What I Wrote And Why - A Family Ritual

[alohadave]

I’d argue it’s close to impossible to write an incest story that is simultaneously realistic and titillating

I don't think most people want too much realism in their sex stories. They want truthiness and verisimilitude. Most people are not shaped like pornstars and don't have sex like the stories we write. It's escapism and fantasy.

I'd argue that this particular story is more literary than most here. While there is sex, it serves the story rather than the story set up the sex scene. I imagine that you could easily expand it out to a full length novel and it could be commercially sellable. You can't say that about too many porn stories.

 

[AchtungNight]

Well, fine then, you write what you think best. Long as some readers appreciate it.

 

[EmilyMiller]

(Nowadays I bundle these in a series I call "One-off artsy stuff". That seems to have helped the ratings.)

Attempts at Serious Stories.

Emily

 

[ThatNewGuy]

(Nowadays I bundle these in a series I call "One-off artsy stuff". That seems to have helped the ratings.)

I thought you were kidding, but you really do have a heading on your Submissions page called "One-Off Artsy Stuff". That's fantastic. I love it.

 

[Djmac1031]

I think the story hit me the wrong way because, like most incest readers, I wanted to see a positive story without grooming and what we got, while not entirely negative, was still played as not what I wanted to see. I think we can’t help but emphasize the negatives of sex once they are alluded to, especially when we ourselves are victims of those negatives. I prefer to think of sex as a natural fun activity, not something people force on others. Then again, I am capable of addressing its dark sides also and working to overcome them. Not everyone likes having those dark sides brought up and emphasized as the story does. “I was abused, I now use my sexuality as a way to make extra money, but I’m getting older, hmm you’re young and that could make you more lucrative for a while…”- this does not sound like a good relationship to me. I have no problem with sisters exploring sexuality together, but when they feel forced into uncomfortable situations… I hope you understand.

Wow. What's this? A well thought out rebuttal that explains a difference of opinion and viewpoint without resorting to personal attacks and assumptions of author intent?

Will wonders never cease.

I fully appreciate your thoughts here, @AchtungNight . You obviously weren't the target audience for Em's story, but that's okay.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I don't think most people want too much realism in their sex stories. They want truthiness and verisimilitude. Most people are not shaped like pornstars and don't have sex like the stories we write. It's escapism and fantasy.

I of course agree - and I write a load of that. Cressie the cum addict who craves barebacking unvetted strangers, and who is not on birth control as it’s more exciting that way, comes to mind.

But I want to write in other keys as well.

I'd argue that this particular story is more literary than most here. While there is sex, it serves the story rather than the story set up the sex scene. I imagine that you could easily expand it out to a full length novel and it could be commercially sellable. You can't say that about too many porn stories.

It could have done with at least twice the length [couldn’t we all?] to do the concept justice and to better qualify the motivations. But I didn’t have a longer story in the genre in me.

Emily

 

[AchtungNight]

Wow. What's this? A well thought out rebuttal that explains a difference of opinion and viewpoint without resorting to personal attacks and assumptions of author intent?

Will wonders never cease.

I fully appreciate your thoughts here, @AchtungNight . You obviously weren't the target audience for Em's story, but that's okay.

Well, that’s the risk of putting stories out before the public. You can’t expect only the target audience to read them. And, honestly, that would be boring, right?

 

[EmilyMiller]

Well, that’s the risk of putting stories out before the public. You can’t expect only the target audience to read them. And, honestly, that would be boring, right?

The problem with categories one of the problems with categories is expectations. That’s a super constraining way to write. I’d hate churning out essentially the same stuff over and over again just to please an audience. Unless I was getting paid a $50k advance each time. In which case, sign me up.

I don’t have paid work to advertize. I have no plans to make my money writing (don’t all say “that’s lucky” at once). It’s a hobby and I’m gonna write what I find interesting to write.

Emily

 

[AchtungNight]

The problem with categories one of the problems with categories is expectations. That’s a super constraining way to write. I’d hate churning out essentially the same stuff over and over again just to please an audience. Unless I was getting paid a $50k advance each time. In which case, sign me up.

I don’t have paid work to advertize. I have no plans to make my money writing (don’t all say “good job” at once). It’s a hobby and I’m gonna write what I find interesting to write.

Emily

I feel the same way. I’m going to write what I enjoy and if other people enjoy it, great. And screw their expectations- it’s usually when I’ve conformed to those in the past that I have struggled and not enjoyed my games.

 

[Trionyx]

I’d hate churning out essentially the same stuff over and over again just to please an audience.

This. Some of my works I'm happiest with and proudest of have not fared so well with the voters. I wouldn't change a thing. Unless I'm probing and seeking new ideas and twists, I am not satisfying myself. Until I start getting paid for my work (eg: never), I'll keep doing as I am.

 

[EmilyMiller]

This. Some of my works I'm happiest with and proudest of have not fared so well with the voters. I wouldn't change a thing. Unless I'm probing and seeking new ideas and twists, I am not satisfying myself. Until I start getting paid for my work (eg: never), I'll keep doing as I am.

Yeah - I mean I’m flattered if people like what I write, but - as I always say to someone who loves the first of my stories they have read and says they want to read more - check the category and tags. People who like my more romantic work might hate my BDSM. People who enjoy my lesbian might not be fans of my gang bang stories.

Me? I get bored easily.

Emily

 

[MrHereWriting]

My "Extended Notes" threads had a different target audience, my readers. I never wrote them with other authors in mind.

Doesn't matter, same idea.

 

[lovecraft68]

Doesn't matter, same idea.

And both show very few readers ever come to the forum, or if they do they don't post. All the replies to the what I wrote threads are forum regulars. Like I said, I doubt many readers care why and how we wrote our stories. They come here hoping for another story, not an essay on an old one.

There was a guy who did a series of interviews with popular authors, and being me, I can't remember his name, but the interviews had sadly low view and vote totals, and like these most comments were from other authors. He did one with Silk, who is the most popular author on the site by far and even that one didn't see a lot of interest.

 

[Voboy]

I don't care what your game is, but you don't get better until you get knocked down, get up, say fuck you and go at it again.

Not everyone is like you.

In general, I don't think you crossed over the line in replying to Em here; it was your opinion and you signposted that. Well and good.

But your views on how people learn or improve are uncompromising and bleak, and while they're probably correct for many people, they're not correct for everyone. Posting absolutes like this is a sure way to get an eye-roll from me. Nobody has the one solution for "how to get better."

 

[Lovecraft_Lore]

The story was.... something. I really like your other stories. Incest is not my thing and this story was dark. Anyway, it good that you are trying different categories and styles.

 

[MrHereWriting]

And both show very few readers ever come to the forum, or if they do they don't post. All the replies to the what I wrote threads are forum regulars. Like I said, I doubt many readers care why and how we wrote our stories. They come here hoping for another story, not an essay on an old one.

There was a guy who did a series of interviews with popular authors, and being me, I can't remember his name, but the interviews had sadly low view and vote totals, and like these most comments were from other authors. He did one with Silk, who is the most popular author on the site by far and even that one didn't see a lot of interest.

That is all true.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The story was.... something. I really like your other stories. Incest is not my thing and this story was dark. Anyway, it good that you are trying different categories and styles.

I found myself unable to write a light-hearted incest romp. Others are able to suspend disbelief to do that, good luck to them, there is clearly a massive audience for that - as there is for non-con. All I can do is write what I can write.

The point of these threads, and the related Review & Essay stories that Laurel approached @StillStunned about for an event, is for authors to talk to other authors. It’s not to attract readers. It’s not to engage with readers. Maybe someone should ask @Laurel about what she had in mind (oh yeah, @StillStunned and several others spoke to her already at length).

It’s an author-centric thing - I guess much like the 750 word stories. No one seriously writes the latter to win a popularity contest. They are authorial masturbation. Not that there is anything wrong with that. And the balance of the site is so far towards the readers, that an occasional author-fest is welcome.

It’s kinda hilarious actually. There was the normal bitching by the unusual suspects about how much better things were in the “golden age” of Literotica. And complaints that no one talked about stories or writing anymore. As a result, I wrote a review thread (that obviously ended well - people get triggered so easily) and @StillStunned also had the (vastly superior) idea of WIWAW, posting the first few himself.

But - and here comes the punchline - apparently it’s not OK to write WIWAWs either. Or at least if these cover an experience or viewpoint distasteful to other people. Or - more likely - if they are written by some deeply annoying person.

I wonder what it might be OK to write about on a forum called Author’s Hangout. It beats me. Any suggestions welcome.

Emily

 

[Voboy]

I wrote a WIWAW and I enjoyed it. I was happy to post it here and deal with the ensuing polite interest from a few correspondents, and that was that. I think they're a great idea, and while I wouldn't use that kind of thread to give a writer negative feedback, I'm not surprised that the usual suspects would.

Which is not an indictment on the concept as a whole. WIWAW is still worthwhile, and it's ideal (I think) for the AH. Personally I have no intention of posting mine as an essay for non-writers. But I'm glad others feel comfortable doing so.

 

[KeithD]

I wrote a WIWAW and I enjoyed it.

Me too. Maybe I wasn't taking it seriously enough.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Me too. Maybe I wasn't taking it seriously enough.

It’s meant to be about the author’s experience. That could be very different for different people.

Emily

 

[MrHereWriting]

But - and here comes the punchline - apparently it’s not OK to write WIWAWs either. Or at least if these cover an experience or viewpoint distasteful to other people. Or - more likely - if they are written by some deeply annoying person.

I wonder what it might be OK to write about on a forum called Author’s Hangout. It beats me. Any suggestions welcome.

Emily

Of course it's OK to write a Why I Wrote...stop being dramatic, you're not a victim, but when you write this:

Nevertheless... I have a negative attitude towards incest. Thankfully, I have no personal experience of it, but the phrases it brings to my mind are ones like: abuse of power, control, non-consent, and damaged lives. It feels akin to rape to me, and I guess it often is, for all practical purposes.

expect some blowback.

You squatted on a sexual fetish meant to be harmless and self-indulgent on Lit (like all of the fetishes on Lit), not criminal.

You posted in a forum, expect discussion.

Do another Why I Wrote...there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Here's my imaginary ten cents.

I liked the story. I thought it was well-crafted as a short story, hit all the necessary story elements, and left me (as a reader) thinking, which is always the sign of a good story.

I liked the essay - though I've found some of the Why I Wrote...essays tough to get through, this was one of the better ones.

Keep at it Emily - your craft is steadily improving. That's one of the reasons I like reading the Why I Wrote essays - it's an interesting peek into the minds of other authors.

Some of you all are pretty scary in there! (I'm entirely joking.)

 

[EmilyMiller]

Here's my imaginary ten cents.

I liked the story. I thought it was well-crafted as a short story, hit all the necessary story elements, and left me (as a reader) thinking, which is always the sign of a good story.

I liked the essay - though I've found some of the Why I Wrote...essays tough to get through, this was one of the better ones.

Keep at it Emily - your craft is steadily improving. That's one of the reasons I like reading the Why I Wrote essays - it's an interesting peek into the minds of other authors.

Some of you all are pretty scary in there! (I'm entirely joking.)

Thanks and thanks for the comment as well.

I wasn’t aiming to upset anyone - then people are so sensitive sometimes (strangely it’s often the ones who like dishing out abuse themselves) - but I was certainly not writing for a general I/T audience. Again the issue is categories and people feeling that they own the content of stories in their own backyard and that authors must “behave.”

If I had posted my story in any other category, it would have got moved to I/T. It’s an I/T story. The problem is some people only want their own kind of story. And they get personally affronted if their expectations are not met. You see this in many categories where an author has the temerity to go even slightly their own way.

I was pleasantly surprised how well the story was received by some. It was only ever some that I was trying to connect with, not the masses. I’d have written the back seat of the car story I mention (I might even have got the “right” person on top) if I wanted approbation from the masses.

Anyone who thinks incest is a harmless bit of fun will hate my story. That’s their prerogative. The same thing has happened to me in other categories. Thing is, writing what I want to write isn’t something I just pay lip service too, unlike many. It’s my prerogative to write whatever type of I/T story I like.

And if my craft is improving (at a glacial pace) it’s only because I refuse to keep recycling the same old shit. This approach leads to misteps, but it is at least a way to keep walking forwards, albeit slowly.

Emily

 

[MrHereWriting]

First off, when you discuss a story here, people are going to talk about it. I read it initially=because Em posts every time she puts something out, and refrained from commenting on the story or here, then she comes back moaning over the reception, so this time I commented, but here, not on the story because I don't leave negative comments nor do I drop bombs, I didn't like her piece and left it, now she's poking the crowd again.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Agree. This is a share site, not a critique site. So, I don't look at it from the prospective of someone who wants to give critique or guidance but from the prospective of the writer who wants to share what they've written, not be told how they could have written it better (in someone's unvetted judgment) unless/until they've directly asked for critique.

Honest question: How did you adapt that view?

I mean, this is a forum, not a blog. A blog with disabled comments is for sharing, a forum is for discussion. And even on the story-side, there are three different places (Two different feedback forms and the comment section) where people are asked to tell you what they think about your writing. I'm kinda surprised that anyone would post anything here and not expect to automatically receive unasked opinions.