As North Korea have admitted to trying to build an atomic bomb...

[weed]

I really try to understand the reason people still support the current administration so strongly.
This is a government that has demonstrated a total lack of regard for its own laws. Where it hasn't been able to do that, it replaced those laws with more convenient ones.
We have homeland security. The patriot act.
Spy on your neighbors. Report them to "authorities" if they do anything suspicious, illegal or immoral. That one's loaded. Take away the personal freedoms that great people have fought and died for.
There is a quote that has been attributed to several American patriots, (Jefferson, Franklin, and others)so I'm not sure who said it, but it is as relevant today as it ever was... "Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither one."

The US government has adopted a policy of worl bully. "Preventive war". That's a good one.
Most of us who were raised in families and communities with strong moral values, such as the ones Bush and his cronies like to tout, were taught that violence was never truly right, and only used as a last resort in self defense or defense of another but never to strike the first blow.
It appears that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld may be the true axis of evil. Or at least just another cheap copy.
Though not cheap.
Rule by chaos.
They keep the non thinking public busy with tittilating thoughts(gives most guys a nice hard on) of war while diverting attention from the real issues facing America, such as economic crisis. A nation that will spend billions of tax dollars to destroy innocent, faceless people in far away lands, but won't even provide money for precription drugs and good medical care for our own elderly or those not fortunate enough to afford health care.

This nation may ultimately need to go to war. Our government has already decided to do so. They have not proven their case

Think. That is truly patriotic.

Nice post.

 

[bored1]

Wasnt north Korea supposed to get a reactor or soem kind of engergy producer from the USA for stopping nuclear boms making. they stopped for years but USA never gave them teh reactor.

Since USA never lived up to its end of deal why should they?

north korea agreed to stop research/production of nukes. the US agreed to supply oil. north korea admitted that they had at least two nukes in violation of the earlier agreement, the US then stopped the supply of oil. seems that you just cant trust communists.

 

[weed]

Isn't this an economic endeavor for Korea? To me it's not just the fact that they're building nukes but that they will sell them to whoever that is scary.

Saddam is an old thorn in the Bush family side. I believe this is more of a motivator to make Iraq a target than we collectively like to admit.

Korea also has no resources that would interest the global business world.

Besides despite all our might I don't think we are prepared to spread ourselves too thin. Look at all the military mustering we're are doing now just for li'l ole Iraq.

 

[teddybear4play]

Think. That is truly patriotic.

Please send me a PM when you start.

TB4p

 

[Dantetier]

I keep hearing this bullshit about not starting War. Hate to tell you, war has already been declared on us in the form of September 11th. The problem with that is al Queda was not a country based organization. It's multi-national. Iraq was proven to have supported al Queda. ALSO, Iraq has CONTINUOUSLY ignored UN resolutions starting the day he lost Desert Storm.

All that is PLENTY of reason to invade. We need to make an example and show the world that you can't strike so blantantly in the very heart of our nation, or we will annihalate. I think waiting this long has been too long already.

 

[Gil_Favor]

Please send me a PM when you start.

TB4p

LOL

 

[Phoenyx]

north korea agreed to stop research/production of nukes. the US agreed to supply oil. north korea admitted that they had at least two nukes in violation of the earlier agreement, the US then stopped the supply of oil. seems that you just cant trust communists.

Wasnt sure how it went.
all I heard was one side was supposed to give somethign to other side.

thansk for clearing it up.

 

[zipman]

I really try to understand the reason people still support the current administration so strongly.
This is a government that has demonstrated a total lack of regard for its own laws. Where it hasn't been able to do that, it replaced those laws with more convenient ones.
We have homeland security. The patriot act.
Spy on your neighbors. Report them to "authorities" if they do anything suspicious, illegal or immoral. That one's loaded. Take away the personal freedoms that great people have fought and died for.
There is a quote that has been attributed to several American patriots, (Jefferson, Franklin, and others)so I'm not sure who said it, but it is as relevant today as it ever was... "Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither one."

The US government has adopted a policy of worl bully. "Preventive war". That's a good one.
Most of us who were raised in families and communities with strong moral values, such as the ones Bush and his cronies like to tout, were taught that violence was never truly right, and only used as a last resort in self defense or defense of another but never to strike the first blow.
It appears that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld may be the true axis of evil. Or at least just another cheap copy.
Though not cheap.
Rule by chaos.
They keep the non thinking public busy with tittilating thoughts(gives most guys a nice hard on) of war while diverting attention from the real issues facing America, such as economic crisis. A nation that will spend billions of tax dollars to destroy innocent, faceless people in far away lands, but won't even provide money for precription drugs and good medical care for our own elderly or those not fortunate enough to afford health care.

This nation may ultimately need to go to war. Our government has already decided to do so. They have not proven their case

Think. That is truly patriotic.

I think the Patriot Act did go too far, however, I think it is a response to the type of terrorism that we are facing.

While our founding fathers had to face a number of different problems, a nuclear weapon that could kill millions and make an entire city uninhabitable wasn't one of them. That being the case, I find your position on "preventative war" to be naive. What good is going to war AFTER someone has used a nuclear bomb on one of your cities? Even a dirty nuke would make a city like NYC uninhabitable for years.

I have yet to hear the anti-war crowd give a single suggestion as to how our government should be handling this. It is far easier to criticize than it is to offer a solution.

To your points about medication and health care, well, of course they should be better. War or not, I haven't seen that happening. The truth is, the Clinton Administration severely underestimated the threat of world terrorism to this country. The Bush administration did the same thing when they took office.

At least now, we are doing something to fight against it. Preventing countries likely to provide terrorists with them is a good first step to me.

 

[RosevilleCAguy]

Re: Thanks, KM

Thanks for acknowledging what pp was trying to get someone to admit-- that the reason Bush is going after Iraq so strongly is precisely because it's weak and isolated, and can't put up much of a fight.

Actually, its because North Korea serves as such a sterling example of what socialism/communism can offer the world.

 

[weed]

I have yet to hear the anti-war crowd give a single suggestion as to how our government should be handling this. It is far easier to criticize than it is to offer a solution.

I for one am fairly glad the way things are going.

The UN and our allies in the quest for peace have done a good job tempering our war-zealousness and I am glad for that yet our manipulations have kept the world pressing on towards finding and removal of WMD even though we haven't taken that step into action. There is a certain balance that is being maintained within this process even though it may fluctuate on a daily basis.

I still pray this will play out without the destruction and death that will accompany a war against Iraq.





Gee, do you think some day they'll be looking at us and our weapons and wondering if we need to be inspected?

 

[teddybear4play]

I for one am fairly glad the way things are going.

The UN and our allies in the quest for peace have done a good job tempering our war-zealousness and I am glad for that yet our manipulations have kept the world pressing on towards finding and removal of WMD even though we haven't taken that step into action. There is a certain balance that is being maintained within this process even though it may fluctuate on a daily basis.

Which is precisely why we talked the way we did. Problem: Hussein kicks out U.N. weapon inspectors. Solution One, demanding their return by essentially petitioning both Iraq and the U.N., failed miserably. Solution Two: Bluff war rhetoric so that peaceful inspections are willingly offered as a viable alternative. It's amazing how quickly inspection talks were resurrected when the alternative is outright conflict. Less carrot, more stick.

Gee, do you think some day they'll be looking at us and our weapons and wondering if we need to be inspected?

No reason. We don't need a 12,000 page document. Everybody knows we have some bad shit. We also have made it quite clear that we won't use them except in retaliation for an attack of similar magnitude.

TB4p

 

[Guest]

 

[HeavyStick]

I have a few points to make and a few opinions.

Korea has Nukes, yes, and they're trying to make more. So? We probably are too. We are dismantling Nukes now, we still have over 2200. These are pretty powerful, not lawn darts.

Also... I think we've learned from the past about War on two Fronts. Naepoleon tried and failed. Hitler tried, and failed... I think we're going to step up our plans with Iraq so we can get to Korea faster. A war with Iraq with be mostly troops with psychological warfare. War with N Korea will be a very large and ugly air campaign mixed with artillery and tanks. I would be more worried about a war with N Korea than 5 wars with Iraq.

Iraq will put up NO resistance whatsoever. their army and their tanks mean nothing when we can destroy them before we're even on their radar. Korea is different. The have a large army, and they are MUCH better equipped and trained then Iraq. If/when we go against Iraq, we will suffer few if any casualties. If we go against Korea... the USA will be victorious, but we will suffer huge losses. Also, Korea has the ability to strike our mainland, something Iraq cannot do. You really are a simpleton aren't you? After 9/11 Any country can strike the US homeland. It's a matter of how they do it. For all we know the Jamaicans could be planning a bob-sledding run on Albany NY. Iraqi Republican guard will put up a hell of a fight. Iraq will offer resistance. Iraqi's will show loyalty to Saddam if they are in numbers (fear of reprisal), but if the Iraqi's are encountered in the city streets like many people expect, defection away from Saddam will be widespread.

I think while we are dealing with Iraq and Saddam, We'll be talking to Korea. Korea is not run by a homocidal psychotic, and is probably infinitely more reasonable. ALSO, Korea is beaing refreshingly honest about what they are doing. I think that speaks well for what's going to happen. They know we'll open negotiations, and they know we'll give a lot to have them shut their plants and labs down, and that's what they want. That's been your problem, you've been thinking. Our top brass doesn't like how the President wants to so quickly liberate Iraq/take out Saddam. Most of our top brass says we can handle Iraq and N Korea at the sametime.

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by weed
Gee, do you think some day they'll be looking at us and our weapons and wondering if we need to be inspected?

No reason. We don't need a 12,000 page document. Everybody knows we have some bad shit. We also have made it quite clear that we won't use them except in retaliation for an attack of similar magnitude.

Actually we'd need closer to 120,000 pages for the kind of report Iraq was require to submit.

I keep pointing this out, but nobody seems to take note:

[size=large]There are resident inspectors here in the US from Russia as part of the START and other arms limitation treaties![/size]

I know for a fact there are Russian inspectors, because I've met one of them. There may be UN inspectors or other international inspectors as well.

The inspectors here don't get the run-around and obstuction that the inspectors in Iraq do, so they aren't in the news.

 

[Guest]

 

[zipman]

No reason. We don't need a 12,000 page document. Everybody knows we have some bad shit. We also have made it quite clear that we won't use them except in retaliation for an attack of similar magnitude.

Actually we'd need closer to 120,000 pages for the kind of report Iraq was require to submit.

I keep pointing this out, but nobody seems to take note:

[size=large]There are resident inspectors here in the US from Russia as part of the START and other arms limitation treaties![/size]

I know for a fact there are Russian inspectors, because I've met one of them. There may be UN inspectors or other international inspectors as well.

The inspectors here don't get the run-around and obstuction that the inspectors in Iraq do, so they aren't in the news.

Thanks for posting this WeirdHarold. I was unaware of the fact that we are walking the talk with regard to inspections as well.

 

[Frimost]

Potentially Devastating Situation

According to the CIA, North Korea's formidable military already has two nuclear weapons. The fear in the United States and South Korea is that North Korea could have enough plutonium to build four or five more nuclear weapons within months.

"A North Korea armed with nuclear weapons aided by ballistic missiles threatens South Korea, Japan, the United States and by transfer the whole international community," said ABCNEWS analyst Robert Galluci.

North Korea has 1.1 million troops, 1,700 aircraft and 800 war ships. The 13 million people in Seoul are just 30 miles from the heavily rmed border known as the Demilitarized Zone.

U.S. military options are limited. There are 37,000 U.S. troops stationed in South Korea and officials said a pre-emptive attack on North Korea could be catastrophic.

"A pre-mptive strike would indeed lead the North Koreans to unleash an attack on the South Koreans — not necessarily a nuclear attack, they have gun emplacements high in the mountains above Seoul," said Sen. Richard Lugar, R.-Ind.

"It could have devastating impact on the population and create chaos in the country," said Lugar, the incoming chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

North Korea to Expel U.N. Nuclear Inspectors

The deal was for food, oil, and the building of a safe nuclear reactor that would yield more energy and who’s spent reactor fuel could not be used to extract weapons-grade plutonium.

We sent them food.
We sent them oil.
We even helped them gain International aid and loans.
We started to build the "safe reactor", albeit slowly, too slowly apparently for the antsy and impatient North Koreans.

Then North Korea officially announced to one of our ambassadors about 6-weeks ago that despite the 1994 agreement they did NOT freeze work on the R&D of the development of nuclear weapons and the weaponization of the warheads needed to fit them to their medium and long-range Scud-missile knock-offs.

That is why we stopped sending oil to them, which only accounted for about between 2 to 5% of their energy output.

There have not been thousands of North Koreans starved to death but HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS; I have seen estimates of between 1 and 2 MILLION deaths.

And China dose not return North Koreans so much for its own sake since China is merely a way station for the refugees to make it to the US or a European nation but because NORTH KOREA ASKS CHINA to return them. North Koreans are ALL about respect, and they think the refugee problem makes them look bad and lose face.

 

[Gil_Favor]

frimost.........they are communists they dont live up to their agreements they dont tell the truth. this is the system that Redwave holds so dear.

 

[HeavyStick]

frimost.........they are communists they dont live up to their agreements they dont tell the truth. this is the system that Redwave holds so dear.

That's what makes it so perfect.

 

[Dantetier]

I've never understood something. Why are communists inhearently Bad? Everyone is all down about Communists. Why did we need to go to war in Vietnam to stop communism? It's just a system of government... who cares?

 

[HeavyStick]

I've never understood something. Why are communists inhearently Bad? Everyone is all down about Communists. Why did we need to go to war in Vietnam to stop communism? It's just a system of government... who cares?

The war in Vietnam was there before the US, we inherited a French mess. From the 50's to the 60's a little thing called the Domino effect was happening. The US was supporting new Democratic Nations and the former USSr was supporting the new Communists countries.

It's individuals that go bad, not entire nations.

 

[Dantetier]

The war in Vietnam was there before the US, we inherited a French mess. From the 50's to the 60's a little thing called the Domino effect was happening. The US was supporting new Democratic Nations and the former USSr was supporting the new Communists countries.

It's individuals that go bad, not entire nations.

Okay, but how come people say Oh, they're communist, what did you expect?"

It's just like Islam. People assume all Muslims want to murder Christians and Jews, and it's just not the case. I believe it's the same with Communism.

And from what I've read about socialism... If it was put into effect perfectly, and human greed didn't interfere... it's a bloody good idea. Unfortunately... people HATE thinking anyone is equal or better then they are

 

[HeavyStick]

Okay, but how come people say Oh, they're communist, what did you expect?" huh?

It's just like Islam. WRONG, communism and Islam are not the same. The fear/hate instilled by Islam is completely different. Communist were part of a very active cold war were the only victims were governments and ideology. The Jihad, is an active campaign against all infidels. The Communist wanted world domination. For now the fanatic Islamics want a cleansing of the Holy Land of all Westerners, this is being spearheaded by Al Qaeda.People assume all Muslims want to murder Christians and Jews, and it's just not the case. not all Christians and Jews, only the ones on Holy Land, not all Muslims, only the fanatics I believe it's the same with Communism. WRONG

 

[Frimost]

It's just a system of government... who cares?

I care, anyone with empathy and sympathy to the suffering of fellow men and women should care. It is NOT just a form of government by a form of dictatorship whose very implementation and execution calls for the imprisonment and genocide in many cases of those who freely express their opinions. It is a form of suppression that disallows the very nature of man, to speak ones mind, to talk with freedom and impunity. Democracy may not be perfect but any regime that kills and maims political dissidents for merely criticizing a government policy or not cow-toeing with the one-party system and expressing a desire for freedom of thought deserves to die a hard death.

You see, we have the luxury of calling Bush an asshole here if we want. If we were in Vietnam or North Korea and we called their president an asshole we would be thrown into a gulag for “re-education” or even tortured and killed.

 

[Frimost]

Uh-Oh!

Officials: N. Korea Violated Buffer Zone