Advice on Loving Wives

[TimDEnchanter]

I was given this advice two-decades ago by an author who once had scores of red-Hs and a few green-Es but is no longer active here.

(Paraphrased) "Create a separate alt for LW stories, don't let anyone in LW know you have other items in the catalog, they will attack those other stories as well."

Actually this is good advice for just about any category, because someone who loves your Romance offering just won't be able to deal with a story you wrote and published in I/T or Humor. Note that I have no stories published under this alt... Somebody is bound to take offence at something I say on the boards.

 

[Gamblnluck]

LW has a small but vocal misogynistic element, and they will hate on and down vote any story where the woman is not burnt at the stake. It doesn't matter whether she was innocent or not. If she goes on to live a happy life, the BTB crowd will down vote, and comment viciously...
I speak from experience. My stories mostly focus on reconciliation, which the BTB crowd hate....
If you like your story, then do it.

I personally love your stories and read them as soon as I see them regardless of the rating at the time. (I generally screen my readings by ratings as I have limited time to read.) A story where the wife is innocent? Give me an example of one. Generally the wife is cheating and either rubbing her husband's nose in it or is hiding it and making excuses for her actions. Reconciliation is a good and generally acceptable if there is a real reason. (innocence) But when you have reconciliation simply because they love each other? No. That generally does not fly.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I personally love your stories and read them as soon as I see them regardless of the rating at the time. (I generally screen my readings by ratings as I have limited time to read.) A story where the wife is innocent? Give me an example of one. Generally the wife is cheating and either rubbing her husband's nose in it or is hiding it and making excuses for her actions. Reconciliation is a good and generally acceptable if there is a real reason. (innocence) But when you have reconciliation simply because they love each other? No. That generally does not fly.

Agreed. I love Cagivagurl’s stuff, but a lot of it is the textbook definition of RAAC. The one with the wife who went on tour with a band and fucked all of them for weeks, then the leader said so on national TV? Even gets a tattoo to commemorate the experience? And then the husband eventually forgives her for… reasons? Yeah, no.

And then the flip side is if the husband cheats, he’s always an evil monster that deserves the retribution visited upon him. Like, wrote what you want to write, but an occasional change there would be nice. I was glad to see her most recent longer-form one moved away from that formula.

 

[Lifestyle66]

OKAY, I read your essay, and will say it is full of crap. No wonder it was rated so low even in the essay category. I doubt it would have got 2 in LW. First of all, you claim cheating 'enhances' a marriage because it fires up the wife's libido. That is a common trope in the stories and is utter bullshit. If the husband finds out where all of a sudden his wife has got these new ideas, they are likely headed for divorce.
You get the cuckolded husband to suck learn how to deep throat so they might teach their future lovers? Again total crap. Most men would not hesitate to kick you out at the very suggestion.

Your 'essay' was nothing more than mildly covered fantasy. Sure you may have screwed some lonely wife while her husband was serving in the military overseas. I saw it happen often when I was in the Army an even before that with friends of my parents during Viet Nam. But if the returning soldier/sailor ever knew who you were, you might not be here right now.
During Desert Storm, I had a store. The wife of a friend came in and wrote several bad checks. She gave me 'collateral' to not file charges. When the guy returned, I found out how bad it really was. She had almost turned into a coke whore. He told me to keep the collateral as while it was worth far more than the money she got, it was small potatoes to how much she ruined him financially elsewhere. I asked if he was going after any of the guys and he laughed and said if he did, he'd be in jail forever for killing or maiming half the city. All he could do was declare bankruptcy which was hard to do back then while serving and drawing a paycheck. He finally managed it but he was left with his clothes and not much else for a while.

The issue we have with the LW trolls is that while I might not like gay stories or some other fetish stories, I don't go out of my way to open and 1-bomb them. The LW trolls 1-bomb for their own amusement.

Tearing others down for their own fun is sick.

 

[madelinemasoch]

As far as I can see, LW has an unusually high amount of empathetic male readers who feel for the MMCs in the stories. So, if you're "showing a woman as being a bad person", you will get shat on. But if the good person gets justice, the story will fare rather well.

Now ask yourself if those readers, who actually immerse themselves emotionally into your story, are the fans you want.

No. Their motivation isn't empathy because it's rare to see them empathize with women. I once read a story where a woman's life is destroyed and the comments were full of "she deserved it" because she technically cheated on her husband with her boss (power imbalance and sexual impropriety on his part) who she wasn't even physically attracted to or had feelings for. The point of the story was obviously that she didn't deserve it, but it happened anyway; it was more of a tragedy than erotica.

You can write an LW story with a willing cuckold and they'll hate on him too, because they're not motivated by empathy. If it's somebody less slimy than they likely are in real life, they won't empathize with that character. It's an abhorrent attitude of hate-reading amongst many of them there.

Also, somebody not doing something considered bad (cheating) doesn't make them the good person. Harmless does not equal moral.

 

[madelinemasoch]

The main idea is CHEATING is what is hated, not women.

Why is cheating hated in a category that's all about cheating?

 

[madelinemasoch]

So he is gonna be part of the problem. He is facilitating her cheating and then suggest she go home because of what she wants. That is certainly not gonna fly. She might accept what they had as a fling, but neither her husband nor the readers would accept that. She gets her cake and eats it too and her poor hubby sitting at home is the one screwed over.

Sorry but shouldn't that be the fucking point of a cheating story, in a category all about affairs? This readership is ridiculous. "If you do what the category implies, they won't like it." What level of hate-reading are they on?

 

[AchtungNight]

Why is cheating hated in a category that's all about cheating?

I’m going to remind myself to listen excessively to Taylor Swift’s Shake it Off should I actually write this story. It expresses well how I feel about haters.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Respectfully disagree, but it usually is hatred of women. And if a woman wrote it, they get very personal with their attacks of her.

So he is gonna be part of the problem. He is facilitating her cheating and then suggest she go home because of what she wants. That is certainly not gonna fly. She might accept what they had as a fling, but neither her husband nor the readers would accept that. She gets her cake and eats it too and her poor hubby sitting at home is the one screwed over.

 

[Gamblnluck]

EDIT: BTW, I post to LW now and fine tune my stories to study their reactions in both ratings and comments. I find it entertaining and educational to see how people think. That's why I wrote that story and the follow-on " What Were You Thinking? - Therapy" to see how they might take a reasonable response to cheating. (Therapy is at 3.1 with 299 votes and over 16K views.)

The story you wrote was far from a 'reasonable response to cheating', Cheating evokes an emotional response. That response is visceral, not reasonable. That is why the 'it was only sex' answer is NEVER accepted because it is FAR more than that. f you don't honestly see that, empathize with the characters, you will never understand LW readers. Just go somewhere else to write and be done with it.
One reason I still write in LW when I can is I have to cover my plot holes, answer for my character. Characterization is key, followed closely by plot. If the readers identify, they applaud.
Not long ago, I wrote a story in my 'slave' universe where judicial slavery was part of society. The story took 5 or 6 chapters and I guess I did a good enough job, I had people tell me how my character had to react to survive. I had a plan as to how to where it would end, but getting there was a problem. What pleased me was how my readers reacted to the story as it went along. I had that 'hook' I like to see in stories I read. That part of the story that draws you in.

 

[NoTalentHack]

Why is cheating hated in a category that's all about cheating?

First off, it’s not all about cheating. Swinging, sharing, and swapping (the only named activities in the category description) are not cheating. You can kind of see the evolution from there; people started out mostly writing about those. Cheating stories started cropping up, ones where the wife doesn’t get caught, and then later ones where she’s gleefully but secretly cuckolding her husband. Those pissed off some of the folks who were there for the non-cheating content, the stuff where it was about a husband and wife engaging in some variety of ethical nonmonogamy.

People started writing reactions to those stories where the wife didn’t get away with cheating, where there was sone kind of reckoning. Usually it was “and now I’ll cheat, too” or “we’ll work our way though this” or the wife saying “I have this hot friend, let us make it up to you together.” Then it shifted more towards getting divorced and the follow up to it, usually with the husband rebuilding his life.

Yeah, some people go for a hard “she deserves to be destroyed” burn, but the stories that actually do best are in the “moving in and living a better life” vein. Regardless, as I said before, this is the only major place on the web where you can find stories like this, so people come here to read them.

 

[Gamblnluck]

madelinemasoch said:Why is cheating hated in a category that's all about cheating?

That is the point, that authors who fail in that category fail to understand. It is presenting the angst, the anger of the cheating and a justified response to it that makes the story.

 

[SimonDoom]

The story you wrote was far from a 'reasonable response to cheating', Cheating evokes an emotional response. That response is visceral, not reasonable. That is why the 'it was only sex' answer is NEVER accepted because it is FAR more than that. f you don't honestly see that, empathize with the characters, you will never understand LW readers. Just go somewhere else to write and be done with it.

I don't quite understand this. Are you saying that you reject the reality that many couples experience cheating yet still stay together, for different reasons? This happens all the time in the real world. Couples stay together because they still love each other, for the kids, for all kinds of reasons. Do you deny that this happens? Do you believe this is always unacceptable? I don't understand black and white thinking on this issue. Life is not black and white in all cases.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Respectfully disagree, but it usually is hatred of women. And if a woman wrote it, they get very personal with their attacks of her.

No, it is how it is written. Read the story, Cold Range. Told by a woman (I think) but totally from a woman's point of view. Great story.

 

[lovecraft68]

madelinemasoch said:Why is cheating hated in a category that's all about cheating?

That is the point, that authors who fail in that category fail to understand. It is presenting the angst, the anger of the cheating and a justified response to it that makes the story.

LW has had an evolution-or maybe de-evolution-over the years. The category's slug at one point was adventurous wives and I always felt the "Loving" is meant ironically, but I don't think a lot of the real haters there understand that.

It was never a real friendly category, but you could get a decent score a bit more regularly. But it seems as time has gone on the cuck fetish has sunk to extremely humiliating levels that have turned off former readers and really incense the anti-cheat crowd(but to your point why are they there?) and in retaliation the BTB stories were formed as some type of anti-thesis where the cheat haters can read about women getting 'what they deserve' in equally over the top ways.

There are plenty of stories there that don't go to either extreme, but it seems that there are now so many factions, and each with something that triggers them, that its hard to post something that won't be killed by a fair number of people.

I wrote a story back in 2012 in LW that was around the 4.3 range at the start and over time has slipped up to a red H. If I posted that story now it would be annihilated because the tolerant open minded readership has dwindled and moved over to fetish with a lot of the authors trying to write a story and not troll bait.

 

[NoTalentHack]

I don't quite understand this. Are you saying that you reject the reality that many couples experience cheating yet still stay together, for different reasons? This happens all the time in the real world. Couples stay together because they still love each other, for the kids, for all kinds of reasons. Do you deny that this happens? Do you believe this is always unacceptable? I don't understand black and white thinking on this issue. Life is not black and white in all cases.

I don’t deny it. It does happen, and those stories make their way into LW, too. But, like I said before, people are coming here for the fantasy; “we stayed together for the kids,” or, more likely, “I stayed with her because I didn’t want to lose access to my kids” is the reality, and it’s one a lot of guys have had to choke down. “We stayed together because we love each other” shows up, too, but they’re rated poorly for the same reason, or at least similar ones: a lot of these guys don’t believe one spouse can truly love the other if they had a long-standing affair, which is what most of these stories are about, not one-off indiscretions,

 

[Gamblnluck]

have a series of stories for sale featuring a couple, Sam and Kim, and it covers their sexual escapades. It's well into the series before the reader discovers Sam's job is as an escort. But he and his wife have fun with other women together. I have one of the stories here, Happy Birthday, Darling, which has been well received.

You lost me at 'for sale'. Yeah, I'd love to be paid a penny each time one of my stories is read..... but,,,

 

[madelinemasoch]

That is the point, that authors who fail in that category fail to understand. It is presenting the angst, the anger of the cheating and a justified response to it that makes the story.

So, have you seen unjustified responses to the cheating get hatred? I haven't really seen that. I've seen the opposite, where a cheating wife's life is completely ruined and the commenters cheer.

 

[madelinemasoch]

First off, it’s not all about cheating. Swinging, sharing, and swapping (the only named activities in the category description) are not cheating.

This is semantic. It's true that the category includes these things but it's still extramarital sex.

 

[MajorRewrite]

You still do not understand what ticks off the readers. It is mainly, the wife trying to get over on their husbands. Here are some examples:
1. The possibility of kids sired by other men but raised by the husband is foreign to most men. It is accepted if you adopt a kid from the woman's previous relationship, but not have it foisted on him by her getting pregnant.
2. Similar to the first, the weak ass hubby says 'Yes ma'am' and allows her to get pregnant by whoever and even participates to some degree by either facilitating the affair or doing nothing to stop or end it.
3. The wife unilaterally tells the hubby she is going to screw around and he can accept it or get crucified in court. And often at the same time telling him he will NOT engage in sex outside the marriage, or else.
4. The wife tells the hubby it is a one time thing to make her feel good and she will make it up to him. The idea here is her idea of how to make it up is hot sex where she still benefits. It cannot make up for his angst of having her throw it in his face. He'll feel like an ass if he lets her get away with it, but she never understands that as it was 'only sex'.

LW is loaded with dopey plots that never happen in real life, yet they are repeated over and over. You’ve described 4 of them nicely. The BTB writers use these unrealistic plots simply as a reason for the husband to get mad. It’s all so contrived and weird.

 

[lovecraft68]

First off, it’s not all about cheating. Swinging, sharing, and swapping (the only named activities in the category description) are not cheating.

What I don't understand about that is those things are staples of group sex, so going by the description, it seems like a redundant category.

I think they could change it to things like Hotwife, Stag, Vixen, cuckold and even add "gasp" cheating so at least there's a disclaimer.

Then again, most of the people who go there daily to wallow in being angry know what's in it and go there anyway so it probably makes no difference to anyone who's been here awhile.

 

[NoTalentHack]

There are plenty of stories there that don't go to either extreme, but it seems that there are now so many factions, and each with something that triggers them, that its hard to post something that won't be killed by a fair number of people.

That’s part of what makes it fun to write there. Things I’ve gotten a better-than-expected score on:

* A buddy comedy cuck/bull bromance
* An anti-capitalism screed disguised as an Indecent Proposal story
* My brain on too much caffeine drawing parallels between medieval indulgences, reverse mortgages, and 360 degree recording industry contracts, re: their application in rebuilding trust post-infidelity
* An X-Men AU where Cyclops gets to beat the shit out of Wolverine for trying to steal his wife
* A noir revenge story
* A Black Mirror episode before I ever watched Black Mirror
* A one-act play of sorts about death and its effect on the ability to forgive
* A love story spanning fifty years

And a whole lot more. Did the anonymous commenters like all of these? Nope. Did more of them than the typical “LW is full of misogynists” crowds would expect? Yup.

 

[lovecraft68]

LW is loaded with dopey plots that never happen in real life, yet they are repeated over and over. You’ve described 4 of them nicely. The BTB writers use these unrealistic plots simply as a reason for the husband to get mad. It’s all so contrived and weird.

Forget the BTB stories, the most amusing things are the comments
"And then the husband whacks the guy with a hammer and kills him, then sells the wife to a sex trafficker..." or the "If that was me I'd beat the shit out of both of them and..." there's ones that go on and on and could be their own story, but all that tough talk makes me laugh because I always see the poster as being a hundred pounds over weight in underwear he's worn for two days and a pile of Schlitz empties around him.

 

[NoTalentHack]

What I don't understand about that is those things are staples of group sex, so going by the description, it seems like a redundant category.

It is, sort of. But there’s the extra spice (for some people) of the “taboo” nature. Remember, too, the site was started 25 years ago; we have an anal category, as well, which just seems quaint.

 

[lovecraft68]

* An X-Men AU where Cyclops gets to beat the shit out of Wolverine for trying to steal his wife

I can see why that would go over well, I found that triangle annoying AF.