closed Thread

[Lazaran]

perhaps you are right, L...

personally, I don't believe Israel has any business there.
Also interesting, the aid the USA is giving to Egypt to ensure it can protect itself.

The U.S. gives aid to Egypt as a bribe for "peace" and to maintain the appearance of neutrality.

Diplomacy comes in many forms.

 

[butters]

The U.S. gives aid to Egypt as a bribe for "peace" and to maintain the appearance of neutrality.

Diplomacy comes in many forms.

indeed... and perhaps a diplomatic warning to Israel not to encroach into territory right on the Egyptian border as if they have the right to be there.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

perhaps you are right, L...

personally, I don't believe Israel has any business there.
Also interesting, the aid the USA is giving to Egypt to ensure it can protect itself.

The dead bodies of the six recently-executed hostages were found in a tunnel right next to Gaza's border with Israel. That's why Israel has business there.

Until all the hostages are rescued from captivity, Israel has business there.

 

[Lazaran]

indeed... and perhaps a diplomatic warning to Israel not to encroach into territory right on the Egyptian border as if they have the right to be there.

Unfortunately, Hamas gave Israel “the right to be there” by conducting their 10/7 rape, torture, murder and kidnapping operation - and Egypt facilitated the Hamas 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, so…



Side note:

Israel also has a right to deal with Iran, Lebanon, etc, for their roles in the 10/7 rape, murder, torture, and kidnapping operation, etc, in ways that may not be palatable to those who have the privilege of judging them from the relative safety of the U.S., etc.

There is nothing fair about the entire situation; but you know the old saying about love and war???…well this is war. (A war that Hamas wanted.)

 

[butters]

i think we need to agree to disagree on some points, L

 

[rgraham666]

Why are we debating this? Few people on every side of this conflict want peace.

They want victory. which is something else altogether.

 

[Lazaran]

Why are we debating this? Few people on every side of this conflict want peace.

They want victory. which is something else altogether.

I want peace - with Hamas out of power, Netanyahu and the right wing cabal in Israel out of power, the radical Muslims in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen, etc, out of power, and a legitimate two state solution that involves a demilitarized Palestine.

 

[rgraham666]

I want peace - with Hamas out of power, Netanyahu and the right wing cabal in Israel out of power, the radical Muslims in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen, etc, out of power, and a legitimate two state solution that involves a demilitarized Palestine.

Gonna have to demilitarize every nation in the world in that case. Because most will use a helpless Palestine as a punching bag, or an excuse to go after Israel.

There will not be peace in the Middle East in our lifetimes, nor our great grandchilren's lifetimes. I wish it was otherwise but the fear, anger, and hate are pretty much genetic now.

 

[Lazaran]

Gonna have to demilitarize every nation in the world in that case. Because most will use a helpless Palestine as a punching bag, or an excuse to go after Israel.

There will not be peace in the Middle East in our lifetimes, nor our great grandchilren's lifetimes. I wish it was otherwise but the fear, anger, and hate are pretty much genetic now.

Nah: Make a two state solution involving Palestine contingent upon demilitarization, and provide a mechanism for dissolving the newly formed Palestinian state and conferring full control of Gaza and the West Bank to Israel if the newly formed Palestinian state has been found to have violated the demilitarization provision.

The Israel-Palestine issue is unique, and a unique solution is required.

If Israel is expected to make concessions like abandoning established settlements in the West Bank, etc, and exposing themselves to another potential attack from ENEMIES sharing borders on ALL flanks , then some significant concessions and guarantees are to be expected from the Palestinians, etc; full stop.

JMTCW

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Gonna have to demilitarize every nation in the world in that case. Because most will use a helpless Palestine as a punching bag, or an excuse to go after Israel.

There will not be peace in the Middle East in our lifetimes, nor our great grandchilren's lifetimes. I wish it was otherwise but the fear, anger, and hate are pretty much genetic now.

Palestine has lots of allies in the region, and Israel leaves them alone until they attack Israeli citizens. The Palestinians could have had peace at any time during the last 70 years if they gave up their fever dream of exterminating the Jews and eradicating the state of Israel.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Why are we debating this? Few people on every side of this conflict want peace.

They want victory. which is something else altogether.

Israel wants peace. Their Arab neighbors want to destroy them.

 

[Lazaran]

Israel wants peace. Their Arab neighbors want to destroy them.

I honestly believe many people see Israel as the "big bully" in the neighborhood, because they only focus on Israel in relation to Gaza and the West Bank, while ignoring the reality of the view from 30,000 feet.

Israel is ACTUALLY the tiny kid in the neighborhood who has a big brother (the U..S.) who can’t be expected to (and isn’t in a position to) fight all its fights for them or with them. And the U.S. also can’t protect Israel at all times. 10/7 was proof of that.

If people would appreciate the reality of the position Israel is ACTUALLY in, then maybe they would have a different opinion on reasonable security assurances that must be secured and validated before moving forward from a post 10/7 / Gaza war world to a peaceful two state solution.

 

[rgraham666]

Nah: Make a two state solution involving Palestine contingent upon demilitarization, and provide a mechanism for dissolving the newly formed Palestinian state and conferring full control of Gaza and the West Bank to Israel if the newly formed Palestinian state has been found to have violated the demilitarization provision.

So, let's see how a dishonest actor could play with your requirements.

The most obvious answer is the 'He pulled a gun' excuse. An Israeli defense outpost announces they are taking fire. They send a unit to investigate and 'discover a cache of weapons'. Obviously Palestine has voided the agreement and Israel takes over. All it would take is another Netanyahu government, or perhaps even the current one.

What stops the settlers from 'resettling' the West Bank? Will that be counted as Israel dishonouring the agreement? Would Israel do anything to stop this? Would they help? It would be hard for them not to help if they need 'safe borders'.

What protects demilitarized Palestine from its other neighbours? I'm sure Egypt would love Gaza. I doubt Syria is in any shape to take the West Bank but a demilitarized Palestine might be too tempting a target.

A demilitarized Gaza would be nothing but a target and do little to stop the suffering of both sides.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I want peace - with Hamas out of power, Netanyahu and the right wing cabal in Israel out of power, the radical Muslims in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen, etc, out of power, and a legitimate two state solution that involves a demilitarized Palestine.

Netanyahu's coalition will collapse right after a Gaza ceasefire occurs. It's in Netanyahu's interest to maintain an active conflict as long as possible to retain power.

A "demilitarized Palestine" is not going to happen. Palestine should have every right to secure their existence as much as Israel does. Anything less than that is a double standard.

 

[Lazaran]

So, let's see how a dishonest actor could play with your requirements.

The most obvious answer is the 'He pulled a gun' excuse. An Israeli defense outpost announces they are taking fire. They send a unit to investigate and 'discover a cache of weapons'. Obviously Palestine has voided the agreement and Israel takes over. All it would take is another Netanyahu government, or perhaps even the current one.

Um, no… I was talking about if the Palestinians reconstituted a military with rockets and missiles and trained battalions. An isolated incident would be subject to local Palestinian law enforcement with international assistance to determine the particulars of the event and assist with the investigation. Israel would have a chance to offer evidence and testimony.

What stops the settlers from 'resettling' the West Bank? Will that be counted as Israel dishonouring the agreement? Would Israel do anything to stop this? Would they help? It would be hard for them not to help if they need 'safe borders'.

You must have misread my earlier post. A demilitarized Palestinian state would still be a state. There would obviously have to be an international defense agreement arranged for a demilitarized Palestine, with security assurance from the U.S., etc - and Israel itself would ALSO be responsible (and held responsible) for policing Israelis encroaching on Palestinian soil, etc.

What protects demilitarized Palestine from its other neighbours? I'm sure Egypt would love Gaza. I doubt Syria is in any shape to take the West Bank but a demilitarized Palestine might be too tempting a target.

See above.

A demilitarized Gaza would be nothing but a target and do little to stop the suffering of both sides.

A U.S., etc, security / defense agreement like the one we had with Ukraine would be enough of a deterrent for anyone not named Putin.

And if Palestine was successfully demilitarized, it would be in Israel’s interest to assist in repelling any encroachment on Palestinian sovereignty.

It’s a workable solution, imho. (Though nothing is perfect or infallible.)

 

[Lazaran]

Netanyahu's coalition will collapse right after a Gaza ceasefire occurs. It's in Netanyahu's interest to maintain an active conflict as long as possible to retain power.

Then it would be in the Palestinians’ best interest to agree to Israel’s demands that they be allowed to control the Philadelphi corridor, etc:

Secure the ceasefire; Netanyahu and the right wing Cabal get ousted; an Israeli government that is open to a two state solution that includes a demilitarized Palestine comes to power; negotiations ensue; an agreement is reached that includes defense assurances for Palestine, and voila. (Unless of course the Palestinians don’t really want a two state solution either…)

A "demilitarized Palestine" is not going to happen. Palestine should have every right to secure their existence as much as Israel does. Anything less than that is a double standard.

Well, yeah, there would be a double standard: The single standard couldn’t be trusted - as history has so painfully taught us.



Do people want the war to end and a two state solution to go forward or not???

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

So, let's see how a dishonest actor could play with your requirements.

The most obvious answer is the 'He pulled a gun' excuse. An Israeli defense outpost announces they are taking fire. They send a unit to investigate and 'discover a cache of weapons'. Obviously Palestine has voided the agreement and Israel takes over. All it would take is another Netanyahu government, or perhaps even the current one.

What stops the settlers from 'resettling' the West Bank? Will that be counted as Israel dishonouring the agreement? Would Israel do anything to stop this? Would they help? It would be hard for them not to help if they need 'safe borders'.

What protects demilitarized Palestine from its other neighbours? I'm sure Egypt would love Gaza. I doubt Syria is in any shape to take the West Bank but a demilitarized Palestine might be too tempting a target.

A demilitarized Gaza would be nothing but a target and do little to stop the suffering of both sides.

Gaza was part of Egypt until 1968 when they amassed troops there to attack Israel. Israel struck first and captured Gaza and the Sinai. A demilitarized Gaza is essential for Israel’s security. The small Jewish state is surrounded by larger Arab states who want to eradicate it. Peace will only be achieved in the Middle East when the Arabs stop trying to kill the Jews.

 

[rgraham666]

Gaza was part of Egypt until 1968 when they amassed troops there to attack Israel. Israel struck first and captured Gaza and the Sinai. A demilitarized Gaza is essential for Israel’s security. The small Jewish state is surrounded by larger Arab states who want to eradicate it. Peace will only be achieved in the Middle East when the Arabs stop trying to kill the Jews.

What stops Jews from killing Arabs?

Also, you didn't deal with any of my other points.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

What stops Jews from killing Arabs?

Also, you didn't deal with any of my other points.

Israel has a long history of leaving Gaza alone. They're only fighting there now because the October 7th and the remaining hostages being held.

 

[rgraham666]

Then it would be in the Palestinians’ best interest to agree to Israel’s demands that they be allowed to control the Philadelphi corridor, etc:

Secure the ceasefire; Netanyahu and the right wing Cabal get ousted; an Israeli government that is open to a two state solution that includes a demilitarized Palestine comes to power; negotiations ensue; an agreement is reached that includes defense assurances for Palestine, and voila. (Unless of course the Palestinians don’t really want a two state solution either…)





Well, yeah, there would be a double standard: The single standard couldn’t be trusted - as history has so painfully taught us.



Do people want the war to end and a two state solution to go forward or not???

First, please don't treat Palestinians as a single entity. There are many who would like a two state solution. They, like many Israelis and a lot of other people just want the killing to stop.

Unfortunately there are many who don't want the killing to stop until all their enemies are dead.

I want a two state solution. But I can't figure a way to make it happen in the opposition af those in the latter category.

Remember what happened to the last people who tried to pursued peace in that area of the world? Rabin. Sadat.

Israel has a long history of leaving Gaza alone. They're only fighting there now because the October 7th and the remaining hostages being held.

What about the settlers in the West Bank?

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

First, please don't treat Palestinians as a single entity. There are many who would like a two state solution. They, like many Israelis and a lot of other people just want the killing to stop.

Unfortunately there are many who don't want the killing to stop until all their enemies are dead.

I want a two state solution. But I can't figure a way to make it happen in the opposition af those in the latter category.

Remember what happened to the last people who tried to pursued peace in that area of the world? Rabin. Sadat.



What about the settlers in the West Bank?

It's impossible to negotiate a joint settlement for the West Bank and Gaza while Hamas in Gaza is still holding over 100 Israelis hostage.

Similarly, peace is also difficult while Hezbollah in Lebanon is firing rockets into Israel from the north. The most direct path to peace is for the world community to put pressure on Israel's Arab neighbors to release the hostages and stop attacking Israel.

 

[deckardB26354]

It's impossible to negotiate a joint settlement for the West Bank and Gaza while Hamas in Gaza is still holding over 100 Israelis hostage.

Similarly, peace is also difficult while Hezbollah in Lebanon is firing rockets into Israel from the north. The most direct path to peace is for the world community to put pressure on Israel's Arab neighbors to release the hostages and stop attacking Israel.

Sorry to disagree with you here, but this is not the answer.

Bibi and his hard right government want to obliterate Hamas. While I agree with the “idea” of ridding the world of Hamas, it will never happen. Wanna know why? Because the West Bank and Gaza are breeding grounds for Hamas—because every time a child is murdered, their parents want revenge and every time a parent is murdered, a child wants revenge. They might have hated Hamas, but now Hamas becomes the way to get revenge. Every time that a Jewish settler takes control, by force, of the rightfully owned Palestinian land and evicts them—or even kills them—Hamas gets new recruits.

It pains me to watch reports as journalists stand in the city of Tel Aviv—the modern metropolis where everyone has state-sponsored healthcare and everyone has a place to live—and talk about Hamas attacking this place or that, when Gaza looks like the surface of the moon. Palestinians living in squalor and disease—but there’s no genocide happening here. Yeah, right.

“Gawd” didn’t give the Jews the land that they’re occupying now. Just like the British weren’t given the land that the thirteen colonies sat upon. You don’t see the indigenous tribes of North America saying they want the land back and start moving into people’s homes claiming that it’s now theirs. Yet it’s completely acceptable for this to happen to Palestinians and anyone that says different is labeled anti-Semitic.

Maybe the solution, that will never happen, would be for a King Solomon-like move to cut the country in half. Give the northern section to Israel, the southern part to Palestine.

This entire conflict is a struggle over real estate. It’s not about religion, although that feeds the fires of hate to keep this conflict going.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Sorry to disagree with you here, but this is not the answer.

Bibi and his hard right government want to obliterate Hamas. While I agree with the “idea” of ridding the world of Hamas, it will never happen. Wanna know why? Because the West Bank and Gaza are breeding grounds for Hamas—because every time a child is murdered, their parents want revenge and every time a parent is murdered, a child wants revenge. They might have hated Hamas, but now Hamas becomes the way to get revenge. Every time that a Jewish settler takes control, by force, of the rightfully owned Palestinian land and evicts them—or even kills them—Hamas gets new recruits.

It pains me to watch reports as journalists stand in the city of Tel Aviv—the modern metropolis where everyone has state-sponsored healthcare and everyone has a place to live—and talk about Hamas attacking this place or that, when Gaza looks like the surface of the moon. Palestinians living in squalor and disease—but there’s no genocide happening here. Yeah, right.

“Gawd” didn’t give the Jews the land that they’re occupying now. Just like the British weren’t given the land that the thirteen colonies sat upon. You don’t see the indigenous tribes of North America saying they want the land back and start moving into people’s homes claiming that it’s now theirs. Yet it’s completely acceptable for this to happen to Palestinians and anyone that says different is labeled anti-Semitic.

Maybe the solution, that will never happen, would be for a King Solomon-like move to cut the country in half. Give the northern section to Israel, the southern part to Palestine.

This entire conflict is a struggle over real estate. It’s not about religion, although that feeds the fires of hate to keep this conflict going.

There's no genocide happening in Gaza.

The Jews are indigenous to Palestine. They have been living there continuously for thousands of years, sometimes as an independent nation, sometimes under thumb of foreign invaders like the Arabs, Turks and British.

In 1948, the Jews in Mandatory Palestine convinced the British to partition the territory into Jewish and Arab sectors. This was similar to other anticolonial efforts in the British Empire, like the partition of the British Raj into India and Pakistan in 1947.

The Jewish part of Palestine became the state of Israel. The Arabs were unhappy with an equal split. They wanted all of Mandatory Palestine to be under Arab control, so they immediately attacked the newborn state of Israel, attempting to snuff it out and put the disobedient Jews back in their place. Much to their surprise, the Jews fought back and defended their borders.

in the 70+ years since the Arabs have repeatedly tried to exterminate the Jews, but have always been pushed back. During the course of these wars, Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. These territories were originally part of Jordan and Egypt, but Israel seized them to create buffer zones to defend herself.

The entire conflict is about the Arabs being unwilling to tolerate Jewish self-rule.

 

[deckardB26354]

There's no genocide happening in Gaza.

The Jews are indigenous to Palestine. They have been living there continuously for thousands of years, sometimes as an independent nation, sometimes under thumb of foreign invaders like the Arabs, Turks and British.

In 1948, the Jews in Mandatory Palestine convinced the British to partition the territory into Jewish and Arab sectors. This was similar to other anticolonial efforts in the British Empire, like the partition of the British Raj into India and Pakistan in 1947.

The Jewish part of Palestine became the state of Israel. The Arabs were unhappy with an equal split. They wanted all of Mandatory Palestine to be under Arab control, so they immediately attacked the newborn state of Israel, attempting to snuff it out and put the disobedient Jews back in their place. Much to their surprise, the Jews fought back and defended their borders.

in the 70+ years since the Arabs have repeatedly tried to exterminate the Jews, but have always been pushed back. During the course of these wars, Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. These territories were originally part of Jordan and Egypt, but Israel seized them to create buffer zones to defend herself.

The entire conflict is about the Arabs being unwilling to tolerate Jewish self-rule.

No need to ___splain it for me, I know the history.

Yes, there is no genocide happening in Gaza. Just like there was no genocide happening in North America. The Trail of Tears, the Sand Creek Massacre, et. al weren’t actual acts of genocide—just a thinning out of the herd. Just like what’s happening in Gaza. They’re not being forced into gas chambers, but in its own sick way that was more “humane” than letting people starve to death, die from lack of medical facilities (because the boogeyman Hamas was hiding there, so BOOM), and using women and children as sniper practice.

Also, you’re telling me that the property lines laid out by treaty haven’t been breached? That Jewish settlers are forcing people out of their homes claiming it’s theirs “just cuz”? Sorry, but I’m not buying your explanation of “Arabs being unwilling to tolerate Jewish self-rule”—whatever the hell that means.

 

[Lazaran]

No need to ___splain it for me, I know the history.

Yes, there is no genocide happening in Gaza. Just like there was no genocide happening in North America. The Trail of Tears, the Sand Creek Massacre, et. al weren’t actual acts of genocide—just a thinning out of the herd. Just like what’s happening in Gaza. They’re not being forced into gas chambers, but in its own sick way that was more “humane” than letting people starve to death, die from lack of medical facilities (because the boogeyman Hamas was hiding there, so BOOM), and using women and children as sniper practice.

Also, you’re telling me that the property lines laid out by treaty haven’t been breached? That Jewish settlers are forcing people out of their homes claiming it’s theirs “just cuz”? Sorry, but I’m not buying your explanation of “Arabs being unwilling to tolerate Jewish self-rule”—whatever the hell that means.

A couple things:

1) 10/7

2) Hostages

3) Human shields.

4) Arab / Islamist attacks.

5) Previous Israeli conciliations.

History dictates that certain conditions need to be met to end this war and to secure a two state solution.

I’ve laid out my ideas in previous posts; what are your ideas???