closed Thread

[butters]

Tell us there is no intent to harm.

Western allies condemn Israeli finance minister's suggestion that starving Gaza might be justified​

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/ip3/abcnews.go.com.icoABC|3 hours ago
Israel's Western allies have condemned remarks by its far-right finance minister, who suggested that causing the starvation of Gaza's population of more than 2 million Palestinians "might be just and ...

i can't believe he came out and said this and there hasn't been MAJOR coverage... busy news cycle, i know, but really???!

Israel’s Finance Minister, Bezalel Smotrich, sparked a lot of reactions recently with a bizarre statement that shocked many. Smotrich, apparently not considering the implications of his words, claimed that it would be justified and moral to starve people in Gaza

“No one in the world will allow us to starve 2 million people, even though it might be justified and moral in order to free the hostages.”-Smotrich said.

Immediately following his statements, there were reactions worldwide. Some major global powers decided to respond furiously, condemning Smotrich's remarks as unacceptable and shocking.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...p&cvid=451c2687e72541d6d35db7549a2b7ad7&ei=96

 

[ExxWhyZee]

Civilians starving

https://twitter.com/x/status/1821903833506726371

 

[ExxWhyZee]

Civilians starving

https://twitter.com/x/status/1821812537278550418

 

[butters]

There are certainly individual Americans who are complicit with the corrupt Mexican government and the Mexican cartels, and everything in the United States’ government’s power should be done to end them.

Full stop.





The corrupt Egyptian government is complicit with Hamas, and vice versa. Everything in the United States’ government’s power should be done to end them.

Full stop.

I don't know how convinced I am by your argument, Laz, but if Israeli withdrawal from the Philadelphi Corridor means achieving peace in the region, maybe there can be some solution reached if the border area there could be maintained by a coalition of troops from (say) countries such as America who have a shared interest in stabilising the region?

 

[butters]

where is the displaced population (what remains of it) meant to go to when Israel continues to shrink the 'safe zones' (by as much as 39% now and schools/hospitals/homes/infrastructure are fucked)? Are they meant to go to the 'safe' zones dropped leaflets are telling them to only to be targeted which then get targeted by Israeli bombs?


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/0...ian-zone-that-israel-has-shrunk-several-times

This article is about 11 days old, I think, and the latest stats are 39% reduction of 'safe' zones.

When a civilian population has nowhere safe to go, no medicine, clean drinking water, sanitation and homes, that's an attempt (imo) to wipe them from the face of the earth.

 

[Lazaran]

I don't know how convinced I am by your argument, Laz, but if Israeli withdrawal from the Philadelphi Corridor means achieving peace in the region, maybe there can be some solution reached if the border area there could be maintained by a coalition of troops from (say) countries such as America who have a shared interest in stabilising the region?

Hamas has rejected any post-war security force in Gaza that doesn’t conform to their wishes, and Egypt supports Hamas’ position.



Hamas AND Egypt obviously want to keep the terror / smuggling tunnels open. (There is a significant terrorist presence in Egypt, and the Islamic Egyptian government is faaaaar from friendly with Israel.) There is also the untraceable money gleaned from smuggling to consider.

 

[butters]

Egypt has demolished over 7,000 homes on the Gazan... although there are claims that it's for aid trucks attempting to bypass the blockages of the other routes, the area seems much bigger than this would suggest. I don't see that tunnels run under all of this area (I admit I could be wrong), and Egypt's made no secret of its intentions NOT to take Palestinian refugees. This expanded 'buffer zone' looks more like preparations for future conflict with Israel should Israel cross even further into Gaza.

"The capacity for warehousing in Egypt is something that is discussed at almost every meeting. Given that this hasn't been shared, my assumption is that this is not what the plan is," she added.

We showed the latest satellite images to several security experts to see what they thought its purpose could be.

Andreas Krieg, a senior lecturer in security studies at Kings College, London, said: "You do not need to clear that much ground to stage waiting trucks. To me, it very much looks like Egypt making preparations for the worst-case scenario."

"If you put this in perspective of how big this area this is, 16 km sq of trucks, that is thousands and thousands of trucks. There's never been a situation where you've had thousands of trucks waiting at the border."

Surely this doesn't gibe with Egypt being in cahoots with Hamas?
Reads more like Egypt saying: 'Yeah, Israel's gonna wipe out the Palestinians and we need a broad buffer zone between us and Israel when it comes down to the bombings and shit'

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68375460

 

[Lazaran]

where is the displaced population (what remains of it) meant to go to when Israel continues to shrink the 'safe zones' (by as much as 39% now and schools/hospitals/homes/infrastructure are fucked)? Are they meant to go to the 'safe' zones dropped leaflets are telling them to only to be targeted which then get targeted by Israeli bombs?


https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/0...ian-zone-that-israel-has-shrunk-several-times

This article is about 11 days old, I think, and the latest stats are 39% reduction of 'safe' zones.

When a civilian population has nowhere safe to go, no medicine, clean drinking water, sanitation and homes, that's an attempt (imo) to wipe them from the face of the earth.

The situation is dire, and Hamas is solely responsible for all of it. (If one excludes Iran’s, etc’s involvement.)

10/7 was THE cause of this ongoing crisis, and Hamas’ use of hostages and civilians as human shields, and schools and hospitals as bases of operation, is THE cause of the ever increasing calamity.

Israel is certainly trying to make the situation untenable for Hamas to continue "governing" (oppressing if people wish to believe that) Gaza: It’s about the only viable strategy currently available to Israel, imho.

 

[butters]

Hamas gets no reprieve from me, as I've made very clear multiple times. I 100% want to see them dismantled, disenfranchised, and a thing of the past. I'd also apply that to Netanyahu, Ben Giv'r and that other one whose aims aren't hidden... they see any Palestinian as a potential terrorist, an enemy, and frequently as sub-human.

When annihilating Hamas means, in effect, there will be no Palestinian civilians left able to self-govern and Israel will step in to completely take over what was Palestinian territory, that equates fairly concisely with a concept of genocide/ethnic cleansing, call it what you will... it's the eradication of Palestinians en-masse.

 

[butters]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/23/poli...posal-for-the-philadelphi-corridor/index.html

Netanyahu agrees to reduction in Israeli force numbers; Egypt to communicate new offer to Hamas

Hamas’ response to the new proposal will be critical to determining whether it sends negotiators to an expected negotiating summit in Cairo on Sunday. If they attend, the two sides could hold true negotiations – with each side’s delegation occupying a room, and Egyptian and Qatari mediators going back-and-forth between the two.

The new proposal was the product of an hours-long meeting between Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his negotiating team on Thursday, in which Netanyahu agreed to reduce troop levels. That meeting came a day after Netanyahu spoke with US President Joe Biden, who pushed Netanyahu to show more flexibility on the Philadelphi corridor.

Thankyou, Mr. President.

I don't know how persuasive this new offer will be, but Egypt refused to pass on the last one as a non-starter so maybe there's some small hope. Pressure must be put on Hamas to come to the table. I still don't understand how Palestinians are supposed to self-govern (without Hamas) if ANY Israeli troops are on Palestinian land, though, but perhaps this can be the start of the two-nation outcome.

 

[Lazaran]

Egypt has demolished over 7,000 homes on the Gazan... although there are claims that it's for aid trucks attempting to bypass the blockages of the other routes, the area seems much bigger than this would suggest. I don't see that tunnels run under all of this area (I admit I could be wrong), and Egypt's made no secret of its intentions NOT to take Palestinian refugees. This expanded 'buffer zone' looks more like preparations for future conflict with Israel should Israel cross even further into Gaza.





Surely this doesn't gibe with Egypt being in cahoots with Hamas?
Reads more like Egypt saying: 'Yeah, Israel's gonna wipe out the Palestinians and we need a broad buffer zone between us and Israel when it comes down to the bombings and shit'

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68375460

Even at the risk of sounding exceedingly cynical, I must still submit that the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is a cottage industry for Egypt (American / international foreign aid packages), and is also a way to stick it to Israel for past injuries and insults. (Iranian leaders also benefit from the continuing conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians, because it keeps the Iranian populations focused on something other than their own misery and lack of freedom.)

And, at the risk of sounding even more cynical, I would submit that the conflict is a cottage industry for Israel as well (American aid packages) , even as the conflict helps some extremist in Israel with their agenda to expand Israel’s "official" borders.

The conflict is undoubtedly a cottage industry for Hamas (Foreign aid packages from multiple sources).

There is a whole lot of self-serving transactional subterfuge involved in this conflict among all parties involved, and there are the accompanying cost-benefit analyses.

Egypt is hedging their bets with their apparently incongruous actions, imho, but they would certainly prefer that Hamas (or an entity like it) remain in power in Gaza, so Egypt could continue to grift off of the never-ending conflict by supplying Hamas through clandestine smuggling tunnels. (The cottage industry I mentioned earlier.) Hence, the efforts by Egypt to have Israel cede control of the Philidelphi corridor.



Side note:

The U.S. obviously has an interest in maintaining a secular democracy (Israel) in the region, and thus, is willing to stomach the blatant leveraging for financial aid and borderline extrajudicial shit from Israel. (More cynicism, I know.)

 

[butters]

Israel’s military and Palestinian militant group Hamas have agreed to pause fighting in three separate, zoned three-day instances in the Gaza Strip to allow about 640,000 children to get vaccinated against polio, according to an official with the World Health Organization (WHO).

Vaccinations are scheduled to begin Sunday, said Rik Peeperkorn, WHO’s senior official for Palestinian territories. Both sides have agreed to stop fighting between 6 a.m. and 3 p.m. (0300-1200 GMT), Bloomberg reported.

The vaccination campaign is expected to pause fighting for three days in central Gaza and then southern Gaza before making its way to northern Gaza.

The agreement allowed for a fourth day of paused fighting in each zone if needed, Peeperkorn said.

The WHO confirmed on Aug. 23 that the type 2 polio virus had paralyzed at least one baby, marking the first such case in the territory in 25 years. The U.N. Security Council is scheduled to meet on Thursday to discuss the humanitarian situation in Gaza.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/ot...p&cvid=f491993cc9584794ab1005bfa2ea3aa0&ei=63

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/ot...p&cvid=f491993cc9584794ab1005bfa2ea3aa0&ei=63

I'm glad that the Arab children are being vaccinated. I hope that Kfir and Ariel Bibas--the two young Israeli hostages--are vaccinated as well.

 

[butters]

I'm glad that the Arab children are being vaccinated. I hope that Kfir and Ariel Bibas--the two young Israeli hostages--are vaccinated as well.

so do I, if they've not already been back in Israel. No child or civilian should be suffering because of hamas and the IDF... and because of them both, they are and have been for a long time

 

[Lazaran]

so do I, if they've not already been back in Israel. No child or civilian should be suffering because of hamas and the IDF... and because of them both, they are and have been for a long time

Interestingly, from what I’ve been able to ascertain, the children of Gaza are / were quite well vaccinated thanks to UNWRA and the WHO, etc, before the Hamas terrorists’ 10/7 massacre of innocent Israeli children. The fact that only one case of Polio has been reported is pretty strong evidence that the children of Gaza weren’t neglected on the vaccine front before or after the Hamas terrorists’ 10/7 massacre.of innocent Israeli children. (Of course, that changes with every passing day and every new birth, but one would hope that Hamas and the Gazan people would be consistently prioritizing vaccination of their children even in a time of war.)



Related:

I’m wondering if this latest massive vaccination effort (which seems largely unnecessary) and the associated pauses in fighting aren’t part of a larger effort to secure a cease fire deal???



I hope it is.

 

[butters]

let us hope so, but it's worth noting that the strain that affected the child is a mutated strain so potentially poses a far greater threat to a weakened, starving populace. Vaccinating 90% of the children under the age of 10 will help prevent the spread of polio, even if it does nothing for the other concerns. SO that's why I hope you are right and it's some kind of first step towards a ceasefire.

The urgency for vaccinations follows the case of 10-month-old Abdel-Rahman Abu El-Jedian, who was partially paralyzed by a mutated strain of the virus found in the waste of vaccinated individuals. According to the WHO, the baby boy is the first confirmed case of polio inside Gaza in 25 years.

https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-fighting-limited-pauses-polio-vaccinations-who-1946285

if a mutated strain takes a hold in the Gazan population, it won't stop there...

 

[Lazaran]

let us hope so, but it's worth noting that the strain that affected the child is a mutated strain so potentially poses a far greater threat to a weakened, starving populace. Vaccinating 90% of the children under the age of 10 will help prevent the spread of polio, even if it does nothing for the other concerns. SO that's why I hope you are right and it's some kind of first step towards a ceasefire.


https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-fighting-limited-pauses-polio-vaccinations-who-1946285

if a mutated strain takes a hold in the Gazan population, it won't stop there...

There is definitely a risk of things spiraling, but the only case so far was in a baby that wasn’t old enough to be vaccinated, which, while terrible, does suggest that a major outbreak of the disease isn’t imminent.

Also:

From what I understand, there is only one vaccine available, and it is the best protection in the WHO’s arsenal against all strains of the disease. That vaccine was the one that would have been administered to Gazan children pre - 10/7 (and after), and it is the same one being administered now.



Side note:

If this is simply a massive preemptive booster program due to the deteriorating conditions in Gaza, then a ceasefire breakthrough may not be imminent.



Still - Situation Normal All Fucked Up / Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition, but there could be a silver lining if a ceasefire somehow emerged from this latest crisis.

Fingers crossed.

 

[butters]

The IDF has recovered Hamas documents from the Gaza Strip that it says prove the terror group has been secretly falsifying the results of polls conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR).

Still, the IDF says that the documents do not prove that PCPSR was cooperating with Hamas, but rather that the terror group was conducting clandestine actions to fraudulently influence the results of the polls.

PCPSR is run by prominent Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki.

According to the IDF, the documents it recovered in Gaza “prove an extensive effort by the terror organization to falsify the results of [the PCPSR] polls, to create a false representation of the Gazan public’s support for the terror organization, especially after the massacre on October 7.”

An alleged Hamas document released by the IDF shows the results of a PCPSR poll from March 2024, with both the original data and the falsified numbers. The published poll showed 71% of Palestinians supporting the October 7 Hamas attack, while the IDF says the actual data showed support from just 30.7% of respondents.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...p&cvid=e367b2283ebe4dda9fd9f0be9960e03e&ei=60

I wouldn't be at all surprised; those unrevised numbers look (at least on the surface) more representative.

Nor would I be surprised that Israel's actions since then have only grown anti-Israeli sentiment in the remaining population, even if that doesn't translate as a support for hamas.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

After almost a year of captivity, six hostages were finally found in a tunnel in Rafah. They’d recently been murdered.

Taking hostages and executing them is a crime. The international community is silent. Shameful.

 

[Lazaran]

After almost a year of captivity, six hostages were just finally found in a tunnel in Rafah. They’d recently been murdered.

Taking hostages and executing them is a crime. The international community is silent. Shameful.

I actually commented on the possibility of something like this happening immediately after the IDF’s spectacularly successful (and destructive) hostage rescue operation.

I expect that the hostages’ jailers now have orders to preemptively execute their hostages if the IDF starts getting too close and it looks like they won’t be able to move the hostages without being detected.



Side note:

Pretty soon, Hamas isn’t going to have any hostages left to bargain with, and Israel isn’t going to have any reason to negotiate. Then what???

 

[dmallord]

I actually commented on the possibility of something like this happening immediately after the IDF’s spectacularly successful (and destructive) hostage rescue operation.

I expect that the hostages’ jailers now have orders to preemptively execute their hostages if the IDF starts getting too close and it looks like they won’t be able to move the hostages without being detected.



Side note:

Pretty soon, Hamas isn’t going to have any hostages left to bargain with, and Israel isn’t going to have any reason to negotiate. Then what???

Isn't the current count around one hundred? That's a lot to consider. The current protests to get the hostages back is mounting. Will it be enough to sway a major capitulation to the Hamas militants that they would halt and desist their attacks? Would Isreal do the same? Who becomes the monitor in this scenario?

If the hostage count goes to zero, then there would be no reason for Israel to hold back from finishing the eradication of Hamas. That would be the logical conclusion to your question of 'then what.'

 

[SmokingFap]

I actually commented on the possibility of something like this happening immediately after the IDF’s spectacularly successful (and destructive) hostage rescue operation.

I expect that the hostages’ jailers now have orders to preemptively execute their hostages if the IDF starts getting too close and it looks like they won’t be able to move the hostages without being detected.



Side note:

Pretty soon, Hamas isn’t going to have any hostages left to bargain with, and Israel isn’t going to have any reason to negotiate. Then what???

The extermination of every Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank. The original and primary goal of Netanyahu.

 

[butters]

The pressure grows on netanyahu from within Israel, by Israelis, to get the cease-fire deal done. They know he is as culpable for the deaths of their loved ones as hamas. The hope (suspected hope) he might see a strengthening of support for himself, politically, with the deaths of more hostages hasn't come into existence... the people are mad at him not having brought their loved ones home before now.

Anti-government demonstrators are gathering in the Israeli city of Tel Aviv for a second day of protests demanding that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu conclude a cease-fire and hostage-release deal with Hamas.

Street protests are expected to resume across the country on Monday, coinciding with a general strike called by Israel’s largest trade union -- Histadrut, or the General Organization of Workers in Israel, which has hundreds of thousands of members -- which has caused disruptions to services in some areas of the country.

Opposition leader Yair Lapid said in a statement while expressing his support for the general strike: “They were alive. Netanyahu and the death cabinet decided not to save them. There are still live hostages there, a deal can still be made. Netanyahu is not doing it for political reasons.”

this is obvious to most and it appears is if netanyahu's political days are numbered. We can hope.

Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, meanwhile, posted on X linking the deaths of the six captives to Netanyahu’s reported decision last week to retain military control of the Philadelphi Corridor -- the strip of land running along the Gaza-Egypt border -- despite Hamas objections. Gallant called for the security cabinet to immediately reverse the decision in order to save the remaining hostages.

 

[mrno]

As this is written there are many large demonstrations in Israel for a truce.
Where are the demonstrations in Gaza? Don't they want a truce? They would rather go hungry and die than a have a truce. So be it.

 

[butters]

As this is written there are many large demonstrations in Israel for a truce.
Where are the demonstrations in Gaza? Don't they want a truce? They would rather go hungry and die than a have a truce. So be it.

or, just perhaps, they are too busy trying to relocate as ordered into "safe" areas (there are none), find shelter, clean water, food, medicine, getting their children innoculated against polio and tending the sick/wounded/dying... that's those who are able to walk.

your naive notion that currently being an Israeli in Israel and a Palestinian in Gaza might be on equitable levels shows you have no interest or no understanding of the realities involved. And THAT speaks to privilege.