closed Thread

[Lazaran]

just dropping this here as a thought:

someone asked why aren't people condemning as overtly the atrocities being committed by other countries when they're so vocal about Israel's? (though there has been widespread and damning condemnation of Russia's actions in Ukraine)

I'd suggest it's because Israel is an American ally, one which America helps enormously with funding and war-toys for its own defense. It is therefore DIRECTLY tied to the U.S in regards of how it comports itself in the war arena and its actions can create big problems for the U.S. When it demands help yet is loathe to work with the U.S in considering its responses and those responses bring the world closer to all-out global conflict, then Israel is much more likely to be criticized than some other country with no existing treaties or alliances with the U.S.

plus it's in the damned news all the time, so is a current talking point amongst the U.S population.

I believe what is being criticized, is the lack of criticism of Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, and the Houthis, etc - because they, like Russia, are the aggressors in / instigators of this crisis - and the excessive focus on / scrutiny of the Israel - Hamas conflict. (Especially Israel’s actions.)

Criticizing Israel is like criticizing Ukraine.



You are correct in believing that the goal of the genocidal Arabs / Muslims is to have the U.S. stop supporting Israel militarily, etc. (That was / is the entire point of Hamas, etc, continuing the conflict by refusing to release the hostages, launching attacks from civilian areas, and then screaming and crying every time Israel retaliates, while simultaneously blaming Israel alone for the civilian casualties that Hamas, etc, are ultimately responsible for.)

Fuck that ^ !!!

 

[Lazaran]

Nothing to see here, just a peaceful little pogrom against Christians in Jerusalem last month. This will all go away once Hamas surrenders...

https://www.reddit.com/r/MindBlowingThings/comments/1g2w78i/do_you_think_if_you_were_christian_you_would_be

Seriously, Rob???



That video has about as much context as that video you posted where the older Muslim girl attacks the younger Jewish girl for "something"…

 

[deckardB26354]

Criticizing Israel is like criticizing Ukraine.

You are correct in believing that the goal of the genocidal Arabs / Muslims is to have the U.S. stop supporting Israel militarily, etc. (That was / is the entire point of Hamas, etc, continuing the conflict by refusing to release the hostages, launching attacks from civilian areas, and then screaming and crying every time Israel retaliates, while simultaneously blaming Israel alone for the civilian casualties that Hamas, etc, are ultimately responsible for.)

Bullshit. Ukraine is not bombing schools, homes, hospitals and the like and starving out blockaded and occupied Russians.

Any time that the word “genocide” is used against Israel it’s all OMG YOU ANTI-SEMITES YOU ALL HATE ISRAEL!!, but here you can use it like you’re talking about the weather. Funny that.

 

[Hel_Books]

Or … the Islamic regime in Iran is overthrown by an internal revolution. Hamas and Hezbollah collapse because their leadership has been eliminated and they no longer have Iran’s backing, Lebanon and the new government of Iran sign peace treaties with Israel.

I worry that Hamas might execute the remaining hostages out of spite if the IDF can’t get to them in time, but otherwise prospects are looking good for peace in the Middle East.

Predicting is hard about the future of the Middle East. In 1948 when the last of the empires dissolved (and there have been so many empires. Here is a sampling: Alexander the Great, Rome, the Moslem invasion under al-Khattab, the Ottomans, the British . . . .) the smart money would not have bet that the Israelis would have been able to keep the little postage stamp they were allocated, but they survived, as they have for five thousand years, at least.

Last year, nobody would have predicted (well, the Israeli border guards did warn, but they were somehow ignored) that the Moslems would have been able to perpetrate the greatest slaughter of Jews since the days of the Nazis.

It seems anything is possible, from the Iranians starting a nuclear war that sterilizes the whole Middle East to the Gaza residents being evacuated to Egypt (lots of space there, just look at the map!) and the Fatah Palestinian Authority people moving into Jordan.

 

[Lazaran]

Bullshit. Ukraine is not bombing schools, homes, hospitals and the like and starving out blockaded and occupied Russians.

Any time that the word “genocide” is used against Israel it’s all OMG YOU ANTI-SEMITES YOU ALL HATE ISRAEL!!, but here you can use it like you’re talking about the weather. Funny that.

You omitted a fairly important part of my comment:

I believe what is being criticized, is the lack of criticism of Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, and the Houthis, etc - because they, like Russia, are the aggressors in / instigators of this crisis - and the excessive focus on / scrutiny of the Israel - Hamas conflict. (Especially Israel’s actions.)

Hope that ^ helps.

 

[Hel_Books]

Iran is the problem. At least five Presidents have promised the Iranians would never get a nuclear weapon, except Joe Biden. By being weak on Iran, giving them billions upon billions, and not enforcing American sanctions, Joe Biden has funded this war against Israel. The bottom line is if Joe won't do it, Israel will have to go after Iran's nuclear infrastructure in order to survive as a nation.

On the other hand, if nuclear weapons could help a nation advance its foreign policy, why have countries like the USA, Russia and the UK seen their influence in the world weaken so much? Even China's growing nuke arsenal is so much bluster when it comes to Taiwan!

What would Iran do if it built a bomb? Say, "We demand <fill in the blank> and if you don't accede to our demand we will nuke you!" Doesn't seem too productive, does it?

The United States is loaded with nukes. Didn't stop Hamas from kidnapping their citizens last October 7.

 

[deckardB26354]

You omitted a fairly important part of my comment:

Hey, I don’t tell you how to compose your posts, you do the same for me please. I set a certain context with your post for my comments. ‘Nuff said.

 

[Lazaran]

Hey, I don’t tell you how to compose your posts, you do the same for me please. I set a certain context with your post for my comments. ‘Nuff said.

I’ll be direct:

Hamas (Iran) are the bad guys - just like Russia is the bad guy; full stop.

If Israel had stormed into Gaza on 10/7 and raped, tortured, murdered, and kidnapped a bunch of innocent Palestinians my position would be the polar opposite of what it currently is.

Does that ^ help???

 

[deckardB26354]

I’ll be direct:

Hamas (Iran) are the bad guys - just like Russia is the bad guy; full stop.

If Israel had stormed into Gaza on 10/7 and raped, tortured, murdered, and kidnapped a bunch of innocent Palestinians my position would be the polar opposite of what it currently is.

I’ll be direct right back to you…

Hamas ≠ Palestinians full stop

The more that you keep forgetting (or purposely omitting) that fact, the more it makes you look like the “good people on both sides” orange guy.

 

[Politruk]

I’ll be direct:

Hamas (Iran)

You mean Hezbollah. Hamas has nothing to do with Iran because Hamas is Sunni, not Shi'a. Same reason Iran never had anything to do with ISIS, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or the Muslim Brotherhood. This is like blaming the Vatican for Protestant terrorism.

 

[Lazaran]

I’ll be direct right back to you…

Hamas ≠ Palestinians full stop

The more that you keep forgetting (or purposely omitting) that fact, the more it makes you look like the “good people on both sides” orange guy.

The Palestinians, etc, should have risen up against Hamas, etc, by now…

Sans that ^ the Israelis are having to deal with Hamas, etc.

 

[Lazaran]

You mean Hezbollah. Hamas has nothing to do with Iran because Hamas is Sunni, not Shi'a. Same reason Iran never had anything to do with ISIS, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or the Muslim Brotherhood. This is like blaming the Vatican for Protestant terrorism.

 

[Politruk]

But I'm not wrong. These sectarian divisions might seem silly to infidels, but to Muslims, they matter. That's why Iran and Saudi Arabia are backing different factions in Yemen. No Jews involved in THAT war.

 

[deckardB26354]

The Palestinians, etc, should have risen up against Hamas, etc, by now…

Sans that ^ the Israelis are having to deal with Hamas, etc.

You are so right! Slaves should have stood up to their masters and all of those guests of every concentration camp should have got up and just left, correct?

If you find that last statement ludicrous, then guess what I think about your last post?

 

[Lazaran]

You are so right! Slaves should have stood up to their masters and all of those guests of every concentration camp should have got up and just left, correct?

If you find that last statement ludicrous, then guess what I think about your last post?

My comment was comprehensive.

Israel is in the process of freeing the Palestinian “slaves” from their Hamas masters, while simultaneously eliminating the terrorist threat to Israel posed by Hamas.

Would it have been better if Israel’s actions hadn’t been necessary??? Yes, but this is the reality we live in.

 

[Politruk]

Israel is in the process of freeing the Palestinian “slaves” from their Hamas masters . . .

Their masters are Israeli, not Hamas.

 

[Lazaran]

Their masters are Israeli, not Hamas.

 

[deckardB26354]

My comment was comprehensive.

Israel is in the process of freeing the Palestinian “slaves” from their Hamas masters, while simultaneously eliminating the terrorist threat to Israel posed by Hamas.

Would it have been better if Israel’s actions hadn’t been necessary??? Yes, but this is the reality we live in.

Are you fucking kidding me?

So ISRAEL is the hero here, yes? They’re coming in like a knight on a white horse (or maybe camel is more apropos) to save the poor people of Palestine. They just use airstrikes to kill Hamas—and only Hamas, yes?

Gee, I sure hope that Israel is okay with the US government. I hope they don’t start lobbing missiles at us because they think we’re slaves and want to save us.

What a weird take on this, but hey you do you I guess.

 

[GhostFence2024]

If someone removed America from their land the way Israel did the Palestinians we'd be nuking their asses until they glowed in the dark.

What's right and wrong depends on how powerful you are.

 

[Lazaran]

Are you fucking kidding me?

So ISRAEL is the hero here, yes? They’re coming in like a knight on a white horse (or maybe camel is more apropos) to save the poor people of Palestine. They just use airstrikes to kill Hamas—and only Hamas, yes?

Gee, I sure hope that Israel is okay with the US government. I hope they don’t start lobbing missiles at us because they think we’re slaves and want to save us.

What a weird take on this, but hey you do you I guess.

Um, YOU are the one who equated the Palestinians to “slaves” who were / are in no position to rise up against their masters (Hamas).



And, yes, I don’t see many good options for resolving the crisis.

Israel has chosen a course of action that is not wholly unreasonable considering the existential threat they are facing.

Hamas refusing to cede their smuggling corridor with Egypt and their demand that they remain in power after 10/7 made any long term ceasefire deal impossible, imho.

Hamas should have unconditionally surrendered and released the hostages after it became apparent that Israel was going to prosecute total war on Gaza, and the leaders and participants of the 10/7 attack should have turned themselves over to international authorities for trial.

Hamas employed the terrorist gambit of hostage taking and demand making, and Israel called their bluff. (Hamas also tried / is trying to foment a global Jihad - with limited success - and is simultaneously trying to get arms shipments to Israel cut off) At some point (long ago), Hamas should have thrown in their hand to spare the Palestinians - but they didn’t.



Update:

The U.S. is sending our most advanced anti-missile system to Israel, along with 100 troops, in advance of Israel’s inevitable retaliation on Iran for Iran’s massive ballistic missile attack. The system will also help protect northern Israel from Hezbollah rockets and missiles. Iran now faces the very real prospect of the U.S. becoming actively involved in the conflict, after a year of Iran and their proxies terrorizing the region.

I wish it weren’t so, but this is the reality we are living in. Deterrence only works if severe consequences are levied in response to aggressive behavior, like 10/7, etc.

 

[coati]

And, yes, I don’t see many good options for resolving the crisis.

Israel has chosen a course of action that is not wholly unreasonable considering the existential threat they are facing.

You keep talking about Israel as if they are a monolith of opinion, rather than considering the ways that Netanyahu has cut off diplomatic options for "resolving the crisis".

Netanyahu undermined Obama's effort to control the development of nukes in Iran. This was dumb, because if you extrapolate the "unresolvable" and increasingly entrenched conflict to a final stage, it involves nuclear warfare.

Netanyahu messed in American politics to steer his conflict away from diplomatic resolutions and toward military options. He played his literal Trump card against the Democrats. As a result, Obama's nuclear monitoring deal with Iran was abandoned during the Trump administration.

Netanyahu totally blew off Biden when safe camps were desperately needed in southern Gaza for war refugees who had just been driven from the north. If you don't want to be equated with a terrorist regime like Hamas, why should you be allowed to behave like one during a war? Blocking humanitarian aid during a war sugnificantly reduces options for "resolving the crisis".

Israel has a leadership problem that is foreclosing available options. You are trying to make this a black-and-white situation where people who criticize Netanyahu's decisions are vilified as being anti-Israel..

It's not that simple, and if Netanyahu continues to say "Fuck you" to the allies who are supplying him with weapons, Israel will have even fewer options for "resolving the crisis".

 

[Politruk]

Israel has chosen a course of action that is not wholly unreasonable considering the existential threat they are facing.

Not from Hamas, they're not. Israel has NEVER faced any existential threat since the Yom Kippur War.

 

[Hel_Books]

I wonder how people will look back on this after another century has gone by.

Think about the crisis in the Balkans in 1914 that set off the first World War (which led, indirectly, to the second). If people had known then what the result of their actions would be if they set off on the course of total war, would they have behaved differently?

Also, by the way, the nation that suffered the worst casualties (as a percentage of population) in World War I was Serbia, and it was Serbian terrorists who started the whole conflagration in the first place. Some estimates have more than a quarter of the population dying.

 

[coati]

Not from Hamas, they're not. Israel has NEVER faced any existential threat since the Yom Kippur War.

I do not quibble over whether the threats Israel faces are cumulatively existential in nature. I KNOW they face threats, and my points have nothing to do with that issue.

My arguments are strictly based on the most effective ways to deal with threats to Israel, and Netanyahu has been cutting off options. He needs to be fired by the Israeli electorate.

 

[ShandyLeer]

Nethanyahu’s in the unsavoury position of being pretty damn sure that an end to this current conflict will bring forward the end of his leadership. The incentive to stop isn’t really there, nor is the US administration in a political position at the moment to lean too hard on him to create the incentive for him.

The THAAD missile deployment must indicate some sort of politicking going on though.