense concern with self. Makes victim dependent upon interrogator.

Monopolization of Perception: Fixes attention upon immediate predicament; fosters introspection. Eliminates stimuli competing with those controlled by the captor. Frustrates all actions not consistent with compliance.

Induced Debility & Exhaustion: Weakens mental and physical ability to resist.

Threats: Cultivates anxiety and despair.

Occasional Indulgences: Provides positive motivation for compliance.

Demonstrating "Omnipotence": Suggests futility of resistance.

Enforcing Trivial Demands: Develops habit of compliance.

Degradation: Makes cost of resistance appear more damaging to self-esteem than capitulation. Reduces prisoner [abuse victim] to "animal level" concerns.

A little about me. Years ago i had a friend who joined a church. The church was one i had never heard of and my friend urged me to come out and see what it was all about. i began to study with this church soon after starting to attend. i became a member on a warm June night in 1993. The night i was welcomed into this "family" was the first active instance of being physically separated from my family. my mother attended the service before the ceremony, but balked when told that it was a bit of a travel to the site. i was urged to decide. 'It's biblical,' i was told. i was quoted scripture that said that my blood family would leave me and the church was all i needed. i was told that Jesus went through the same thing, that he had to make the same decisions. i had just been through the studies, finishing the last only the day before. i was ripe. These studies, i look back and believe, were geared toward making one see the complete and utter futility of living life without, not any sort of God, but really without this church. i was shown how horrible my life had been and what the church could do for me.

i went with them, telling my mother, as i grabbed my bag from her car, that this is what God wanted me to do. i left them, believing with all my heart that they were being used as tools of the devil. We darted off into the night, a caravan of weary travelers. i was reminded time and time again that this was the way it was in the bible. Having to steal your salvation from satan in the dead of night was the way the original followers became disciples. i came up out of the water and i felt it. i felt such euphoria at becoming a part of them, becoming one of the chosen. By October of that year i had been convinced that it would be better to live in a church house than anywhere else. During the course of my stay with them i remember waking up and being told that the congregation as a whole was fasting that day. my first reaction was to ask if i was "allowed" to feed my children. Trust me, they would have eaten, regardless. i was, however, shocked to be answered with a hesitation. i was told, 'if they get hungry, feed them'. Not, feed them, they are children, what do they need to fast for, no...feed them if they get hungry. This was the beginning of the end for me. By the following April i had had enough. i left. i took what i could carry in the back of an el camino and split.

For years i would go back and forth. i would return to them among a flurry of tears and hugs. They would forgive my doubts, my troubles and my fears. All of these would be dismissed to satan's influence and a hard heart. Nothing was legitimately addressed. Every time i would go back, though, i would repeat the studies. i was told that at the end of the studies i would write a letter to the congregation telling them why i had left, not the real reasons, just admitting my sin of doubt. The letter would be my apology for my sins against the church and against God. It would be the signal that i would be treated as one of them once again. i never wrote that letter. A few times i got close. i got to the point in the studies where i simply had to write it and i would be "home" again. i would have pen and paper set before me and nothing would come out.

i look at this chart and i can tell you of instances of every point listed in my history with this church. We were quoted staggering numbers of people who had killed themselves after leaving the church. Honestly, i looked at this thread and it all came flooding back to me. For years after i would think about going back. Even with all that had happened while i was there, all that i had seen and experienced, i still thought about it.

*deep breath*

What say you? Are the steps towards mental domination that simple?

i have never been a prisoner of war. This is my experience. i can not imagine that what they did to me, and still do to others, is in any way comparable with what a P.O.W goes through. i can say this...to this day i get a pain in my belly when even thinking about attenting any sort of Christian church. We were taught only they were God's church and any others were simply deceiving their members. i go down town and get fidgety thinking that i'm going to see one of them, steeling myself against that possibility. i look at my time with them and refuse to deny my own fault in it all. People have told me that it was brainwashing, what they did. i refuse to put blame completely on them. i believe myself to be an intelligent person, strong willed when i need to be. i take my blame in what i did, in what i allowed myself to go through. i have spoken about this with a few people. It has been suggested that my taking the blame for it all is them still having their hands in my psyche.

"Mental domination"...hmm...i was ripe for the plucking. They knew my history from my friend who had joined before me. He had briefed them quite thoroughly on me after my first time at a gathering, i found out later. How simple it is depends, i think, on the situation of the person that one is trying to control. They had me. When i first went i had been though a horrible time in my life. They knew that. So, if it is agreed that these steps are followed and that they worked, then all it took for them to be in my head was eight days. That's how long my studies took, just those eight days. Two women, following a prescribed study plan, a few lunches and i was in. During the course of those eight days i was taken on a rollercoaster ride of emotion. i was stretched and strained to my limit. Then they pushed some more. You would have never guessed what it was that was going on had you seen us sitting there...so prim and proper.

Simple answer. Yes.

If that is what is agreed upon. i, however, as i said, can't bring myself to lay blame or fault completely on them. i walked into it. i walked out, eventually. Honestly, i wish i could easily say, 'hell, yeah, they did it...they twisted me into a lump of clay and reshaped me into THEIR image'. i can't say that, though, i have never been able to. Is this part of what they strive for in their own little brand of domination? Maybe. Maybe they know that some will eventually split and they plant in us that small seed of doubt. That one persistent thought that says to us that we were not taken, only that we gave ourselves up to it.

Simple? Maybe a better answer would be sometimes. There are prisoners of war who are never broken. There are people who have gone through the same studies that i went through and never acquiesce. Those who stand, steel against the storm. If, however, the subject is ripe, then the simple answer is yes.

And it fucking stinks...

joanna

EDITED TO ADD:Not to the point, i'm sure. To make it worse, i tend to be a bit long winded when i get going. If you like i can edit it gone, no sweat...j

 

[shy slave]

Hisownprecious

'Don't edit it gone.'

I read it through twice.

You must be incredibly strong to survive that kind of treatment especially if they caught you at a low point in your life.

Your 'friend' (I use the word loosely) feeding them information about you and then the technique of eight days of full learning, does not allow you to draw breath, sit back and consider from an objective viewpoint what is happening.

Its clever manipulation and I have heard of many religious cults using similiar tactics. They seem to prey on those who are vulnerable and without protection for example new university students who are struggling to find their role.

Dare I ask if submitting to your PYL was difficult. The reason behind my curiousity is how difficult was it to allow someone else control over aspects of your life, after the experience you had with that particular church?

Lara said that to achieve control you have to have manipulation.
What do you think, having been through your particular experiences and now in a D/s relationship?
Do you think your PYL is manipulating you, as part of your relationship; and if so are you aware of when and why the manipulation occurs.

Sorry to bombard you with questions but I am full of admiration for you. Not only for realising what you did not want to follow but however difficult it may have been at times, you never went back

for courage

xx

 

[shy slave]

Hisownprecious

Oopsss how many times did i want to make my point again and....

 

[shy slave]

Hisownprecious

..............and again and and again obviously sorry for that everyone, but at least we saw AA pretty arrows

 

[Desdemona]

I can sort of see your point that some may use modified versions as part of training. Personally, it smacks of abuse to me and I would run, not walk, away. But that's just me.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Good Lord, shy ...

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/Blue_arrows.gif

the dreaded triple post from Hell.

Other than that, a good exchange on personal experience and reaction to said experience.

i find it interesting this study came about after the Korean War. The Forgotten War got totalled in the non-win category although servicemembers had endured Far East maltreatment during WWII only 6 years before. Strange that no one had documented anything concerning the Japanese approach to POWs. We also have Viet Nam, another non-win and probably more detailed documentation if anyone bothered to find it. All leading to the following quick aside. Military folks get training if their commanders/instructors have the brains to do so. Said training boils down to this simple precept.

If the opposing force decides to break you, you will break.

How you break determines your mental status and the opinions of your comrades in arms following said break. i had good teachers. One had "done time," another had gone through extensive SERE training and instructed at that training. Endurance boiled down to three simple rules:

• Give a little when you can take no more abuse, and what you give has to be true.
• Take solace that they didn't get everything they wanted.
• You mean nothing to them once you have given all and become expendable.

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Re: Hisownprecious

Dare I ask if submitting to your PYL was difficult. The reason behind my curiousity is how difficult was it to allow someone else control over aspects of your life, after the experience you had with that particular church?

I know this wasn't intended for me, but it speaks right to something important to me. Which is that such treatment takes us all differently.
I'll probably post on the 'where do you think your interest in this comes from' thread, but, in my case, having a background where this stuff was used on me (those machiavellian ideas I added, such as the punishing of some to make one to confess, weren't hypothetical) made it much harder for me to allow myself to do something about my interest in submission. And, even then, it's after being with someone who loves me, whom I love and whom I've known for a Loooooong time. Even so, he tells me I'm very hard to Dom.

Lara said that to achieve control you have to have manipulation.
What do you think, having been through your particular experiences and now in a D/s relationship?
Do you think your PYL is manipulating you, as part of your relationship; and if so are you aware of when and why the manipulation occurs.

Even if one is aware of the manipulation, it can still work, especially if you are isolated. Will probably keep coming back here a bit, as this one definitely pushes buttons.

 

[s'lara]

Re: Re: Biderman's Chart of Coercion

EDITED TO ADD:Not to the point, i'm sure. To make it worse, i tend to be a bit long winded when i get going. If you like i can edit it gone, no sweat...j [/B]

joanna, thank you for putting forth a story that surely has a connection to Biderman's chart. my further readings found this link which touches specifically on a situations such as yours. Not only do you need not to edit out your post, i'm glad to have the opportunity to read an experience such as yours. Your post certainly lends towards the topic. Victims of extreme cultism go through a process similar to what Biderman described. Glad to know you were able to remove yourself from a situation that wasn't healthy and happy for you and your children.

lara

 

[Hisownprecious]

Re: Hisownprecious

'Don't edit it gone.'

I read it through twice.

You must be incredibly strong to survive that kind of treatment especially if they caught you at a low point in your life.

Your 'friend' (I use the word loosely) feeding them information about you and then the technique of eight days of full learning, does not allow you to draw breath, sit back and consider from an objective viewpoint what is happening.

Its clever manipulation and I have heard of many religious cults using similiar tactics. They seem to prey on those who are vulnerable and without protection for example new university students who are struggling to find their role.

The 'friend' was someone with whom i had been involved for a while. He was caught up in it and thought that i would benefit as he had. More than anyone else he, i think, had my best interest at heart. It was the way they did things. He thought he was doing a good thing. He's still with them. i've spoken to him over the years. He wanted to leave time after time, and he expressed that to me. His life, though, was completely entangled in the church and he couldn't see any life for himself outside of them. Now he's married with at least one child. i haven't seen or spoken to him for a long time. Apparently one of the 'brothers' found out that we had still been speaking and reported him. That was the end of that.

Just as a side...the church that i was in vigorously recruited...no, i should say...they had a thriving "campus ministry". Still do, i hear.

Dare I ask if submitting to your PYL was difficult. The reason behind my curiousity is how difficult was it to allow someone else control over aspects of your life, after the experience you had with that particular church?

Lara said that to achieve control you have to have manipulation.
What do you think, having been through your particular experiences and now in a D/s relationship?
Do you think your PYL is manipulating you, as part of your relationship; and if so are you aware of when and why the manipulation occurs.

Ok, i'm thick, but the term PYL escapes me. i assume you speak of my Master, considering the context i'm reading it in.

The last time i attended any kind of gathering was November 1997. i have worked long and hard to put it behind me. You still would have a hard time, though, getting me into any kind of Christian church.

As for submitting to Him...i have had trust issues. These not remaining simply from the church but from various events in my life. i have been honest with Him about these. W/we have been trying to work through things, as best as can be done considering how W/we are at the moment. i was alone a long time. i'm not talking just about not being in a relationship, i mean no friends, no family, nothing. i separated myself for a long time from people, for several reasons, not just the church. Trusting, for me, is a hard thing. But i have come to realize that it's time. i am letting Him in...trusting finally. Is it a mistake? Is it something that i will be writing about as i have written here and in other places about the church? i hope with all that i am that i won't. i just need to let go. i believe that i am submissive in my heart. i know that for some it's something that is just something that is played at, or something that can be regimented to the bedroom. It's not that for me.

i have let them have me for far too long. i have let them hold me back. Even from going certain places and enjoying certain things that i would have had i not spent the time staying vigilant lest a church member appear. No longer. The thought of submitting, at first was a scary one for me. Thinking it through, though, i realized that it is something that i need to do. It is a part of me, just as my skin, my bones, my blood. It is in my heart beat. In my breath. i have defined about myself this aspect. i had been searching for what it is about me that was missing. i felt incomplete. i believe now that my submissive nature is what i was trying to find. The church was just one point on my path.

Is training manipulation? i believe so. However, there are different levels of and reasons behind manipulation. The church, i believe, tried to bend people to their will through subtle, subversive tactics. i know this may sound a bit harsh, but i was there, i'm actually being nice. my training as a sub...as His sub, is not like what the church was trying to do. i am walking into this with my eyes wide open. i know that there are things to come that i may have problems with. The difference, to me, is the motivation behind this manipulation. i can see a vast difference between the church's training and Master's. The church tried to break me to keep me broken. Under them i was reduced to thinking that without them i was nothing. That i had no power of my own and that all i was i owed to them. Master, even in O/our short time together, has shown me that i am stronger than i ever thought i was. i walk taller now, my back straighter. i am not afraid like i was before Him. He has begun to show me what i have inside me and reveling in that. If manipulation is necessary to bring me to this point with Him and beyond, so be it. i welcome it with open arms and an open mind.

Sorry to bombard you with questions but I am full of admiration for you. Not only for realising what you did not want to follow but however difficult it may have been at times, you never went back

for courage

xx

No worries, dear, and thank you. i only wish i had been stronger than i was those years that i yo-yoed in and out of their commmunity.

i hope no one minds what seems to be another off-topic post from me. By the way...did i mention that i tend to be long winded?

joanna

 

[Hisownprecious]

Re: Re: Re: Biderman's Chart of Coercion

joanna, thank you for putting forth a story that surely has a connection to Biderman's chart. my further readings found this link which touches specifically on a situations such as yours. Not only do you need not to edit out your post, i'm glad to have the opportunity to read an experience such as yours. Your post certainly lends towards the topic. Victims of extreme cultism go through a process similar to what Biderman described. Glad to know you were able to remove yourself from a situation that wasn't healthy and happy for you and your children.

lara

It is me who should be thanking you, lara. i have been wondering about any link between my time with the church and my submissive nature. i haven't wanted to think about it too hard because i don't want to think it away. i find such peace in this. i saw this thread and i went. i couldn't help it. i guess it was just time for me to look at it all. To stop wondering and finally get it out. From the bottom of my little submissive heart i thank you. i really needed this.

joanna

 

[shy slave]

Hisownprecious

Thank you for taking the time to reply. Even though I did ask three times unintentionally lol (thanks for the blue arrows AA, they are lovely and not too screamingly obvious that I made a mistake!!!!)

PYL comes from AA its mean pick your label, and, yes, i did mean your master; wasn't sure if what relationship you were in (Dom/Me)and didn't want to offend you when i was asking such intrusive questions.

I need time to think about both your and Phoenix Stones posts but I am going away for the weekend with my Master so won't be able to post until my return.

Of course I will have plenty of time to think things through when I am tied down etc

Thank you both for sharing so much in your posts, I feel humbled to have read such frank inner thoughts.

Lara thanks for the link I will read it properly after the weekend.

I love reading long winded and rambling posts *nods and winks To PS and His OP*, and posts that make my brain cells tick