The Myth of the Elective Third Trimester Abortion

[adrina]

Okay, found it. Here is a solid data source (with access to the underlying data tables), from the Guttmacher Institute (a pro-choice organization). The rate of VToP and TToP (also called TFMR (termination for medical reasons) hovers around 75% voluntary termination and 25% medical reasons (parent or fetus).

https://www.guttmacher.org/journals...ons-quantitative-and-qualitative-perspectives

There is also a ton of other interesting data in there, if you're a data wonk.

Catch up baby tomato.

Congratulations on finding the information that is used to inform many of my opinions on abortion.

I recommend you continue digging - as I have. What you will see is that there is not a single documented instance of an elective abortion in the third trimester.

So, now that you've been brought up to speed would you like to assess the nature of existing restrictive legislation regarding late term abortions?

(Hint: See Kate Cox. For a start.)

 

[a93dipqx]

That's why I am trying to narrow the language down. "Elective" is the political term. It appears the medical term is TToP (Therapeutic Termination of Pregnancy - where the life of the mother or child is at risk) and VToP (Voluntary Termination of Pregnancy). I've found some references where you could calculate in on the numbers, but so far they've been buried behind pay-walls. It appears that, in general, about 70+ percent of abortions are VToP, and about 30% are TTop. No direct cite yet. I'll keep poking at it out of curiosity.

(Cosmetic surgery to the face is also split a similar way - medically necessary, as in cases of injury or deformity, and voluntary, as in "make me better looking".)

Like the Centers for Disease Control link you provided, the percentage of Voluntary Termination of Pregnancy versus Therapeutic Termination of Pregnancy do not further this discussion, but instead retard the discussion.

The theme of this thread deals with late-term abortions. Any percentage of Voluntary Termination of Pregnancy that does not represent those cases only in the third trimester are meaningless.

 

[Lazaran]

A point to make about the use of the CDC's information within the context of this discussion. This thread's theme addresses the question of late term abortions, which--and I suspect everyone would agree--occurs well into the third trimester. The third trimester of a pregnancy begins at week twenty-eight. Your Centers for Disease Control charts only list abortions occurring at greater than twenty-one weeks.

In this instance, including information from the CDC does not offer any illumination on the topic, but rather works to obscure a meaningful dialog. It refutes nothing.

Obscuring and failing to refute anything is the hallmark of a gaslighter.

Enter Paul C.

 

[a93dipqx]

Okay, found it. Here is a solid data source (with access to the underlying data tables), from the Guttmacher Institute (a pro-choice organization). The rate of VToP and TToP (also called TFMR (termination for medical reasons) hovers around 75% voluntary termination and 25% medical reasons (parent or fetus).

https://www.guttmacher.org/journals...ons-quantitative-and-qualitative-perspectives

There is also a ton of other interesting data in there, if you're a data wonk.

I'll make a couple of points here.

1. The results of this survey are twenty years old.
2. Even if the results were current, they do not offer information regarding late-term pregnancy aka third trimester abortions.

 

[adrina]

I have always found it interesting that (conservative) men approach abortion legislation from the position that elective third term abortions are even a thing.

It doesn't speak well to how they perceive women. I have often thought that they - men - would electively terminate a pregnancy in the third term if it was their bodies and their decision.

Even though a woman has never been known or documented to.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Paul_Chance]

The data specific to third trimester in within the Guttmacher data.

Denial of the existence of the data does not mean the data doesn't exist.

If you sincerely did not know the data existed...now you do. If you don't care that the data exists, that's fine.

The OP asked if there was data and expressed that she was not aware of the data. I simply found the data. Do with it what you want.

I take no personal insult. I knew coming it that this is the Lit Politics board, which has it's own flavor and style. Do with the data what you will.

I expressed no opinion on the subject on the subject of abortion. (For the record, if anyone is actually curious as to my opinion - I'm a democrat who lives, quite happily, in California. I am pro-choice, up to and including the final trimester. Abortion is a choice, as far as I am concerned, between the woman and her medical provider, within the context of her moral and ethical framework and her circumstances and relationships.)

 

[adrina]

The data specific to third trimester in within the Guttmacher data.

Denial of the existence of the data does not mean the data doesn't exist.

If you sincerely did not know the data existed...now you do. If you don't care that the data exists, that's fine.

The OP asked if there was data and expressed that she was not aware of the data. I simply found the data. Do with it what you want.

I take no personal insult. I knew coming it that this is the Lit Politics board, which has it's own flavor and style. Do with the data what you will.

I expressed no opinion on the subject on the subject of abortion. (For the record, if anyone is actually curious as to my opinion - I'm a democrat who lives, quite happily, in California. I am pro-choice, up to and including the final trimester. Abortion is a choice, as far as I am concerned, between the woman and her medical provider, within the context of her moral and ethical framework and her circumstances and relationships.)

That whoosh was the obvious flying right over your head.

Let's try this again.

I've been aware of the Guttmacher institute for well over twenty years. I've spent many hours on their website. I have looked extensively at their data sets. As well as the CDC. Thank you for mansplaining.

To summarize: I am 100% aware that there is no specific data sets limited to the third trimester. I am also aware that the data sets include the 5th an 6th months. (As an FYI - are you aware that the majority of elective 5th and 6th month abortions are because of delays caused by legislative roadblocks? ie blocking insurance coverage, barriers to care, waiting periods, ultrasounds, forced counseling.)

You've ignored just about every post because you think you're on some intellectual foray.

In the meantime you've missed the point:

Why is late term abortion legislated as if it happens electively when there is not one single documented instance of an elective third term abortion?

 

[a93dipqx]

The data specific to third trimester in within the Guttmacher data.

Denial of the existence of the data does not mean the data doesn't exist.

If you sincerely did not know the data existed...now you do. If you don't care that the data exists, that's fine.

The OP asked if there was data and expressed that she was not aware of the data. I simply found the data. Do with it what you want.

I take no personal insult. I knew coming it that this is the Lit Politics board, which has it's own flavor and style. Do with the data what you will.

I expressed no opinion on the subject on the subject of abortion. (For the record, if anyone is actually curious as to my opinion - I'm a democrat who lives, quite happily, in California. I am pro-choice, up to and including the final trimester. Abortion is a choice, as far as I am concerned, between the woman and her medical provider, within the context of her moral and ethical framework and her circumstances and relationships.)

Quote it. I reviewed the contents and the tables and did not see anything specific to third trimester abortions.

 

[Fuzzy1975]

The data specific to third trimester in within the Guttmacher data.

Denial of the existence of the data does not mean the data doesn't exist.

If you sincerely did not know the data existed...now you do. If you don't care that the data exists, that's fine.

The OP asked if there was data and expressed that she was not aware of the data. I simply found the data. Do with it what you want.

I take no personal insult. I knew coming it that this is the Lit Politics board, which has it's own flavor and style. Do with the data what you will.

I expressed no opinion on the subject on the subject of abortion. (For the record, if anyone is actually curious as to my opinion - I'm a democrat who lives, quite happily, in California. I am pro-choice, up to and including the final trimester. Abortion is a choice, as far as I am concerned, between the woman and her medical provider, within the context of her moral and ethical framework and her circumstances and relationships.)

Let keep this simple, there are no thrid trimester abortions. Period end of story. There has never been, and never will be one.

You just finished a post illustrating the difference of the meanings between elective and non elective surgery. So now I will do the same for you.

An abortion is a medical procedure, delivery is another medical procedure. Both apply to pregnant women. However after a fetus has reached the third trimester, the procedure used to "expel" a fetus would be either via an induction delivery, or cesarean section delivery.

Because of how medical information is track, there is no data on third trimester abortions. There should be data on third trimester pregnant women who cannot carry to term, but it won't be included under the VTop/Vtop data in the Guttmacher site, or any other site tracking abortion information.

 

[Bn2f]

NGL that shit is fucking brilliant.

I wish I’d come up with that but I believe ROE YOUR VOTE originated from an advocacy group.

 

[RobDownSouth]

Took a month for you to come up with an answer...and this one is from a righty rag with dubious facts: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/lozier-institute/

You lose. Play again?

I wish Media Bias Fact Check would update their findings for the crackpot Lozier Institute....On February 2, 2024 the Sage Medical Publishing group RETRACTED three major studies about abortion published in their various journals.

Egregious scientific research. Foremost is claiming all data was "peer reviewed" when the actual "peer reviewer" was a junior staffer employed by the Lozier Institute. Can you say "conflict of interest"? The staffer continued employment depended upon his approval of research methods.

Professional statisticians reviewed statistical methodology and found them lacking, almost as if they were designed to work backwards from a predetermined conclusion (or 'conclussion' (sic) in ish-speak).

 

[Pad_Foot]

Jesus Christ! Not fucking data

An actual case!

I know a couple who sat by their daughter for a day or so after she was born with a defective heart. Their are those who would call that an abortion after birth

Those who do are absolute assholes

Show us an example where someone had a third trimester abortion which killed a viable child ? This is the horror that has been presented to us. Show us A CASE

Not numbers!

I wish this argument had been made in the House where these apparent horror stories were talked about.

 

[FelHarper]

In the interest of accurate information.

According to this study (with an admittedly small sample size), four of twenty-eight women who got abortions at the clinic chosen in the study did not discover their pregnancy until after they had passed the 24th week. These abortions would hypothetically have been undertaken earlier in the pregnancy if the women had known they were pregnant.

 

[RobDownSouth]

In the interest of accurate information.

According to this study (with an admittedly small sample size), four of twenty-eight women who got abortions at the clinic chosen in the study did not discover their pregnancy until after they had passed the 24th week. These abortions would hypothetically have been undertaken earlier in the pregnancy if the women had known they were pregnant.

My Niece was like that. She's an endurance athlete, ultramarathoner stuff. Had irregular periods for years because of the stress she put on her body. She couldn't figure out why she was gaining weight despite burning off something like 10,000 calories a day. She finally found out she was 20 weeks pregnant. She didn't have an abortion, but it was a bit of surprise to the family, oh she's pregnant and due in 3-4 months.

 

[adrina]

Seems like a good time to bump this and see if anyone has found that unicorn of the elective third term abortion.

 

[TastySuckToy]

Seems like a good time to bump this and see if anyone has found that unicorn of the elective third term abortion.

This still means any ban of elective third term abortions will infringe on no one, correct?

 

[adrina]

This still means any ban of elective third term abortions will infringe on no one, correct?

One would think it should. However even the state of Texas has an exception but one wasn't granted to Kate Cox. She is not alone.

Given the reality of poorly written laws paired with the dishonesty and zealotry of the anti-abortion folks, it has made it very difficult for a woman who needs a third term abortion to acquire one.

 

[TastySuckToy]

One would think it should. However even the state of Texas has an exception but one wasn't granted to Kate Cox. She is not alone.

Given the reality of poorly written laws paired with the dishonesty and zealotry of the anti-abortion folks, it has made it very difficult for a woman who needs a third term abortion to acquire one.

Seems the key difference is the term 'elective', and any laws regarding it need to be, as you pointed out, better written and clearly estsblished.

 

[adrina]

Seems the key difference is the term 'elective', and any laws regarding it need to be, as you pointed out, better written and clearly estsblished.

Laws based around medical science would be nice.

Kate Cox was not an elective case. The fetus was not viable. The problem is that the third term abortion laws are written as if women are aborting fetuses for no medical cause - just electively because they don't want to carry to term. This is a faulty assumption and is working against women who desperately need third term abortions. (And frankly it is insulting to women and says a lot about what these anti-abortion legislators think of women. Or think of how they would handle the situation if it were themselves. Heh.)

This is the problem with the overwhelming vast majority of abortion laws. They aren't written for reality, they aren't written in line with medical science, they aren't written with the health of the mother in mind. They are written to stop abortion at all costs. That's all.

That's ignorant and is proving to be very dangerous for women. And society.

 

[Lazaran]

One would think it should. However even the state of Texas has an exception but one wasn't granted to Kate Cox. She is not alone.

Given the reality of poorly written laws paired with the dishonesty and zealotry of the anti-abortion folks, it has made it very difficult for a woman who needs a third term abortion to acquire one.

Laws based around medical science would be nice.

Kate Cox was not an elective case. The fetus was not viable. The problem is that the third term abortion laws are written as if women are aborting fetuses for no medical cause - just electively because they don't want to carry to term. This is a faulty assumption and is working against women who desperately need third term abortions. (And frankly it is insulting to women and says a lot about what these anti-abortion legislators think of women. Or think of how they would handle the situation if it were themselves. Heh.)

This is the problem with the overwhelming vast majority of abortion laws. They aren't written for reality, they aren't written in line with medical science, they aren't written with the health of the mother in mind. They are written to stop abortion at all costs. That's all.

That's ignorant and is proving to be very dangerous for women. And society.

Trust a woman and her doctor???

Keep the government out of a woman’s personal health decisions???

What century are you living in???

 

[TastySuckToy]

Laws based around medical science would be nice.

Opinions as well. That's why I assert any question about elective abortion 25 weeks and prior is a non issue. There is no functioning brain at that point yet, so we're not even talking about a human being. Life and alive, yes, human, yes, but not a human being.

Kate Cox was not an elective case. The fetus was not viable. The problem is that the third term abortion laws are written as if women are aborting fetuses for no medical cause - just electively because they don't want to carry to term. This is a faulty assumption and is working against women who desperately need third term abortions. (And frankly it is insulting to women and says a lot about what these anti-abortion legislators think of women. Or think of how they would handle the situation if it were themselves. Heh.)

This is the problem with the overwhelming vast majority of abortion laws. They aren't written for reality, they aren't written in line with medical science, they aren't written with the health of the mother in mind. They are written to stop abortion at all costs. That's all.

That's ignorant and is proving to be very dangerous for women. And society.

Greater efforts are needed for sound education of people, society, and people in power especially.

 

[Lazaran]

Opinions as well. That's why I assert any question about elective abortion 25 weeks and prior is a non issue. There is no functioning brain at that point yet, so we're not even talking about a human being. Life and alive, yes, human, yes, but not a human being.

Meanwhile:

TaintyFuckBoi supports the rapey, racist, misogynistic, corrupt orange traitor, who specifically selected "justices" for the SCOTUS who would overturn Roe.



TaintyFuckBoi

 

[Sean Renaud]

This still means any ban of elective third term abortions will infringe on no one, correct?

A law that doesn't affect anybody is a waste of time. Honestly we should be going over the books and erasing laws that don't make sense in the modern era. I am 100% certain if we started going over the laws there is some 1879 law about where and how you have to dispose of a horse corpse.

 

[TastySuckToy]

A law that doesn't affect anybody is a waste of time. Honestly we should be going over the books and erasing laws that don't make sense in the modern era. I am 100% certain if we started going over the laws there is some 1879 law about where and how you have to dispose of a horse corpse.

I agree with this.

 

[adrina]

Meanwhile:

TaintyFuckBoi supports the rapey, racist, misogynistic, corrupt orange traitor, who specifically selected "justices" for the SCOTUS who would overturn Roe.



TaintyFuckBoi

Correct. He does. However it is very rare to see any republican/conservative/trumper speak with any kind of intelligence regarding abortion.

The sad thing is that he is one among many who sacrifice various issues - things like abortion etc - to things they view as "more important".