closed Thread

[butters]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=ea15e6edeb694326920e3f20e66ad520&ei=44

MADRID/OSLO (Reuters) - The foreign ministers of several Muslim and European countries will meet in Madrid on Friday to discuss how to implement a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Spanish and Norwegian governments said.

Spanish Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Albares will host the meeting, which will be attended by his European counterparts, European Union foreign policy chief Josep Borrell, and members of the Arab-Islamic Contact Group for Gaza.

On May 28, Spain, Norway and Ireland formally recognised a unified Palestinian state ruled by the Palestinian Authority comprising the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, with East Jerusalem as its capital. With them, 146 of the 193 member states of the United Nations now recognise Palestinian statehood.

 

[butters]

Philadelphi Corridor: of the 203 separate but interconnected tunnels found (that's a lot!) and destroyed, 9 connected to Egypt... none of these were found to be active or functioning, having previously been blocked up or destroyed by Egyptian forces or hamas

Cohen, who commands the IDF’s 162nd Division, says that his combat engineering forces located 203 separate, but interconnected, tunnels in the Philadelphi Corridor, stretching from the Egypt border to about 300 meters away on the outskirts of the city of Rafah.

“Most of them we have destroyed,” the general said. “We are operating at the other sites to investigate them, and when we will finish investigating, they will be destroyed.”

Out of the 203 tunnels, Cohen confirms that the IDF had so far located a total of nine that had crossed into Egypt, but every single one had been blocked up previously, either by Egyptian authorities or Hamas themselves.

“There are a total of nine underground sites [tunnels] that cross into Egyptian territory, but they have collapsed, they are not usable, they are not active,” he says.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=b4c3ce1d73e24776cc0e5a04d54e9a35&ei=19

 

[Lazaran]

Philadelphi Corridor: of the 203 separate but interconnected tunnels found (that's a lot!) and destroyed, 9 connected to Egypt... none of these were found to be active or functioning, having previously been blocked up or destroyed by Egyptian forces or hamas





https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=b4c3ce1d73e24776cc0e5a04d54e9a35&ei=19

No offense, butters, but once the Egyptians and Hamas knew that Israel was going to seize the Philadelphi corridor, it would have behooved the Egyptians and Hamas to block up those tunnels to avoid logical conclusion being drawn about how and from where Hamas was being supplied with weapons, explosives, missile making components, etc.

Nowhere in that article does it mention when those tunnels were blocked up by the Egyptians or Hamas - but the very fact that those tunnels exist / existed at all is damning evidence of the Egyptians and Hamas being co-conspirators in smuggling and terrorism, imho.

And while it’s a good thing that those tunnels are currently blocked, those tunnels can be unblocked if the Egyptians and Hamas are given the opportunity.

The Israelis would be fools to cede control of the Philadelphi corridor back to their enemies after 10/7, imho.

 

[butters]

perhaps you are right, L...

personally, I don't believe Israel has any business there.
Also interesting, the aid the USA is giving to Egypt to ensure it can protect itself.

 

[butters]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=d2f8df7a0b854069f9b6f3a7741f5d27&ei=48

Israeli forces detained and attacked a UN convoy on its way to support the polio vaccination campaign in northern Gaza this week, using tanks and bulldozers to terrorize the UN staff and firing their guns despite supposed agreements by Israeli forces that the polio campaign be safe from violence.

According to Philippe Lazzarini, the head of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), the UN had coordinated the convoy’s travel in detail with Israeli forces. Despite this, the Israeli military held the convoy for over eight hours at a checkpoint as it was on its way to northern Gaza. None of the 12 UN staff involved were killed during the incident, but they were forced to return to base and were unable to complete their mission.

According to UN secretary-general spokesperson Stéphane Dujarric, Israeli soldiers pointed guns at staff while saying they wanted to detain two of them for questioning. Then, firing off their guns, they surrounded the convoy with tanks and bulldozers.

They then rammed the UN vehicles from the front and back, “compacting the convoy with UN staff inside,” Dujarric said. A bulldozer dropped debris on the lead vehicle in the convoy.

“This significant incident is the latest in a series of violations against UN staff including shootings at convoys and arrests by the Israeli Armed Forces at checkpoints despite prior notification. UN Staff must be allowed to undertake their duties in safety and be protected at all times in accordance with international humanitarian law. Gaza is no different,” said Lazzarini.

 

[butters]

Israel deliberately targeting spots very close to sites set up to administer the polio vaccines... sitting duck targets designated as 'deconfliction zones'

Clearly some giving the orders here either have a total disregard for the orders given to them, or it's a case of "Fuck Palestinians, we'll do what we want and know team Bibi won't shed any tears for them".
Just like the IDF's assurances that 'everything is being done to ensure the safety of Palestinian civilians during this time', and 'safe zones' are safe, the claims that they are sticking to 'deconfliction' here falls on jaded, disbelieving ears.

On Tuesday, Israel struck a food stand in northern Gaza located between three deconflicted polio vaccination centers, killing five Palestinians, according to Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor. The food stall was as little as tens of meters away from vaccination centers, the group said.

“We have also documented airstrikes in Southern Gaza that similarly undermine the crucial polio vaccination campaign,” Euro-Med Monitor said. “Additionally, Israel’s stopping and interrogating a UN mission yesterday indicate a clear tendency for the IDF to obstruct humanitarian and relief efforts.”

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...1&cvid=d2f8df7a0b854069f9b6f3a7741f5d27&ei=48

 

[Lazaran]

perhaps you are right, L...

personally, I don't believe Israel has any business there.
Also interesting, the aid the USA is giving to Egypt to ensure it can protect itself.

The U.S. gives aid to Egypt as a bribe for "peace" and to maintain the appearance of neutrality.

Diplomacy comes in many forms.

 

[butters]

The U.S. gives aid to Egypt as a bribe for "peace" and to maintain the appearance of neutrality.

Diplomacy comes in many forms.

indeed... and perhaps a diplomatic warning to Israel not to encroach into territory right on the Egyptian border as if they have the right to be there.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

perhaps you are right, L...

personally, I don't believe Israel has any business there.
Also interesting, the aid the USA is giving to Egypt to ensure it can protect itself.

The dead bodies of the six recently-executed hostages were found in a tunnel right next to Gaza's border with Israel. That's why Israel has business there.

Until all the hostages are rescued from captivity, Israel has business there.

 

[Lazaran]

indeed... and perhaps a diplomatic warning to Israel not to encroach into territory right on the Egyptian border as if they have the right to be there.

Unfortunately, Hamas gave Israel “the right to be there” by conducting their 10/7 rape, torture, murder and kidnapping operation - and Egypt facilitated the Hamas 10/7 rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation, so…



Side note:

Israel also has a right to deal with Iran, Lebanon, etc, for their roles in the 10/7 rape, murder, torture, and kidnapping operation, etc, in ways that may not be palatable to those who have the privilege of judging them from the relative safety of the U.S., etc.

There is nothing fair about the entire situation; but you know the old saying about love and war???…well this is war. (A war that Hamas wanted.)

 

[butters]

i think we need to agree to disagree on some points, L

 

[rgraham666]

Why are we debating this? Few people on every side of this conflict want peace.

They want victory. which is something else altogether.

 

[Lazaran]

Why are we debating this? Few people on every side of this conflict want peace.

They want victory. which is something else altogether.

I want peace - with Hamas out of power, Netanyahu and the right wing cabal in Israel out of power, the radical Muslims in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen, etc, out of power, and a legitimate two state solution that involves a demilitarized Palestine.

 

[rgraham666]

I want peace - with Hamas out of power, Netanyahu and the right wing cabal in Israel out of power, the radical Muslims in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen, etc, out of power, and a legitimate two state solution that involves a demilitarized Palestine.

Gonna have to demilitarize every nation in the world in that case. Because most will use a helpless Palestine as a punching bag, or an excuse to go after Israel.

There will not be peace in the Middle East in our lifetimes, nor our great grandchilren's lifetimes. I wish it was otherwise but the fear, anger, and hate are pretty much genetic now.

 

[Lazaran]

Gonna have to demilitarize every nation in the world in that case. Because most will use a helpless Palestine as a punching bag, or an excuse to go after Israel.

There will not be peace in the Middle East in our lifetimes, nor our great grandchilren's lifetimes. I wish it was otherwise but the fear, anger, and hate are pretty much genetic now.

Nah: Make a two state solution involving Palestine contingent upon demilitarization, and provide a mechanism for dissolving the newly formed Palestinian state and conferring full control of Gaza and the West Bank to Israel if the newly formed Palestinian state has been found to have violated the demilitarization provision.

The Israel-Palestine issue is unique, and a unique solution is required.

If Israel is expected to make concessions like abandoning established settlements in the West Bank, etc, and exposing themselves to another potential attack from ENEMIES sharing borders on ALL flanks , then some significant concessions and guarantees are to be expected from the Palestinians, etc; full stop.

JMTCW

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Gonna have to demilitarize every nation in the world in that case. Because most will use a helpless Palestine as a punching bag, or an excuse to go after Israel.

There will not be peace in the Middle East in our lifetimes, nor our great grandchilren's lifetimes. I wish it was otherwise but the fear, anger, and hate are pretty much genetic now.

Palestine has lots of allies in the region, and Israel leaves them alone until they attack Israeli citizens. The Palestinians could have had peace at any time during the last 70 years if they gave up their fever dream of exterminating the Jews and eradicating the state of Israel.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Why are we debating this? Few people on every side of this conflict want peace.

They want victory. which is something else altogether.

Israel wants peace. Their Arab neighbors want to destroy them.

 

[Lazaran]

Israel wants peace. Their Arab neighbors want to destroy them.

I honestly believe many people see Israel as the "big bully" in the neighborhood, because they only focus on Israel in relation to Gaza and the West Bank, while ignoring the reality of the view from 30,000 feet.

Israel is ACTUALLY the tiny kid in the neighborhood who has a big brother (the U..S.) who can’t be expected to (and isn’t in a position to) fight all its fights for them or with them. And the U.S. also can’t protect Israel at all times. 10/7 was proof of that.

If people would appreciate the reality of the position Israel is ACTUALLY in, then maybe they would have a different opinion on reasonable security assurances that must be secured and validated before moving forward from a post 10/7 / Gaza war world to a peaceful two state solution.

 

[rgraham666]

Nah: Make a two state solution involving Palestine contingent upon demilitarization, and provide a mechanism for dissolving the newly formed Palestinian state and conferring full control of Gaza and the West Bank to Israel if the newly formed Palestinian state has been found to have violated the demilitarization provision.

So, let's see how a dishonest actor could play with your requirements.

The most obvious answer is the 'He pulled a gun' excuse. An Israeli defense outpost announces they are taking fire. They send a unit to investigate and 'discover a cache of weapons'. Obviously Palestine has voided the agreement and Israel takes over. All it would take is another Netanyahu government, or perhaps even the current one.

What stops the settlers from 'resettling' the West Bank? Will that be counted as Israel dishonouring the agreement? Would Israel do anything to stop this? Would they help? It would be hard for them not to help if they need 'safe borders'.

What protects demilitarized Palestine from its other neighbours? I'm sure Egypt would love Gaza. I doubt Syria is in any shape to take the West Bank but a demilitarized Palestine might be too tempting a target.

A demilitarized Gaza would be nothing but a target and do little to stop the suffering of both sides.

 

[RobDownSouth]

I want peace - with Hamas out of power, Netanyahu and the right wing cabal in Israel out of power, the radical Muslims in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen, etc, out of power, and a legitimate two state solution that involves a demilitarized Palestine.

Netanyahu's coalition will collapse right after a Gaza ceasefire occurs. It's in Netanyahu's interest to maintain an active conflict as long as possible to retain power.

A "demilitarized Palestine" is not going to happen. Palestine should have every right to secure their existence as much as Israel does. Anything less than that is a double standard.

 

[Lazaran]

So, let's see how a dishonest actor could play with your requirements.

The most obvious answer is the 'He pulled a gun' excuse. An Israeli defense outpost announces they are taking fire. They send a unit to investigate and 'discover a cache of weapons'. Obviously Palestine has voided the agreement and Israel takes over. All it would take is another Netanyahu government, or perhaps even the current one.

Um, no… I was talking about if the Palestinians reconstituted a military with rockets and missiles and trained battalions. An isolated incident would be subject to local Palestinian law enforcement with international assistance to determine the particulars of the event and assist with the investigation. Israel would have a chance to offer evidence and testimony.

What stops the settlers from 'resettling' the West Bank? Will that be counted as Israel dishonouring the agreement? Would Israel do anything to stop this? Would they help? It would be hard for them not to help if they need 'safe borders'.

You must have misread my earlier post. A demilitarized Palestinian state would still be a state. There would obviously have to be an international defense agreement arranged for a demilitarized Palestine, with security assurance from the U.S., etc - and Israel itself would ALSO be responsible (and held responsible) for policing Israelis encroaching on Palestinian soil, etc.

What protects demilitarized Palestine from its other neighbours? I'm sure Egypt would love Gaza. I doubt Syria is in any shape to take the West Bank but a demilitarized Palestine might be too tempting a target.

See above.

A demilitarized Gaza would be nothing but a target and do little to stop the suffering of both sides.

A U.S., etc, security / defense agreement like the one we had with Ukraine would be enough of a deterrent for anyone not named Putin.

And if Palestine was successfully demilitarized, it would be in Israel’s interest to assist in repelling any encroachment on Palestinian sovereignty.

It’s a workable solution, imho. (Though nothing is perfect or infallible.)

 

[Lazaran]

Netanyahu's coalition will collapse right after a Gaza ceasefire occurs. It's in Netanyahu's interest to maintain an active conflict as long as possible to retain power.

Then it would be in the Palestinians’ best interest to agree to Israel’s demands that they be allowed to control the Philadelphi corridor, etc:

Secure the ceasefire; Netanyahu and the right wing Cabal get ousted; an Israeli government that is open to a two state solution that includes a demilitarized Palestine comes to power; negotiations ensue; an agreement is reached that includes defense assurances for Palestine, and voila. (Unless of course the Palestinians don’t really want a two state solution either…)

A "demilitarized Palestine" is not going to happen. Palestine should have every right to secure their existence as much as Israel does. Anything less than that is a double standard.

Well, yeah, there would be a double standard: The single standard couldn’t be trusted - as history has so painfully taught us.



Do people want the war to end and a two state solution to go forward or not???

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

So, let's see how a dishonest actor could play with your requirements.

The most obvious answer is the 'He pulled a gun' excuse. An Israeli defense outpost announces they are taking fire. They send a unit to investigate and 'discover a cache of weapons'. Obviously Palestine has voided the agreement and Israel takes over. All it would take is another Netanyahu government, or perhaps even the current one.

What stops the settlers from 'resettling' the West Bank? Will that be counted as Israel dishonouring the agreement? Would Israel do anything to stop this? Would they help? It would be hard for them not to help if they need 'safe borders'.

What protects demilitarized Palestine from its other neighbours? I'm sure Egypt would love Gaza. I doubt Syria is in any shape to take the West Bank but a demilitarized Palestine might be too tempting a target.

A demilitarized Gaza would be nothing but a target and do little to stop the suffering of both sides.

Gaza was part of Egypt until 1968 when they amassed troops there to attack Israel. Israel struck first and captured Gaza and the Sinai. A demilitarized Gaza is essential for Israel’s security. The small Jewish state is surrounded by larger Arab states who want to eradicate it. Peace will only be achieved in the Middle East when the Arabs stop trying to kill the Jews.

 

[rgraham666]

Gaza was part of Egypt until 1968 when they amassed troops there to attack Israel. Israel struck first and captured Gaza and the Sinai. A demilitarized Gaza is essential for Israel’s security. The small Jewish state is surrounded by larger Arab states who want to eradicate it. Peace will only be achieved in the Middle East when the Arabs stop trying to kill the Jews.

What stops Jews from killing Arabs?

Also, you didn't deal with any of my other points.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

What stops Jews from killing Arabs?

Also, you didn't deal with any of my other points.

Israel has a long history of leaving Gaza alone. They're only fighting there now because the October 7th and the remaining hostages being held.