About that Muslim Brotherhood...

[zipman]

Soooo, 'arrogance and ignorance' is the new meme you're marching to? Afterall, if it's working with Palin, why not with Ishmael? *chuckle*

Technologies "profound" effect on the Muslim world has done nothing more than point out how terribly backwards they are. How they have failed to progress as a cultural mass. And they are backwards due to their own systems put in place by their religious beliefs. And the ultimate irony is that they blame the western world for their self-inflicted problems. From the 13th century to the 18th century they had their world virtually to themselves and while western civilization experienced an explosion of science and the arts, what was going on in the lands of Islam? --------- Nothing, absolutely nothing. They are still yapping about the Crusades for crying out loud, blaming everyone for their problems but themselves. Unfortunately there are more than a few guilt ridden westerners that have bought into their line of shit.

Quite frankly I'd like nothing more than to isolate them from the rest of the world and let them go back to sacking each others cities in the name of Allah. Unfortunately the fact that they sit astride some major trade routes and are squatting on a sea of oil makes that alternative a virtual impossibility.

I challenge you to offer up one major aspect of Islamic culture you would like to see imposed on western civilization. Just one positive benefit.

Ishmael

Perhaps if you weren't so arrogant and ignorant, you would have responded to my post about how their is no reason to fear a Caliphate or the Brotherhood's alleged threat to the west instead of challenging me to prove something I've never asserted.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

I never called Bush a neo-Nazi nor did I ever inisuate that he was. Answer me one question, what gives the US the right to determine who gets to participate in the governments of other nations.


As for your continued use of ad hominem, do you really think it bothers me that you keep posting the "ordinality quote." You make yourself look like a hypocritcal moron by doing so. It's actually funny because you're too blinded by your hate to even see it.

Billions upon billions of dollars in aid. If they don't want a partner, all they have to do is "Just say no."

And the quote is just a general reminder that when it comes to understanding the subject at hand, you go more by "truthiness" than actual fact.

And one times anything is anything.

What's that one beautiful thing you want from Islam?
__________________

How about the strict separation of english and stupidity?

Ordinality isn't a word.

 

[Ishmael]

Perhaps if you weren't so arrogant and ignorant, you would have responded to my post instead of challenging me to prove something I've never asserted.

Moron.

*yawn*

Still waiting for an answer.

Ishmael

 

[zipman]

Billions upon billions of dollars in aid. If they don't want a partner, all they have to do is "Just say no."

And the quote is just a general reminder that when it comes to understanding the subject at hand, you go more by "truthiness" than actual fact.

And one times anything is anything.

What's that one beautiful thing you want from Islam?
__________________

The Egyptian people are sick of being repressed and tortured. I don't think we should be partnering with a dictator that does that as it doesn't represent what this country is supposed to be about.

I guess bringing freedom and democracy was just somehow better when Bush was president.

No, the quote is an actual ad hominem attack. You know, the thing you cry about everyone else doing even when they're not? I made and error and owned up to it. If you think I'll feel some sort of shame for not knowing a word, you completely mistaken.

Btw, I'm glad you finally understand the concept and no longer think that "one times anything is one." I'm glad I was able to teach you something useful.

I don't want anything from Islam. But that's not the point, is it?

 

[zipman]

*yawn*

Still waiting for an answer.

Ishmael

So am I and I asked my question first. You're deflection technique isn't working Ish. Maybe you're just too arrogant to realize that?

Btw, I loved how you compared yourself to Sarah Palin. Yes, you're both victims.

 

[The_Trouvere]

Democracies have seldom resulted from violent revolutions. They have emerged when absolute monarchs or dictators have felt the need to make concessions in order to avoid being overthrown, and perhaps executed.

Now, of course absolute monarchs and dictators do not want to make concessions. Absolute power is absolutely delightful.

Since at least the end of the Second World War American foreign policy has frequently supported absolute monarchs, like the Shah of Iran, or dictators - here the list is long - out of the fear that something like an indigenous Communist Party, or the Muslim Brotherhood would win an election.

Quite apart from the moral problems with supporting authoritarian rule, this policy has not been in America's long term interest. To begin with, political and religious fanatics by their nature are more likely to survive under an authoritarian government than the kind of people who in the United States would join an organization like Common Cause.

Also, by fortifying dictators with the belief that reform is not necessary because of American support, American support has encouraged the dictators to behave in ways that were unpopular.

Once things reach a crises point, there is little the United States can do to keep a client dictator in power but occupy the country on his behalf. That did not work in South Vietnam. It would not have worked in Iran. It will not work in Egypt.

At this point, there is not much we can do in Egypt, but to leave the Egyptians alone. In the future we should stop supporting dictatorships.

The only real friend we have in the area is Israel. We should make sure that Israel is safe, always.

 

[artlover637]

The only real friend we have in the area is Israel. We should make sure that Israel is safe, always.

But if the MB gain more influence in Egypt, Israel's existence is finite.

 

[Beco]

But if the MB gain more influence in Egypt, Israel's existence is finite.

Who is going to take them out? But what's funny to me is, Arabs want Jews gone, ok, Jews gone, guess what, nothing will change for them... just a bunch of people living in the desert.

 

[vrosej10]

Actually the world should ashamed of it. What country are you from and what actions did they take to stop it?

Australia and not impressed with our actions either but we seem to be the US's butt boy and follow them only into conflicts. My point was that the US sticks their nose lots of conflicts but only for self serving reasons and then claims its motives are humanitarian.

 

[vrosej10]

See, on one hand you blast for meddling, and then turn around and condemn for not...

What I am saying is pick an apporach. Totally commit or back off because the middle is causing more problems than it solves.

 

[vrosej10]

See, on one hand you blast for meddling, and then turn around and condemn for not...

What I am saying is pick an approach. Totally commit or back off because the middle is causing more problems than it solves.

 

[jeninflorida]

how will Egypt turn out? Iran 2.0?

Democracies have seldom resulted from violent revolutions. They have emerged when absolute monarchs or dictators have felt the need to make concessions in order to avoid being overthrown, and perhaps executed.

Now, of course absolute monarchs and dictators do not want to make concessions. Absolute power is absolutely delightful.

Since at least the end of the Second World War American foreign policy has frequently supported absolute monarchs, like the Shah of Iran, or dictators - here the list is long - out of the fear that something like an indigenous Communist Party, or the Muslim Brotherhood would win an election.

Quite apart from the moral problems with supporting authoritarian rule, this policy has not been in America's long term interest. To begin with, political and religious fanatics by their nature are more likely to survive under an authoritarian government than the kind of people who in the United States would join an organization like Common Cause.

Also, by fortifying dictators with the belief that reform is not necessary because of American support, American support has encouraged the dictators to behave in ways that were unpopular.

Once things reach a crises point, there is little the United States can do to keep a client dictator in power but occupy the country on his behalf. That did not work in South Vietnam. It would not have worked in Iran. It will not work in Egypt.

At this point, there is not much we can do in Egypt, but to leave the Egyptians alone. In the future we should stop supporting dictatorships.

The only real friend we have in the area is Israel. We should make sure that Israel is safe, always.

 

[Beco]

how will Egypt turn out? Iran 2.0?

Meet the new boss.....same as the old boss

I want to see, if and when they install that new government, how they deal with the Gaza border, if they keep the peace agreement with Israel, and what they plan to do with their faltering economy, which basically created the whole mess in the first place.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

Just a happy go lucky bunch of secular organizers, like so many before, that we we're "stupid" to be afraid of, less than 10% of Islam took down the Twin Towers (which caused quite some consternation and wailing about connect the dots, connect the dots, how could we not connect the dots??? Prior to that though, it was, the Taliban??? wtf??? All they did was blow up some ancient Buddhist statues, you're afraid of THAT!!!)...

I sure the hell hope this works out well for Egypt. Lord knows the Left is dancing in the streets full of pent up "I told you so" Iraq redux, but here's the problem with the Left. They though the Ayatollah was a gentle man of Gawd and the people. If we go back just a bit further, we've seen the Times and the Left of the time marvel over Hitler, Mussolini, and even Stalin, to the point where they would report no wrong-doing (Ukraine), which was a pattern they eerily repeated with Saddam, backing him to the very bitter end as being the best thing for holding Iraq together.

My fear is that this will not end well. If it does go well, like it did in Iraq, they will quietly assume credit where none is due. If it goes badly, as it most often does, todays heroes of Socialism suddenly become radical right-wing ideologues either because they are totalitarians or religious nuts who want women out of schools, into burkas and for homosexuals to have their heads cut off.

One thing that was quite clear yesterday, that after 18 days of trying to cover all their bases with mixed messages and confusing signals, our President gave one hell of a great speech, the one he's been dying to give for over two weeks now as the grand launching point of his 2012 reelection bid; youth, change, DEMOCRACY...,

Here's something to chew on:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110212/ts_nm/us_witness_egypt_sudan

Now, after the revolution in Sudan, we have...

[Qoute]Juba - More than 100 people are now said to have died in fighting in south Sudan after rebels attacked the army, officials say.
*
Earlier reports said this week's fighting had killed 16 people.
*
Some 39 of those killed were civilians, a south Sudan army spokesman said.
*
The clashes between fighters loyal to George Athor and south Sudan's army come as the region prepare for independence from the north following last month's referendum.
*
Some 99% of people voted to secede from the north, according to official results announced this week.
*
The UN refugee agency says it expects some 800,000 people to move from north to south Sudan this year.
*
The UNHCR said this would put pressure on the already fragile situation in the south, which is insecure and lacks basic services.
*
Mr Athor took up arms last year, alleging fraud in state elections, but signed a ceasefire last month just before the historic vote.[/Quote]

http://www.portalangop.co.ao/motix/...lei,c2172fa3-a896-48d0-8c76-b055d2927282.html

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

What I am saying is pick an approach. Totally commit or back off because the middle is causing more problems than it solves.

Me, I'd opt for Libertarian Isolation, but that sits not well with the altruists and socialists that make up a large percentage of our citizenry...

 

[miles]

What I am saying is pick an approach. Totally commit or back off because the middle is causing more problems than it solves.

The middle of what?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

How fitting that it was Juma — Friday, the Islamic Sabbath day — that convinced Hosni Mubarak to end his 30-year reign as Egypt’s ruler.

This was only hours after James Clapper, the U.S. director of national intelligence, told Congress that Mubarak’s main opposition, the Muslim Brotherhood, is “largely secular” in nature. Mr. Clapper was merely echoing the American media, taking pains to brand Egypt’s uprising as secular, democratic, and Islamist-free. It is a narrative divorced from reality. In Egypt, a self-consciously devout Islamic country, nothing is secular and Islamist-free, and therefore nothing is truly democratic, not in the Western sense.

It is on Juma that Muslims attend weekly communal prayers. Out they then pour from thousands of mosques, with fiery sermons by some of the ummah’s most fundamentalist imams still ringing in their ears. On Thursday night, when Mubarak defiantly said he wasn’t going anywhere, that he would not relinquish all his powers, the throng gathered in Tahrir Square was outraged. Outraged crowds the police state could handle. Crowds inflamed by the imams are a different story. Those would be the crowds on Friday. It was time to go.

So Mubarak is gone. Just as Sadat is gone, and Nasser, and King Farouk, and the Brits. The Brotherhood has outlasted all of them. Time after time, it has been repressed, persecuted, driven underground, and officially banned. The Brotherhood survives and thrives in Egypt because its credo — “Allah is our objective, the Prophet is our leader, the Koran is our law, jihad is our way, and dying in the way of Allah is our highest objective” — concisely speaks the sentiments of Islamic Egypt. It survives and thrives throughout the Islamic world because its Salafist ideology admonishes Muslims to take Mohammed, Islam’s warrior prophet, as their guide and to honor the principles of Islam’s founders, the “rightly guided caliphs.”

That is not to say all Muslims agree with the Brotherhood’s call to install strict sharia. Many don’t. It is a disagreement, though, that is perilous to voice. The Brotherhood perceives itself, and is widely perceived, as guardian of the true Islam. If you’re a Muslim, you can rationalize that the Islamists are too retrograde, too literal in their construction of doctrine. In the confines of your mind, you can admire Western thought and the place it reserves in faith for reason — an attribute on which Islam slammed shut its “gates of Ijtihad” a millennium ago. You can insist, in the silence of your conscience, that while you will take sharia as your private ethical guide, you have no interest in its public program. But you won’t say it aloud.

...

Much of what inspired Hassan al-Banna to create the Brotherhood in 1928 was rage over the purging of Islam from public life in Turkey. Muslims the world over were horrified by Kemal Atatürk’s dismantling of the Caliphate — even though it was by then an empty shell, bereft of any but symbolic value. Just as the Brotherhood has outlasted its Egyptian oppressors, however, Banna’s vision has prevailed over Atatürk’s. Each day, the regime in Turkey, a strong ally of the Brotherhood’s, moves the country deeper into the Islamist fold. In an overwhelmingly Muslim country, the pull of the Brotherhood’s ideology remained powerful, even through an 80-year secularization project.

Now, Mubarak is gone. And with President Obama’s penchant for both engaging Islamist organizations in the U.S. and indulging even the ruthless Islamist leaders in Tehran, the Brotherhood knows the current administration won’t dare use the lush U.S. financial support of Egypt as leverage to deny the Brotherhood a powerful role in the new government.

Nobody knows this better than James Clapper. He cannot possibly believe the Brotherhood is secular. He can believe only that you can be duped into thinking the Brotherhood is secular. The administration has to do something because, in Egypt, a Brotherhood-influenced government is now inevitable. And we’ve seen in Turkey how Brotherhood-influenced becomes Brotherhood-dominated in short order.

The Obama administration is preparing the political ground for failure.

Andrew C. McCarthy
NRO

 

[vrosej10]

The middle of what?

The middle apporach between total involvement and doing nothing. Middle meddling. Fuck off or go nuclear.

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

The middle apporach between total involvement and doing nothing. Middle meddling. Fuck off or go nuclear.

Now you're justifying busybody's approach to the iSlammers...

 

[vrosej10]

Me, I'd opt for Libertarian Isolation, but that sits not well with the altruists and socialists that make up a large percentage of our citizenry...

There is no way on earth the US could go a solid week without getting up in someones business, forcing their cultural norms on other countries or trying to rip someone of in the trade arena. You lot would need a cultural enema and some kind of twelve step program!

 

[vrosej10]

Now you're justifying busybody's approach to the iSlammers...

This is instruction for the US only. You lot fiddle in other people's business just enough to render them dependant on you and then wander off whistling...

 

[Ishmael]

So am I and I asked my question first. You're deflection technique isn't working Ish. Maybe you're just too arrogant to realize that?

Btw, I loved how you compared yourself to Sarah Palin. Yes, you're both victims.

I answered your semi-question about a new Caliphate.

As far as the people of Egypt are concerned, beyond the abstract notion that they should be living better lives I could give a shit less. My belief that 90% of the worlds problems is caused by governments, organizations, and individuals that insist on sticking their nose into the business of others remains unshaken. This is especially true when it comes to governments and organizations that attempt to use governments as their tool.

If, by some miracle, the people of Egypt end up with some democratic form of a secular state no one will be more pleased than I. But I see that as an event with a very low probability of occurring. It is much more likely that they're going to end up with a different form of dictatorship in the form of a military junta or Islamic council, an entity that will have complete control of which candidates are 'qualified' to run for office, ending up with a 'democratic' form that in reality is nothing more than a sham. That being the case I see the military junta as being the preferable form for the long term stability of the region and in the best interest of my country, the US. Regardless of which form takes precedent the poor people of Egypt will still be poor and still be disappeared and jailed depending on their political views. In other words not a hell of a lot is going to change for them.

Ishmael

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

There is no way on earth the US could go a solid week without getting up in someones business, forcing their cultural norms on other countries or trying to rip someone of in the trade arena. You lot would need a cultural enema and some kind of twelve step program!

We're supposed to get ripped off?

Maybe that's your problem Down Under...

 

[miles]

The middle apporach between total involvement and doing nothing. Middle meddling. Fuck off or go nuclear.

And what is that exactly?

 

[Frisco_Slug_Esq]

We'll see how long before the Junior Officers defect to the Ayatoh..., er..., uh..., the secular Brotherhood...





It's not like food prices or energy are going to go down as long as we in the US are inflating them with debt, ethanol, and central-interventionist public-sector union "productivity..."