Anyone for a nightcap?

[midwestyankee]

Eeew. Over night some one drank all my BL Lime. Now all I have is Corona and Keystone Light. God Keystone is horrible! I'm thinking about trying one of the Coronas. Havn't had one in years. Ideas anyone?

Suicide?


Or make a run to the store and buy some scotch?

 

[NervousGuy]

*sigh* I don't got any money for good scotch. I do have some cask&cream though. Any ideas of how to use it besides in coffee?

 

[midwestyankee]

*sigh* I don't got any money for good scotch. I do have some cask&cream though. Any ideas of how to use it besides in coffee?

Over ice cream?

 

[NervousGuy]

Now that is a grand idea. But I'll go one better. Blend the Vanilla ice cream up with it and have a Cask&Cream milkshake. I've also heard its fairly decent over ice. But if I wanted straight liquor I would just drink from my Jug of Corn Whiskey.

 

[midwestyankee]

Now that is a grand idea. But I'll go one better. Blend the Vanilla ice cream up with it and have a Cask&Cream milkshake. I've also heard its fairly decent over ice. But if I wanted straight liquor I would just drink from my Jug of Corn Whiskey.

When I was in high school we used to buy milkshakes at the A&W and then lace them with whiskey. We could sip the milkshakes with no fear of being suspected by the police.

 

[NervousGuy]

See when I was in highschool we would bring vodka in orange juice in a little capri sun bottle. School never caught on. But then agian, people were snorting lines in the bathroom at school too, and the school never found out about that either. Bad School Bad.

NG.

 

[LilyBart]

Back in the day...
Vodka looked like water.


Well, it still does. Don't tell the kids.


~LB

 

[midwestyankee]

Back in the day...
Vodka looked like water.


Well, it still does. Don't tell the kids.


~LB

I think they figured it out.


The latest seems to be the use of massive quantities of pure vanilla extract as a flavor enhancer because it contains small amounts of alcohol. Shoot, we knew that forty years ago and put lemon extract in our lemonade.

 

[intothewoods]

Pour me a virtual one.

I have been watching my wine intake lately. Just making sure I don't guzzle you know. Keep things within reason.

So, I'm just in a crap mood. Same old, same old thoughts that always make me sad. Anyway.

I watched a little documentary called Gender Rebel, I think, cause I thought it would be interesting. Well, it was, but also touching and sort of heartbreaking. One of the people featured was gender queer, although transitioning more to masculinity, and in a relationship with a woman who identies as a lesbian. I felt so bad for the both of them! They love each other, but one is a lesbian who doesn't want to be with a man, and the other is embracing her masculinity and yet still very much in love with her girlfriend.

Anyway, just tough to watch. They were both really struggling. Next time I'll stick with Law & Order.

 

[JMohegan]

Pour me a virtual one.

I have been watching my wine intake lately. Just making sure I don't guzzle you know. Keep things within reason.

So, I'm just in a crap mood. Same old, same old thoughts that always make me sad. Anyway.

I watched a little documentary called Gender Rebel, I think, cause I thought it would be interesting. Well, it was, but also touching and sort of heartbreaking. One of the people featured was gender queer, although transitioning more to masculinity, and in a relationship with a woman who identies as a lesbian. I felt so bad for the both of them! They love each other, but one is a lesbian who doesn't want to be with a man, and the other is embracing her masculinity and yet still very much in love with her girlfriend.

Anyway, just tough to watch. They were both really struggling. Next time I'll stick with Law & Order.

This confuses me. A lot.

What do you mean when you say she was "embracing her masculinity"? What was she doing differently, and why did she consider that new behavior to be masculine, when compared to whatever she was doing before?

 

[intothewoods]

This confuses me. A lot.

What do you mean when you say she was "embracing her masculinity"? What was she doing differently, and why did she consider that new behavior to be masculine, when compared to whatever she was doing before?

I should have been more specific. She had an operation to remove her breasts, and then started taking testosterone.

There are many gender queer people who look like men, and have a lot of male characteristics, but have no interest in identifying fully as a male or changing their plumbing.

 

[JMohegan]

I should have been more specific. She had an operation to remove her breasts, and then started taking testosterone.

There are many gender queer people who look like men, and have a lot of male characteristics, but have no interest in identifying fully as a male or changing their plumbing.

Oh. Thanks for explaining.

I don't understand why a woman, in love with a lesbian, would want to go through the risk and trouble of transitioning to a physical male, or partial male. Did the program give insights into why, or what she hoped to gain from a personal perspective?

 

[Netzach]

It's a simplified sci fi example, but if you woke up and had a C cup and a pussy tomorrow, do you think you'd do anything about it, even if your partner looooved it? That's how off TG people feel with what they're given. Sometimes it's an issue of "I don't know what I want, but I know it's not this" which is kind of M's relationship to his physical masculinity at times. As a partner it's a little perplexing, but I'm blessed to be able to erotocize a lot of variation.

 

[Netzach]

Pour me a virtual one.

I have been watching my wine intake lately. Just making sure I don't guzzle you know. Keep things within reason.

So, I'm just in a crap mood. Same old, same old thoughts that always make me sad. Anyway.

I watched a little documentary called Gender Rebel, I think, cause I thought it would be interesting. Well, it was, but also touching and sort of heartbreaking. One of the people featured was gender queer, although transitioning more to masculinity, and in a relationship with a woman who identies as a lesbian. I felt so bad for the both of them! They love each other, but one is a lesbian who doesn't want to be with a man, and the other is embracing her masculinity and yet still very much in love with her girlfriend.

Anyway, just tough to watch. They were both really struggling. Next time I'll stick with Law & Order.

I had a friend in college whose dad transitioned, and remains married to her mom and their relationship remains very strong in this quiet Scandinavian domestic kind of way (they're immigrants). I don't know if it's still a sexual rel or not, and I'm not about to ask. They're in a not-huge town in the Midwest and it's just approached in a very matter-of-fact manner. Sometimes and for some people the plumbing is trumped by the shared history and enjoyment of one another. Sometimes not. I can see it being a wedge for most couples, it's a lot to accept in one's partner, to have to re-negotiate your own identity and how people are going to view you, not just your spouse.

 

[JMohegan]

It's a simplified sci fi example, but if you woke up and had a C cup and a pussy tomorrow, do you think you'd do anything about it, even if your partner looooved it? That's how off TG people feel with what they're given. Sometimes it's an issue of "I don't know what I want, but I know it's not this" which is kind of M's relationship to his physical masculinity at times. As a partner it's a little perplexing, but I'm blessed to be able to erotocize a lot of variation.

You're fuckin' with my head here, woman! How the hell should I know?

I don't have any frame of reference for this, I just don't. I'm trying to think of something I've ever desperately want to change about myself, and the only thing I've got is cerebral. I'm abstract challenged, but there's no surgery for that.

 

[NervousGuy]

Hmm, well its deffinently something to think about.

 

[intothewoods]

Oh. Thanks for explaining.

I don't understand why a woman, in love with a lesbian, would want to go through the risk and trouble of transitioning to a physical male, or partial male. Did the program give insights into why, or what she hoped to gain from a personal perspective?

It's a simplified sci fi example, but if you woke up and had a C cup and a pussy tomorrow, do you think you'd do anything about it, even if your partner looooved it? That's how off TG people feel with what they're given. Sometimes it's an issue of "I don't know what I want, but I know it's not this" which is kind of M's relationship to his physical masculinity at times. As a partner it's a little perplexing, but I'm blessed to be able to erotocize a lot of variation.

What she said. The program followed three people who identify as gender queer, which is different from transgender (although there is overlap). The term actually encompasses anyone who crosses gender in some way (dressing in drag, etc.), but in this program gender queer referred to people who don't feel they are either male or female.

Have you heard of the book Middlesex, by Jeffrey Eugenides? It's the story of someone who was born neither male or female (has genitals of one gender, but secondary sexual characteristics as well), and the doctors choose when the character is a baby. This happened a lot - maybe it still happens in cases where babies are born with genitals that aren't easily identifiable. If that happens, I can believe people are born with some genetic combination that doesn't make them feel 100% male or female, even if the outside is identifiable.

 

[midwestyankee]

<snip>

Have you heard of the book Middlesex, by Jeffrey Eugenides? It's the story of someone who was born neither male or female (has genitals of one gender, but secondary sexual characteristics as well), and the doctors choose when the character is a baby. This happened a lot - maybe it still happens in cases where babies are born with genitals that aren't easily identifiable. If that happens, I can believe people are born with some genetic combination that doesn't make them feel 100% male or female, even if the outside is identifiable.

For anyone with an adventurous taste in reading, Middlesex is a fabulous read. It's meticulously crafted, exhaustively researched, and compellingly told. My daughter first recommended it to me and I in turn recommended it to my online book club a year or so ago.

And on a more germane note, decaf diet coke does not mitigate the fluid-outflow consequences of a many-cups-of-coffee breakfast meeting. DAMHIKT

 

[Netzach]

You're fuckin' with my head here, woman! How the hell should I know?

Suffice it to say I don't think "woo hoo at last!" would be the response. Safe to say?

 

[intothewoods]

For anyone with an adventurous taste in reading, Middlesex is a fabulous read. It's meticulously crafted, exhaustively researched, and compellingly told. My daughter first recommended it to me and I in turn recommended it to my online book club a year or so ago.

And on a more germane note, decaf diet coke does not mitigate the fluid-outflow consequences of a many-cups-of-coffee breakfast meeting. DAMHIKT

I loved it. But I have a weakness for books which tie in to historical events.

 

[intothewoods]

I had a friend in college whose dad transitioned, and remains married to her mom and their relationship remains very strong in this quiet Scandinavian domestic kind of way (they're immigrants). I don't know if it's still a sexual rel or not, and I'm not about to ask. They're in a not-huge town in the Midwest and it's just approached in a very matter-of-fact manner. Sometimes and for some people the plumbing is trumped by the shared history and enjoyment of one another. Sometimes not. I can see it being a wedge for most couples, it's a lot to accept in one's partner, to have to re-negotiate your own identity and how people are going to view you, not just your spouse.

It's funny, or maybe not. I have seen stories on Oprah or something where a man in a straight couple transitions and they stay together, and I admit I was only marginally sympathetic to the wife. At the end of the day I felt like, you fall in love with a person, not a gender. I guess I don't think about heterosexuality as an identity so much. The lesbian female in this program was just torn apart. She loved this person, clearly, on the one hand. She also felt like, I'm a lesbian and I prefer to be in the company of lesbians. In fact, if all of the men on the planet fell off the face of the earth tomorrow, I don't think I'd notice! Can you imagine you feel like that and the love of your life says, gee honey, I don't want to be female, and moreover starts to look and become, lo and behold, a man?

Although, fuck if that doesn't remind me of my best friend (this year, anyway) Harville Hendrix and the theory that we are attracted to things we don't have within ourselves, things we may hate even.

 

[JMohegan]

What she said. The program followed three people who identify as gender queer, which is different from transgender (although there is overlap). The term actually encompasses anyone who crosses gender in some way (dressing in drag, etc.), but in this program gender queer referred to people who don't feel they are either male or female.

Have you heard of the book Middlesex, by Jeffrey Eugenides? It's the story of someone who was born neither male or female (has genitals of one gender, but secondary sexual characteristics as well), and the doctors choose when the character is a baby. This happened a lot - maybe it still happens in cases where babies are born with genitals that aren't easily identifiable. If that happens, I can believe people are born with some genetic combination that doesn't make them feel 100% male or female, even if the outside is identifiable.

Physical attributes aside, what does it mean to feel "male" or "female"?

Isn't there a spectrum for every personality trait out there? And aren't there men and women at every point along each one of them? Women who are tough, strong, ruthless, pick your traditionally "male" attribute. Men who are gentle, acquiescent, helpful, whatever.

Why isn't "I feel male even though I have female genitals" just a new twist on pre-feminism gender stereotyping?

I'm not trying to criticize anyone for feeling this way. As someone who came of age in the 70's, I just find it ironic. What am I missing? Why is this different?

 

[JMohegan]

Suffice it to say I don't think "woo hoo at last!" would be the response. Safe to say?

Safe indeed.

 

[Netzach]

Physical attributes aside, what does it mean to feel "male" or "female"?

Isn't there a spectrum for every personality trait out there? And aren't there men and women at every point along each one of them? Women who are tough, strong, ruthless, pick your traditionally "male" attribute. Men who are gentle, acquiescent, helpful, whatever.

Why isn't "I feel male even though I have female genitals" just a new twist on pre-feminism gender stereotyping?

I'm not trying to criticize anyone for feeling this way. As someone who came of age in the 70's, I just find it ironic. What am I missing? Why is this different?

It's postfeminist analysis. The archetypes of "male and female" are very strong ones. We're just saying they may or may not match your body. You can do with them what you will, ideally. That's more empowering than being some narrowly androgynous or "women are inherently more in tune with the earth blah blah" ideal. It also allows you to enjoy your bio-gender role as fully and as much as possible - to be the pinkest frilliest submissive girly girl girl that ever walked earth and that's cool. We're all solving this puzzle for ourselves, you're just doing your deal.

Women who are tough, strong, ruthless, pick your traditionally "male" attribute. Men who are gentle, acquiescent, helpful, whatever.

In the Butler/Bornstein kind of world, the point is that I can think "wow, that's pretty masculine of me" without it being gender treason. I'm acknowledging the world as it is, what the commonly agreed constructions of these notions IS, and navigating it creatively. That's where choice, option, and power is to be found.

It means everything prefeminist you think is bad to say "I feel male or female" the difference is that the genitals don't necessarily line up with the archetype. The "gender doesn't matter boys can be nurturing without being sissy" is replaced with "gender does matter. So what if you're a sissy?"

Saying "well we don't have to think of these traits we think of as feminine as being you know FEMinine" is a way of further denigrating the feminine really. Rather than saying "I'm a complicated creature with the impulse to nurture as well as combat, male and female drives in a unique cocktail all my own, like a fingerprint."

 

[intothewoods]

Physical attributes aside, what does it mean to feel "male" or "female"?

Isn't there a spectrum for every personality trait out there? And aren't there men and women at every point along each one of them? Women who are tough, strong, ruthless, pick your traditionally "male" attribute. Men who are gentle, acquiescent, helpful, whatever.

Why isn't "I feel male even though I have female genitals" just a new twist on pre-feminism gender stereotyping?

I'm not trying to criticize anyone for feeling this way. As someone who came of age in the 70's, I just find it ironic. What am I missing? Why is this different?

I don't think this is about personality traits like sensitivity or strength. It is about physicality. I don't fully understand it either, since I've never felt like my body wasn't me, except when I was pregnant, but two out of the three women featured in this program were binding their breasts. One had her breasts removed and had begun taking testosterone. It's one thing to think, gee, it might be hot to use a strap-on or whatever, but it's another to think, I hate my breasts, these are wrong, they shouldn't be there, etc. Gender queer is a big category, so there are people who are just doing post-feminist, post-modern, postwhatever fucking with gender identity, but for the most part it's a man who hates his penis, or a woman who hates her breasts. Someone whose body doesn't feel right.

Bodies don't always do what they are supposed to. I know that feeling.