BDSM: sex or sex substitute?

Tollo

Virgin
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Posts
27
In the context of another thread, sexymom, made the following statements:

"There is also an attempt to link dominance with sexuality by innuendo. I don't know of many people in real life who see bdsm as a primarily sexual thing, since vanillas often tend to have more active, and satisfying, sex lives than people in the bdsm world. Many people get interested in bdsm because it is a sex substitute."

Not wanting to hijack that thread, I asked sexymom if it would be OK with her if I used her comments as the basis for a new thread. She agreed. I spent a day reading in the Library and while I never found a discussion about the fundamental relationship between D/s and sex, I did find many discussions which touched on this issue. (I would recommend the "What is a D/s relationship?" thread in the "Relationships" section as a good place to start, if you are interested.)

Regarding my own relationship, this is something that I have been thinking about a lot recently. For A. (my sub) and I, D/s came into our relationship, originally as a sexual thing. Initially we would simply incorporate various D/s elements into our lovemaking, but it was something that stayed exclusively in the bedroom. So for us, it did begin as a primarily sexual thing, and in my experience, it was a vehicle to a more satisfying and active sex life, just the opposite of sexymom's description above.

A. and I are about to go 24/7. It has taken better than 5 years for us to get to the point where we feel secure enough in our identities as D. and s. to take this step. The funny thing is, in this 24/7 relationship D/s will not, cannot, be primarily a sexual thing. What's more, I suspect that being 24/7 will affect our sex life, not necessarily making it less active or satisfying, but certainly more deliberate and considered. After reading and thinking about sexymom's comment, I would have to say that for us D/s has replaced sex as the foundation for or intimacy- - something like a "substitute".

In short, I feel like while D/s began in our bedroom, it was only once we began to see D/s in a broader perspective that we realized that it might be able to come into our lives more generally. If I hadn't become acquainted with this community, I would feel that seeing D/s in anything other than a sexual way was unusual to say the least. After all, I cannot recall ever having read a bdsm story here, nor seen a bdsm website, that did not portray bdsm as, basically, a sexual or erotic thing.

So what about all of you? I would really like to hear how others would respond to sexymom's statements.

Tollo
 
LOL, I think sexymom has a few things mixed up, perhaps because that is her reality, not everyone else's. Personally I had an active sexlife all my adult life, but as satisfying as it could be at times, there was another dimension missing which I found was D/s. Since going after what it was I really needed, and being in a RL 24/7 M/s relationship, and married, for 3 years, I can assure you I have more sex now than I ever had and that is no mean feat to accomplish!! :D It does seem to me some find D/s opens up their sexual experiences and things they do in that context, but that was not my experience. I was always open to new experiences sexually and experimented a lot so tried things such as anal, oral, bondage, toys, enema's, exhibitionism, bisexual, etc., all while younger and vanilla...now those things continue and are more frequent.....guess I'm just a kinky girl at heart. :eek:

Catalina :rose:
 
I am much more sexually fulfilled in a variety of ways incorporating SM into my relationships versus not. I do see BDSM activity through a sexuality filter. It's like saying gay people have less satisfying sex lives because their sexuality is part of their sociopolitical life and pretty much has to be, it's not just fucking.
 
Netzach said:
I am much more sexually fulfilled in a variety of ways incorporating SM into my relationships versus not. I do see BDSM activity through a sexuality filter. It's like saying gay people have less satisfying sex lives because their sexuality is part of their sociopolitical life and pretty much has to be, it's not just fucking.

As usual, perfectly said...BTW, have you seen you have been nomnated for a very important position? :D

Catalina :rose:
 
catalina_francisco said:
As usual, perfectly said...BTW, have you seen you have been nomnated for a very important position? :D

Catalina :rose:

Thanks...Huh?

No, uh oh.
 
:rolleyes: I happen to know that me and K have sex more often than the average 'vanilla' person. Especially vanilla people with small kids. And we personally spent 7 1/2 years of our marriage 'vanilla', and I like the sex a lot better now that it's D/s. *shrugs* I think sexymom has no idea what she's talking about, and shouldn't make generalizations.
 
Interesting topic.

I've wondered this myself. I think there is an element of contrivance behind BDSM sex sometimes that is definitely a substitute for a stronger sexual desire, at least at the time.
 
aren't most relationships such as husband/wife boyfriend/girlfriend (there are a million more combos but i dont feel like typing them all) based on sexuality?
 
Kajira Callista said:
aren't most relationships such as husband/wife boyfriend/girlfriend (there are a million more combos but i dont feel like typing them all) based on sexuality?

You really think so?
 
Clarifying Where I Stand

Upon reflection, I realize that my use of the term "sex substitute" is not totally appropriate to explain how I feel, but it isn't totally wrong either.

For a little background, I was in a discussion once about how much people should or could tell their children about their bdsm relationships, and most people felt that bdsm must be completely concealed from children because it is "a sex thing". Now, I agree totally, 100% that children should not be exposed to "sex things". But when I asked these same people if their children knew they were married, the answer was, "yes, but that's different. Marriage isn't sexual, but bdsm is."

Hmmmmm-- Now, I don't mean to imply that bdsm is non-sexual (although every dungeon I have been to, and every play party, had a "no sex on the premises" rule, and I have known several virgins who are active in the lifestyle). My argument is simply that bdsm can lead to sex, but isn't in itself sexual- for a lot of people, anyway.

When I was in high school, the football players usually got laid on Friday nights after football games, so you could make the same argument that football is a sexual pursuit.

When my husband and I eat dinner at Italian restaurants, it usually leads to sex (strange: that isn't true of Chinese or Mexican, for us), so I guess Italian restaurants can be classified as sex venues in the same way that people often classify dungeons.

I had a very good sex life without bdsm, and I can't honestly say that, for me, sex is better, nor more frequent, now. Different, yes. Interesting, yes. But I see bdsm as so much more. That's why I make the comparison with marriage.

The reason I got on my soapbox is that the idea of bdsm as a perverted, kinky sex thing is normally used against us. Please don't take this as an argument that there should not be sex as a part of bdsm- I am not trying to argue that bdsm is, or should be, non-sexual.
 
sexymom said:
Upon reflection, I realize that my use of the term "sex substitute" is not totally appropriate to explain how I feel, but it isn't totally wrong either.

For a little background, I was in a discussion once about how much people should or could tell their children about their bdsm relationships, and most people felt that bdsm must be completely concealed from children because it is "a sex thing". Now, I agree totally, 100% that children should not be exposed to "sex things". But when I asked these same people if their children knew they were married, the answer was, "yes, but that's different. Marriage isn't sexual, but bdsm is."

Hmmmmm-- Now, I don't mean to imply that bdsm is non-sexual (although every dungeon I have been to, and every play party, had a "no sex on the premises" rule, and I have known several virgins who are active in the lifestyle). My argument is simply that bdsm can lead to sex, but isn't in itself sexual- for a lot of people, anyway.

When I was in high school, the football players usually got laid on Friday nights after football games, so you could make the same argument that football is a sexual pursuit.

When my husband and I eat dinner at Italian restaurants, it usually leads to sex (strange: that isn't true of Chinese or Mexican, for us), so I guess Italian restaurants can be classified as sex venues in the same way that people often classify dungeons.

I had a very good sex life without bdsm, and I can't honestly say that, for me, sex is better, nor more frequent, now. Different, yes. Interesting, yes. But I see bdsm as so much more. That's why I make the comparison with marriage.

The reason I got on my soapbox is that the idea of bdsm as a perverted, kinky sex thing is normally used against us. Please don't take this as an argument that there should not be sex as a part of bdsm- I am not trying to argue that bdsm is, or should be, non-sexual.


OK, I can see that. And I agree. Their's more to bdsm than kinky sex. When I was sick I couldn't have sex. We went . . . three months without sex. We sill practiced bdsm. He was still the boss, even though we weren't having sex.

And, out of curiousity sake, I tell the kids that. I say they can, he says they can't, I say 'Daddy's the boss!'. They wanna go somewhere I say "Ask Daddy, he's the boss." Now sometimes he'll say 'it's up to your mom' cause he could care less, but he was given the option. (And that way we're less likely for me to say yes, and him to say no.) No, they don't know that he spanks me, or anything like that, but that's cause I'm in charge most of the time. They need to respect me, and it doesn't do for us to show disention. They need to see us as people who work together and are always in complete agreement about them, otherwise they'll try to play us against eachother.
 
sexymom said:
The reason I got on my soapbox is that the idea of bdsm as a perverted, kinky sex thing is normally used against us. Please don't take this as an argument that there should not be sex as a part of bdsm- I am not trying to argue that bdsm is, or should be, non-sexual.

My BDSM is a perverted kinky sex thing. If the world chooses to use that against me, that's the world's shortcoming, not mine.
 
Depends who you are and how you experience things. I personally find anything I enjoy, or which stimulates my brain cells, turns me on immensely and sexually...and sex is much better since including D/s simply because it was what was missing to stop that complete experience before. Sure I enjoyed sex...a lot, and many people go through life satisfied with that level, but for me I always had a hunger that was not being fed and I found out what that was.

D/s is more than just sex, but sex is also a big part of it for me because I am not interested in a 24/7 relationship which is non-sexual and as it forms the foundation of the relationship...it is sexual. I am not into trying to pretend it is otherwise as I see that as basically saying I am doing something wrong and shameful, and that is just not how I see it. As to the kids thing....I raised my children knowing about sex in an appropriate way at relevant ages and/or when the need arose. They didn't have to find out about it from behind the toilet block in school or tall stories from their friends.

I also never blocked their avenues of learning about things which they had questions about. I was also a single parent most of the time so dating was part of the knowledge base as was rock music and all forms of music, sexuality issues outside just having sex (ie. what being gay was, fetish, etc.), politics, humanitarian and environmental issues, and life in general. I am never going to advocate anyone need suppress their lifestyle so others who aren't part of it may begin thinking we are okay....bottom line is we do not live as they do, nor do we want to, and we are adults capable of making adult choices. If they can't accept that, it is not my problem or my duty to try and appease their sensibilites or view of me if I am in no way trying to involve them in my activities.

Catalina :rose:
 
Netzach said:
My BDSM is a perverted kinky sex thing. If the world chooses to use that against me, that's the world's shortcoming, not mine.

Thanks Netz, I thought I was going to have to crack Sir Quam out for that one.
 
graceanne said:
OK, I can see that. And I agree. Their's more to bdsm than kinky sex. <snip>

And, out of curiousity sake, I tell the kids that. I say they can, he says they can't, I say 'Daddy's the boss!'. They wanna go somewhere I say "Ask Daddy, he's the boss." Now sometimes he'll say 'it's up to your mom' cause he could care less, but he was given the option. (And that way we're less likely for me to say yes, and him to say no.) No, they don't know that he spanks me, or anything like that, but that's cause I'm in charge most of the time. They need to respect me, and it doesn't do for us to show disention. They need to see us as people who work together and are always in complete agreement about them, otherwise they'll try to play us against eachother.

I can see everyone's point of view on this, BDSM sex or sex substitute thing.
I don't see it as a substitute or a strictly sex thing.

With the kids though? I'm in charge. Now I won't contradict him in front of the kids, don't get me wrong, but Mom has to be in charge cause Mom is THERE! LOL. Anyway Mom knows best. *snicker*

What really frustrates the kids is when I don't want to decide something and Dad is actually home. I'll say, go ask your Dad. 9 times out of 10 he will send them back to ask me! That gets pretty funny sometimes. Well I think it's funny.

The truth is that he thinks I go too easy on them about some things. Over time he has seen that my methods work far better than what our parents did. He tends to be okay with them doing stuff I wouldn't go easy on. So when I think, hey, am I being too uptight about X? I send them to him and he usually lets them do whatever it is, if he offers an opinion.

These kids have it good though. They have pretty clear unchanging rules and a lot of freedom as well. They have been turning out so great. Things are so good with them it's scary. I'm waiting for the next "shoe to drop."

Fury :rose:
 
LOL My mom and step dad used to do that to me and my sister. It made us so mad. :mad:

Now, occasionally it'll happen with them. I'll say ask your dad, he says ask your mom, they'll come in and say 'he says it's up to you.' lol

I wanted to add that I don't consult with him about everything. I'm not calling him at work saying 'can the kids have candy after lunch' or things like that. But if A wants to spend the night at her best friends house, I call him to make sure it's ok. Things like that.
 
graceanne said:
LOL My mom and step dad used to do that to me and my sister. It made us so mad. :mad:

Now, occasionally it'll happen with them. I'll say ask your dad, he says ask your mom, they'll come in and say 'he says it's up to you.' lol

I wanted to add that I don't consult with him about everything. I'm not calling him at work saying 'can the kids have candy after lunch' or things like that. But if A wants to spend the night at her best friends house, I call him to make sure it's ok. Things like that.

Oh I understand that beautiful girl!

*hugs*

Fury :rose:
 
FurryFury said:
These kids have it good though. They have pretty clear unchanging rules and a lot of freedom as well. They have been turning out so great. Things are so good with them it's scary. I'm waiting for the next "shoe to drop."

Fury :rose:

From what you have described as your style of parenting You are going to have a kids who will be more willing to tell you what is going on in their lives, even if you get upset about it, because they will ALWAYS know that no matter what screw-ups they commit, you will still love them and help them clean up the mess after.

I grew up the product of a broken home - parents divorced at 6, my mom worked full time, we were borderline poverty level... by all rights my brother and I *should* have been juvenile delinquents. The *worst* we have done... a couple of speeding tickets, my brother spent the night in the drunk tank (eh, that's what he gets for partying more than 50 miles from home) once about 8 or 10 years ago. He doesn't drink much anymore, not since the time a girl spiked his with a date rape drug (thank god he was friends with one of the bartenders or she might have gotten him out of the bar and who knows wqhat would have happened). I've smoked marajuana a few times - many years ago - never really developed a craving for it though.
 
Private_Label said:
From what you have described as your style of parenting You are going to have a kids who will be more willing to tell you what is going on in their lives, even if you get upset about it, because they will ALWAYS know that no matter what screw-ups they commit, you will still love them and help them clean up the mess after.

I grew up the product of a broken home - parents divorced at 6, my mom worked full time, we were borderline poverty level... by all rights my brother and I *should* have been juvenile delinquents. The *worst* we have done... a couple of speeding tickets, my brother spent the night in the drunk tank (eh, that's what he gets for partying more than 50 miles from home) once about 8 or 10 years ago. He doesn't drink much anymore, not since the time a girl spiked his with a date rape drug (thank god he was friends with one of the bartenders or she might have gotten him out of the bar and who knows wqhat would have happened). I've smoked marajuana a few times - many years ago - never really developed a craving for it though.


Thank you for saying that! *HUGS*

I feel you on the childhood PL! I grew up in a really fucked up environment but honestly, though I can sure tell some bad stories on myself, I turned out pretty damned well.

It's funny I had a very hard time making the child psychologist understand when I took my daughter in, that I don't want to control my kids. That is the last resort. I mean, you have to when they are young and can't do it for themselves but, the older they get the more I want them to control themselves. It's working too.

My daughter hasn't physically attacked me in over two years. (She had a lot of anger and low impulse control issues at that time because of stress and dealing with the toxic ex.) She is getting wiser too. She has always been smart, too smart. Now she is getting wise. I love that.

I'm all about giving them the power and okay to make their own decisions, then be comfortable with those decisions. Also the skills to cook, clean, maintain the yard and car, deal with relationships and sex, all that real life stuff that you need. Cause I do want them out, happy and able to deal with themselves and their things.

As far as Pot goes I can't seem to make myself inhale but now brownies??? Yeah baybee though it's been years and years.

Just took a legal drug so I should start flowing soon.

*winks*

Just trying to take the edge off a four day headache here.

Fury :rose:

It's not my legal drug though. Shh...
 
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