closed Thread

[RobDownSouth]

So now Hamas and Gaza are reaping the whirlwind of their suicidal perfidy. The numbers in Gaza are minuscule compared to the near half a million we introduced to the afterlife in Iraq alone.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24547256

I've seen this argument several times in this thread.
"It's technically not genocide because only xxx civilians have died, whereas <other historical tragedy> had yyy civilian deaths".

Mass indiscriminate slaughter of civilians should not be tolerated, ever.

Bumper-sticker solutions offered up here seem to think "unconditional surrender" is the solution. A quick review of history shows how rare and unlikely that actually is. America got complacent after WW2. They choose not to remember Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[ll74]

Bumper-sticker solutions offered up here seem to think "unconditional surrender" is the solution. A quick review of history shows how rare and unlikely that actually is. America got complacent after WW2. They choose not to remember Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Whether the solution is likely or not is fully dependent on Hamas who has absolutely no interest in Gazan civilians, based on all actions. This should be done via political pressure by other country leaders but without such pressure, it is only accomplished by being forced to surrender via force.

The pressure on Israel is obvious.....we need more on Hamas.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Whether the solution is likely or not is fully dependent on Hamas who has absolutely no interest in Gazan civilians, based on all actions. This should be done via political pressure by other country leaders but without such pressure, it is only accomplished by being forced to surrender via force.

The pressure on Israel is obvious.....we need more on Hamas.

And therein lies the rub....how to "put pressure" on Hamas?

The United States announced it would open unilateral negotiations with Hamas to free the five dual-loyalty American-Israeli citizens being detained in Gaza. American diplomats frankly admitted they had little to offer in negotiations.

I don't see how "Other countries" can realistically "put pressure" on Hamas without an exponential increase in civilian casualties, which is counterproductive to all non-Israeli interests.

Israel has badly overplayed their hand in this debacle. Each passing day they become even more of a pariah on the world scene, their intractability plays well to an extent on their domestic front but exposes them as amoral feckless not-to-be-trusted players on the world stage. Israel is slowly poisoning their relationship with the United States, and without US backing, Israel will not survive long.

 

[ll74]

And therein lies the rub....how to "put pressure" on Hamas?

Arab countries are the key.

The United States announced it would open unilateral negotiations with Hamas to free the five dual-loyalty American-Israeli citizens being detained in Gaza. American diplomats frankly admitted they had little to offer in negotiations.

I don't see how "Other countries" can realistically "put pressure" on Hamas without an exponential increase in civilian casualties, which is counterproductive to all non-Israeli interests.

I wouldn't actually know - none of these protests seem to give a rats ass about Hamas. I expect if Hamas was also protested against, then pressure might be visible..... But maybes it's just me

Israel has badly overplayed their hand in this debacle. Each passing day they become even more of a pariah on the world scene, their intractability plays well to an extent on their domestic front but exposes them as amoral feckless not-to-be-trusted players on the world stage. Israel is slowly poisoning their relationship with the United States, and without US backing, Israel will not survive long.

I don't think that's true. I think people need to focus on what's important. If casualties are your issue, the fastest and most effective method to end them is for Hamas to surrender. Israel will continue fighting because hostages are still held and Hamas leadership is still in place. They wouldn't have a valid reason to continue if those two things cease to exist.

 

[KeithD]

the fastest and most effective method to end them is for Hamas to surrender.

That's a nonstarter. That isn't going to happen. Don't even try to include it as any part of a solution package. There are only two reality elements for Hamas in a solution that doesn't just go more or less back to pre-October status quo (which is the most likely result here): wipe out Hamas or include whatever's left of them in the control equation. Wiping them out is fine with me. The cost of doing so isn't fine.

 

[ll74]

That's a nonstarter. That isn't going to happen. Don't even try to include it as any part of a solution package. There are only two reality elements for Hamas in a solution that doesn't just go more or less back to pre-October status quo (which is the most likely result here): wipe out Hamas or include whatever's left of them in the control equation. Wiping them out is fine with me. The cost of doing so isn't fine.

Political pressure works. Israel has no reason to cease hostilities until Hamas is removed and hostages are returned.

Any solution without the above is temporary.

 

[KeithD]

Political pressure works. Israel has no reason to cease hostilities until Hamas is removed and hostages are returned.

Any solution without the above is temporary.

We've done eighty years of tenuous temporary with the Middle East situation (I did a couple of decades of it myself). I'm presuming that will continue with another iteration of low-stick Scotch tape giving limited and temporary relief.

 

[censurat]

Sinwar: The More Civilian Deaths in Gaza, the Better​

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-ea...hed-will-help-hamas-626720e7?mod=hp_lead_pos1

 

[censurat]

Sinwar: The More Civilian Deaths in Gaza, the Better​

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-ea...hed-will-help-hamas-626720e7?mod=hp_lead_pos1

but everyone knows this and does NOTHING but shit on JEWS

 

[censurat]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1800529551669473584

 

[censurat]

Since they all want to be martyrs, there really aren’t any civilian casualties. They all consider themselves enemy combatants.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Arab countries are the key.

Let's game this out then. What exactly can other arab countries do to stop the Israeli carnage? They cannot pressure Israel directly, Uncle Sam won't permit it. They cannot send military supplies to Gaza, again Uncle Sam won't permit it.

The only thing I can see is Egypt permitting Gazan refugees to relocate to Egypt, and that won't happen either, because Egypt has no interest in making Israel's problem their problem. An inexact corollary would be along the lines of Mexico fighting their drug cartels, and the world asking the US to open their borders to Mexican drug cartels to achieve peace in Mexico.

What can Arab countries offer Gaza? In my mind, one thing: petroleum. Have the United States force Israel to allow Gaza to import low-cost/discounted petroleum into Gaza as a good-faith effort to help restore the Gazan infrastructure.

Arab countries are the key.


I wouldn't actually know - none of these protests seem to give a rats ass about Hamas. I expect if Hamas was also protested against, then pressure might be visible..... But maybes it's just me


I don't think that's true. I think people need to focus on what's important. If casualties are your issue, the fastest and most effective method to end them is for Hamas to surrender. Israel will continue fighting because hostages are still held and Hamas leadership is still in place. They wouldn't have a valid reason to continue if those two things cease to exist

Let's game this out then. What exactly can other arab countries do to stop the Israeli carnage?
They cannot pressure Israel directly, Uncle Sam won't permit it.
They cannot send military supplies to Gaza, again Uncle Sam won't permit it.

The only thing I can see is Egypt permitting Gazan refugees to relocate to Egypt, and that won't happen either, because Egypt has no interest in making Israel's problem their problem. An inexact corollary would be along the lines of Mexico fighting their drug cartels, and the world asking the US to open their borders to Mexican drug cartels to achieve peace in Mexico.

What can Arab countries offer Gaza? In my mind, one thing: petroleum. Have the United States force Israel to allow Gaza to import low-cost/discounted petroleum into Gaza as a good-faith effort to help restore the Gazan infrastructure. Hamas releases hostages, Arab countries supply oil, Israel can declare "victory" and go back to their illegal West Bank land grab.

Israel would complain about any "carrot" approach to peace in Gaza (they prefer "the stick"), of course, but then Israel complains about everything.

 

[mrno]

My dear friend, from the beginning the tourist attack on Oct 7, about 7000 children were killed, if one of them was your kid, do you still call these inecence kids as terrorist !!?
Sorry, if we judge, we should judge not only by our heart feeling ,but by our mental judgement too.

It is sad so many children have died.
Please answer why Hamas hides behind them.

 

[ll74]

Let's game this out then. What exactly can other arab countries do to stop the Israeli carnage? They cannot pressure Israel directly, Uncle Sam won't permit it. They cannot send military supplies to Gaza, again Uncle Sam won't permit it.

The only thing I can see is Egypt permitting Gazan refugees to relocate to Egypt, and that won't happen either, because Egypt has no interest in making Israel's problem their problem. An inexact corollary would be along the lines of Mexico fighting their drug cartels, and the world asking the US to open their borders to Mexican drug cartels to achieve peace in Mexico.

What can Arab countries offer Gaza? In my mind, one thing: petroleum. Have the United States force Israel to allow Gaza to import low-cost/discounted petroleum into Gaza as a good-faith effort to help restore the Gazan infrastructure.

Let's game this out then. What exactly can other arab countries do to stop the Israeli carnage?
They cannot pressure Israel directly, Uncle Sam won't permit it.
They cannot send military supplies to Gaza, again Uncle Sam won't permit it.

The only thing I can see is Egypt permitting Gazan refugees to relocate to Egypt, and that won't happen either, because Egypt has no interest in making Israel's problem their problem. An inexact corollary would be along the lines of Mexico fighting their drug cartels, and the world asking the US to open their borders to Mexican drug cartels to achieve peace in Mexico.

What can Arab countries offer Gaza? In my mind, one thing: petroleum. Have the United States force Israel to allow Gaza to import low-cost/discounted petroleum into Gaza as a good-faith effort to help restore the Gazan infrastructure. Hamas releases hostages, Arab countries supply oil, Israel can declare "victory" and go back to their illegal West Bank land grab.

Israel would complain about any "carrot" approach to peace in Gaza (they prefer "the stick"), of course, but then Israel complains about everything.

If Hamas surrenders and turns over hostages, Israel will not have a leg to stand on to continue hostility. Arab countries could force this to happen if they wanted. We should pressure them to do so.

 

[censurat]

Gaza gets MORE aid per capita then any enity in the world

they use it for tunnels and terror attacks

 

[Chobham]

Israel needs to escalate their attacks. Fuck brain dead Joe and his 'Two State Solution' (Michigan and Minnesota).

 

[RobDownSouth]

It is sad so many children have died.
Please answer why Hamas hides behind them.

Hamas is not "hiding behind children". That's an excuse that Israel uses to justify killing civilians.

The reality is the population density of Gaza is very high. Most of the country is an urban combat zone. There is no "safe space" for women and children and the elderly to hide and/or avoid hostilities.

Americans fought house-by-house in urban combat scenarios in Afghanistan. They incurred casualties on their side as a result of their rules of engagement.

Israel has chosen to ignore the Geneva accords and makes no attempt to minimize civilian casualties, the old "kill 'em all and let Yahweh sort 'em out" mindset that didn't serve America well when America was in Vietnam.

 

[censurat]

Sinwar: The More Civilian Deaths in Gaza, the Better​

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-ea...hed-will-help-hamas-626720e7?mod=hp_lead_pos1

they want dead civilians

 

[Chobham]

they want dead civilians

Totally consistent with what they are.................a death cult.

 

[komesh]

It is sad so many children have died.
Please answer why Hamas hides behind them.

You, are hundred percent right honey, that Hamas uses the people as the human shield. It is a barbarian crime,but it doesn't mean because Hamas act like animal, Israel does the same crime and kill the kids women and old people. There is no humanity reasons,if someone kills my kid, I kill his kid too! We live in 21 century, so here is not jungle to follow the Jungle Law!!!
Israel government claims the he is a democratic country, but he believes for washing Hamas, who are less than 20000 militants, killing more than 30000 inecence people is logic and humanity!!!

 

[Chobham]

You, are hundred percent right honey, that Hamas uses the people as the human shield. It is a barbarian crime,but it doesn't mean because Hamas act like animal, Israel does the same crime and kill the kids women and old people. There is no humanity reasons,if someone kills my kid, I kill his kid too! We live in 21 century, so here is not jungle to follow the Jungle Law!!!
Israel government claims the he is a democratic country, but he believes for washing Hamas, who are less than 20000 militants, killing more than 30000 inecence people is logic and humanity!!!

Tough shit. Israel needs to eliminate Hamas and their followers to the last individual. Hamas is making their best effort to maximize collateral damage.

 

[komesh]

Tough shit. Israel needs to eliminate Hamas and their followers to the last individual. Hamas is making their best effort to maximize collateral damageI

My dear friend, it doesn't matter what I think, or what you think, The matter is the reality, and what is the reality, it is a dirty war between two groups who do not care about their people. If Hamas cares about 1.8 million Palestinians he never attacked the music festival, and, if BB cares about the Israeli people who left their homes for more than 8 months without any hope to return to their homes, and if he wants to realize the rest of the hostages, he agrees to stop the war and sign the peace agreement. Believe me, none of them think about the people but keep themselves in power.

 

[komesh]

Does anybody think why the hate of Zionism rose all around the world? The answer is too simple!!!

 

[censurat]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1800803768163815834

why deprive them of the JOY

 

[ll74]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1800803768163815834

why deprive them of the JOY

Duplicate post