Below the belt

[butters]

The latest action I have heard is that the IDF is preparing for ground invasion in Lebanon.

What has become of negotiating a two-state solution? Working on a hostage release?
They’re not in Lebanon

^^ this

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

This debate has devolved into the Chicken/Egg question. In this case, the Palestinian were here first.
They were called Philistines in the Bible.
Many of the early books in the OT describe conflict as Israel left Egypt in search of a homeland.
I’m halfway through the Book of Judges and the Tribes are smiting all around them with mixed success, but they spare no men, women or children.

The latest action I have heard is that the IDF is preparing for ground invasion in Lebanon.

What has become of negotiating a two-state solution? Working on a hostage release?
They’re not in Lebanon

Hezbollah in Lebanon has fired over 8000 missiles at Israel over the past year killing dozens of Israelis and forcing 10s of thousands to flee their homes. During this ongoing attack from the north, Israel’s main focus was on the south in Gaza where the hostages were being held. If Israel invades Lebanon, it will be to finally put an end to the attacks against it by Hezbollah.

Operations in Gaza will continue to free the hostages.

 

[butters]

Sorry, butters, but you are waaaaaaay off base here:

no apologies required for civil discourse

It is the Palestinians, etc, that don’t want Israel to exist; full stop.

And yet we have seen and heard countless Israelis and their supporters wishing the same for Palestinians. I would posit that the two are not mutually exclusive.

Israel isn’t going out like a boiled frog.



It may even come down to Israel nuking Iran, etc.

Israel has been active in both defending itself from attacks AND in being the attacker... as we speak they're preparing their ground invasion into Lebanon. The boiled frog analogy depends on the frog remaining entirely passive and unaware. Israel is no frog.

I hope that the evil Arab / Muslim cabal get the message from the destruction of Gaza and what is happening in Lebanon, and that they abandon their evil strategy of trying to boil Israel like a frog before Israel exercises their full capabilities to defend themselves.

Things cannot be allowed to progress as far as a nuclear option. We can't just sit back and 'hope'... external forces need to apply as much diplomatic force to try and quell the attacks by hezbollah, by hamas AND by the IDF.

It almost sounds like you can accept the se of 'full capabilities' when you know what that really means; if a nuke gets used by Israel, what do you imagine happens next?

 

[lessOHmo]

This debate has devolved into the Chicken/Egg question. In this case, the Palestinian were here first.
They were called Philistines in the Bible.
Many of the early books in the OT describe conflict as Israel left Egypt in search of a homeland.
I’m halfway through the Book of Judges and the Tribes are smiting all around them with mixed success, but they spare no men, women or children.

The latest action I have heard is that the IDF is preparing for ground invasion in Lebanon.

What has become of negotiating a two-state solution? Working on a hostage release?
They’re not in Lebanon

another unserious "person"

 

[Lazaran]

no apologies required for civil discourse

And yet we have seen and heard countless Israelis and their supporters wishing the same for Palestinians. I would posit that the two are not mutually exclusive.

After decades of attempted genocide perpetrated against them by their Arab / Muslim "neighbors", I’m not surprised some Israeli’s have strong opinions.

Israel has been active in both defending itself from attacks AND in being the attacker... as we speak they're preparing their ground invasion into Lebanon. The boiled frog analogy depends on the frog remaining entirely passive and unaware. Israel is no frog.

Exactly.

Things cannot be allowed to progress as far as a nuclear option. We can't just sit back and 'hope'... external forces need to apply as much diplomatic force to try and quell the attacks by hezbollah, by hamas AND by the IDF.

“Things cannot be allowed”???

It almost sounds like you can accept the se of 'full capabilities' when you know what that really means; if a nuke gets used by Israel, what do you imagine happens next?

The cycle has repeated itself throughout history.

Sometimes a radical, fanatical group needs to be dealt an ideology shattering blow.

See: The civil war and Sherman’s march to the sea to break the fanatical racist traitors, and the various examples of scorched earth attacks on the fanatical Germans and fanatical Japanese in World War Two, etc.

The radical, fanatical Middle Eastern Arabs / Muslims have never been dealt an ideology shattering blow, and have proceeded with their “boil the frog” strategy, while spreading the influence of radical Islam far and wide - aided, ironically, by leveraging the technology of "the infidels".

The radical, fanatical Arabs / Muslims have pushed Israel to the point / position that the Union found itself in during the civil war, and the allies found themselves in during World War Two, imho: There likely needs to be an ideology shattering event perpetuated by Israel upon the radical, fanatical Arabs / Muslims to get them to “see the light”, imho. (How extreme that ideology shattering event needs to be has yet to be determined.)

And make no mistake: the radical, fanatical Arabs / Muslims have attempted (and will continue to attempt) to perpetrate their own ideology shattering events on the secular west (9/11, 10/7 etc, ) but they are doomed to fail, because freedom isn’t an ideology, it’s a natural state of being. (It’s the same reason the radical, racist, Christo-fascist MAGAts will fail.)





Side question:

Is a quick end via an ideology shattering event worse than being slowly boiled to death (out of existence)???

 

[DukeofPaducah]

Israel is in a spot where I don’t see military action bringing any type of a solution for them.
Even if they were to kill every last Hamas and Hezbollah fighter, that leaves a couple billion
Muslims to take up the banner of retribution.
And if they had temerity to use even a tactical nuke, that would be nothing short of nihilistic.
God help their citizens.
In that event, if I was the US military, I would weigh anchor and steam for the horizon just as fast
as I could. They’ve sealed their own fate.

 

[Lazaran]

Israel is in a spot where I don’t see military action bringing any type of a solution for them.
Even if they were to kill every last Hamas and Hezbollah fighter, that leaves a couple billion
Muslims to take up the banner of retribution.
And if they had temerity to use even a tactical nuke, that would be nothing short of nihilistic.
God help their citizens.
In that event, if I was the US military, I would weigh anchor and steam for the horizon just as fast
as I could. They’ve sealed their own fate.

Hamas (Iran) sealed Gaza’s fate.

Hezbollah (Iran) has possibly sealed Lebanon’s fate.

The Iranians have likely sealed their own fate.

The U.S. (under Kamala Harris’ leadership) will NOT abandon Israel: If Israel took some extreme military action to end Iran’s nuclear weapons program on the eve of Iran attaining a nuclear weapon, or to preemptively blunt a major Iranian attack, then the U.S. would support Israel without reservation.

Also:

The U.S. (under Kamala Harris’ leadership) will NOT abandon Ukraine.

 

[ll74]

another unserious "person"

bB is discussing serious people



Holy fuck

 

[DukeofPaducah]

Regardless of the direction this takes, my prayers are with our servicemen/women in ham’s way.

The latest crawl I have seen is Biden and allies are calling for a 21 day ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah. Netanyahu defiant.

US announces nearly $8B in military aid promised to Ukraine.

Cat 4 Helene due to make landfall near Tallahassee in 2-3 hours.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

I'm condensing stuff I'm seeing on Twitter about Lebanon. I'll post links if I find confirmation in the media. Early reports say the leader of Hezbollah was killed by a large Israeli airstrike in Beirut.

The government of Lebanon has deployed a security cordon around the U.S. embassy to prevent Hezbollah from retaliating against America for its support of Israel during the ongoing war.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-c...-hq-in-beirut-nasrallah-may-have-been-target/

 

[DukeofPaducah]

I think you might not be satisfied until US troops are involved

 

[Yarglenurp]

meh, Israel is going to wipe out Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Then, in 10 years, some rando who’s just a starving kid in refugee camp right now is going to declare himself the new leader of Hezballahmas and start it all over again.

 

[butters]

meh, Israel is going to wipe out Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Then, in 10 years, some rando who’s just a starving kid in refugee camp right now is going to declare himself the new leader of Hezballahmas and start it all over again.

you imagine it might take 10 years? they'll have a new leader named in days, most likely... not to say you're wrong about down the line. hate breeds hate, on both sides.

 

[butters]

Regardless of the direction this takes, my prayers are with our servicemen/women in ham’s way.

The latest crawl I have seen is Biden and allies are calling for a 21 day ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah. Netanyahu defiant.

US announces nearly $8B in military aid promised to Ukraine.

Cat 4 Helene due to make landfall near Tallahassee in 2-3 hours.

Israel's announcing it's secured $8.7B from the U.S

The package includes $3.5 billion for essential wartime procurement, which has already been received and earmarked for critical military purchases, and $5.2 billion designated for air defense systems including the Iron Dome anti-missile system, David's Sling and an advanced laser system.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...secured-87-billion-us-aid-package-2024-09-26/

 

[Yarglenurp]

you imagine it might take 10 years? they'll have a new leader named in days, most likely... not to say you're wrong about down the line. hate breeds hate, on both sides.

Good point.

It’ll probably happen in a few days. And also in 10 years.

 

[Andygorn2]

Sadly, it sounds like Israel doesn't want a 2-state solution.
In the late 40's when UK troops were there to keep the peace, the Israelis killed them (even though at least some of those UK troops would have been the same ones who liberated Europe + stopped the genocide) so they left.
Israel had a chance at peace in the 80's(?) but they killed their leader.
Israel's economy is already on it's arse + not geared up to fight a war on any front (let alone 2 or more).
If the ordinary Israeli people wanted to stop the war and get rid of Netanyahu + his fellow war criminals (at the same stroke) they could shut down the guvmint in a heartbeat by refusing to go to work for a while.

Ireland offered to host talks. Given that they helped solve The Troubles, they have a very good recent track record of getting people to talk + try to get resolutions and find some kind of common grounds, even when people hate each other + have historical enmity over 400-500-ish years.
Israel said no. Everyone else said yes.

Also hate breeds hate.
The innocent people who are/were in Gaza already suffered enough from not having enough food + water + energy.
Then Israel took even that away from them + bulldozed their homes + forced them into even worse conditions + camps...then bombed those camps...
If you take everything away from people who have very little, then it creates a breeding ground for violence, as they have nothing left.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Sadly, it sounds like Israel doesn't want a 2-state solution.
In the late 40's when UK troops were there to keep the peace, the Israelis killed them (even though at least some of those UK troops would have been the same ones who liberated Europe + stopped the genocide) so they left.
Israel had a chance at peace in the 80's(?) but they killed their leader.
Israel's economy is already on it's arse + not geared up to fight a war on any front (let alone 2 or more).
If the ordinary Israeli people wanted to stop the war and get rid of Netanyahu + his fellow war criminals (at the same stroke) they could shut down the guvmint in a heartbeat by refusing to go to work for a while.

Menachem Begin signed the peace treaty with Anwar Sadat in 1979, returning much of the territory Israel captured from Egypt in the 1968 war. Sadat was assassinated for making peace with the Jews, but Begin died of natural causes in 1992 and was buried in Israel with honors.

 

[Andygorn2]

Menachem Begin signed the peace treaty with Anwar Sadat in 1979, returning much of the territory Israel captured from Egypt in the 1968 war. Sadat was assassinated for making peace with the Jews, but Begin died of natural causes in 1992 and was buried in Israel with honors.

apologies, I meant Rabin murdered in 1995

 

[ChloeTzang]

Netanyahu eliminated Nasrallah while addressing the Arab dominated UN. That’s pretty badass.❤❤

While college kids in the West cry for Hezbollah, Syrians and Lebanese handed out sweets and celebrated in the streets at the news that their slaughterers are being destroyed. Israel making new friends in the Middle East every day!

The irony is thick here. Hezbollah and Nasrallah jumped in to support the Palestinian terrorists in Gaza, but today they're realizing they're actually fighting for their own survival. Well, maybe not Nasralla, but whoever is left.

View attachment 2398975

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

apologies, I meant Rabin murdered in 1995

Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a lone extremist after speaking at a large rally of Israelis who supported the Oslo Accords. His death was widely mourned in Israel.

 

[ChloeTzang]

Nice blasts

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Regardless of the direction this takes, my prayers are with our servicemen/women in ham’s way.

The latest crawl I have seen is Biden and allies are calling for a 21 day ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah. Netanyahu defiant.

US announces nearly $8B in military aid promised to Ukraine.

Cat 4 Helene due to make landfall near Tallahassee in 2-3 hours.

One of the Hezbollah leaders killed by Israel last week was Ibrahim Aqil who had a US bounty on his head for the role he played in the murder of 241 Marines in Beirut in 1983.

 

[Andygorn2]

Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a lone extremist after speaking at a large rally of Israelis who supported the Oslo Accords. His death was widely mourned in Israel.

Yes, but Rabin was then followed by Shimon Peres (who should have had his Nobel Prize stripped off him for letting israel reoccupy more land + he was involved in human rights abuses). He was then followed by Netanyahu & we all know how bad that's been. So it has been a slippery slope downwards for peace ever since Rabin. Bottom line = the israelis could get rid of Bibi & his crooks tomorrow...*if* they wanted to...
But why don't they?
This is not having a go at israel overall, am just trying to understand why they put up with increasingly hardliners + why they won't vote them out?

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Yes, but Rabin was then followed by Shimon Peres (who should have had his Nobel Prize stripped off him for letting israel reoccupy more land + he was involved in human rights abuses). He was then followed by Netanyahu & we all know how bad that's been. So it has been a slippery slope downwards for peace ever since Rabin. Bottom line = the israelis could get rid of Bibi & his crooks tomorrow...*if* they wanted to...
But why don't they?
This is not having a go at israel overall, am just trying to understand why they put up with increasingly hardliners + why they won't vote them out?

I suspect the hardliners have support because Israel is surrounded by terrorist organizations who want to destroy it.

Attacks against Israel--like the Intifada, October 7th, and the thousands of missiles fired from Lebanon and Yemen--scare people into voting for someone who promises to keep them safe. Once Israel is no longer under daily attack, we may see more liberal voices in Israeli politics.

 

[Lazaran]

I suspect the hardliners have support because Israel is surrounded by terrorist organizations who want to destroy it.

Attacks against Israel--like the Intifada, October 7th, and the thousands of missiles fired from Lebanon and Yemen--scare people into voting for someone who promises to keep them safe. Once Israel is no longer under daily attack, we may see more liberal voices in Israeli politics.

That ^ is a pretty simple concept to understand, no???