closed Thread

[Purple_Fronds]

But the point isn't that the Allies should have started a war earlier. The point is that they weakened their position in the eventual war by indulging in the fallacy and arguably the hubris that they could resolve the matter with diplomacy. Hitler had already laid out very clearly his feelings about the injustices done to Germany and the premise that the Germans needed "living space to the east". There is an old saying something along the lines of "when someone tells you who they are you should listen." Even if they did play along in the negotiations or even cling to the hope that they would work, the Allies should have been aggressively planning for the eventuality of war on the basis that Hitler would not be appeased. Some of that was going on but not nearly at the level that he was planning for war otherwise we wouldn't have been scrambling to ramp up military production while under attack while he was sitting on a giant war machine built up and ready to go.

My point is stronger than them playing along, the British needed the time more than Germany and Italy, how would they attack, the axis air forces were twice the size of Britain and more experienced from the Spanish civil war. Stalin and Russia is a similar story, but of course Stalin was also opportunistic and decided to do his own conquest against Finland. The Finnish conflict also showed how weak the Russian army was, not to mention that they would have had to step through Poland to get to them. I believe there’s a misconception that somehow during the time that nobody had read, understood or believed Hitler was serious about what he wrote, I don’t think this is true. I do think that the pure level of evil that Hitler and his followers were, was not taken to heart or for that matter his writing was clearly a call for genocide of an entire people. The question is still what should have been done about it, maybe this is where assassination early in his rise would have been acceptable but obviously comes with the benefit of hindsight.

In terms of Hamas, absolutely they are abhorrent and in their current state will never negotiate faithfully with Israel, or for that matter will the other organizations that also carried out the attack. However the way Israel is continuing to pursue its offensive with the level of bombing and ground operations, they are systematically bolstering these same organizations with new recruits and sympathizers, essentially pushing the entire population of Gaza further to the extreme.

Israel can’t afford to go back to occupying, where they will be constantly bled through gorilla actions, or take on the financial cost. No international organization will want to take on the responsibility and other countries will not want to put their people in jeopardy. Israel won’t cede it back to Egypt, nor do I think Egypt would want it. Of course they can’t just incorporate the territory because either they become an obvious apartheid state or run the risk of ceasing to being a Jewish state. The least worse situation would probably to be to attempt to help the Palestinian Authority reestablish their presence and provide enough support both financially (they would probably get some help from other countries) and militarily to make them a force. Of course this is also problematic because of how bad the relationship has deteriorated in the West Bank and the risk the PA has of being perceived as a stooge. In short i think we can be both horrified for and sympathetic to the majority of innocent people on both sides of the conflict, and at some point what is and isn’t justified is irrelevant. At some point Israel will have to start figuring out what’s next and what Hamas says and does is irrelevant.

 

[policywank]

My point is stronger than them playing along, the British needed the time more than Germany and Italy, how would they attack, the axis air forces were twice the size of Britain and more experienced from the Spanish civil war. Stalin and Russia is a similar story, but of course Stalin was also opportunistic and decided to do his own conquest against Finland. The Finnish conflict also showed how weak the Russian army was, not to mention that they would have had to step through Poland to get to them. I believe there’s a misconception that somehow during the time that nobody had read, understood or believed Hitler was serious about what he wrote, I don’t think this is true. I do think that the pure level of evil that Hitler and his followers were, was not taken to heart or for that matter his writing was clearly a call for genocide of an entire people. The question is still what should have been done about it, maybe this is where assassination early in his rise would have been acceptable but obviously comes with the benefit of hindsight.

In terms of Hamas, absolutely they are abhorrent and in their current state will never negotiate faithfully with Israel, or for that matter will the other organizations that also carried out the attack. However the way Israel is continuing to pursue its offensive with the level of bombing and ground operations, they are systematically bolstering these same organizations with new recruits and sympathizers, essentially pushing the entire population of Gaza further to the extreme.

Israel can’t afford to go back to occupying, where they will be constantly bled through gorilla actions, or take on the financial cost. No international organization will want to take on the responsibility and other countries will not want to put their people in jeopardy. Israel won’t cede it back to Egypt, nor do I think Egypt would want it. Of course they can’t just incorporate the territory because either they become an obvious apartheid state or run the risk of ceasing to being a Jewish state. The least worse situation would probably to be to attempt to help the Palestinian Authority reestablish their presence and provide enough support both financially (they would probably get some help from other countries) and militarily to make them a force. Of course this is also problematic because of how bad the relationship has deteriorated in the West Bank and the risk the PA has of being perceived as a stooge. In short i think we can be both horrified for and sympathetic to the majority of innocent people on both sides of the conflict, and at some point what is and isn’t justified is irrelevant. At some point Israel will have to start figuring out what’s next and what Hamas says and does is irrelevant.

There is a good article in the most recent Economist on this matter that suggests a series of steps. It involves multiple parties including an important role for Saudi Arabia.

Again my point isn’t what specific action Israel should take or that the Allies should have taken with Hitler, but rather that they need to be seen for what they are. I think that the history shows that some people saw Hitler for the evil that he was and others didn’t. And for a period of time those that did not see it or want to see it carried the day. If nothing else knowing the truth in retrospect it would have been better to pursue strategies that recognized reality as it was with no equivocation. That may have only led to a focus on arming up - instead on convincing the British that they could negotiate a “lasting peace” they needed a politician telling them it isn’t going to happen so let’s get prepared.

Likewise today focussing mostly on casualties in Gaza is sort of brushing aside the threat of Hamas. Much of the world is saying “stop shooting and we will sort that out later.” The logical response of many Israelis is that is bullshit. Every effort at peace with Hamas has failed and they use it as a ruse to rearm. Anybody who doesn’t make it clear that they get how big of a threat Hamas or pretends they are just a resistance group and doesn’t clearly acknowledge the need to address that has no credibility.

We can debate all day along about how much the Allies did or ought to have known about Hitler and whether peace was possible. No such historical uncertainty exists with Hamas.

 

[ll74]

There is a good article in the most recent Economist on this matter that suggests a series of steps. It involves multiple parties including an important role for Saudi Arabia.

Again my point isn’t what specific action Israel should take or that the Allies should have taken with Hitler, but rather that they need to be seen for what they are. I think that the history shows that some people saw Hitler for the evil that he was and others didn’t. And for a period of time those that did not see it or want to see it carried the day. If nothing else knowing the truth in retrospect it would have been better to pursue strategies that recognized reality as it was with no equivocation. That may have only led to a focus on arming up - instead on convincing the British that they could negotiate a “lasting peace” they needed a politician telling them it isn’t going to happen so let’s get prepared.

Likewise today focussing mostly on casualties in Gaza is sort of brushing aside the threat of Hamas. Much of the world is saying “stop shooting and we will sort that out later.” The logical response of many Israelis is that is bullshit. Every effort at peace with Hamas has failed and they use it as a ruse to rearm. Anybody who doesn’t make it clear that they get how big of a threat Hamas or pretends they are just a resistance group and doesn’t clearly acknowledge the need to address that has no credibility.

We can debate all day along about how much the Allies did or ought to have known about Hitler and whether peace was possible. No such historical uncertainty exists with Hamas.

You're spot on. What Israel needs to do right now is find alignment from political leaders in the middle east that can help lead Palestinians towards peace and away from the leadership of Hamas.

And they should do so behind the scenes.

But current leadership in Israel won't. They need to be kicked to the curb

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

Can I offer up an alternate view?

I have volunteered to helps affected families in my local community in London. They are Jewish and Palestinian among them.

Every Jewish-Israeli family I have supported is going through real trauma and asking real questions of their country and its politics. Virtually no one this side of the pond I have spoken to supports Israel’s current actions.

Every Palestinian family I have spoken to has lost somewhere between 100-250 people In Gaza (and some do overlap between groups) and causes of death range from can’t be confirmed due to damage, to shot, blown up, bled to death, crushed, starved and more.

Gaza is 25 miles long at its longest and 5 miles wide at its narrowest.

More bombs have been dropped on Gaza by Israel in four months than were dropped on the whole of Germany for the bombing campaign in the first six months of the British Bombing campaign in 1943, and that included deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure by way of various sorties including attacks on the dams of Germany. These stats, by the way, may be out of date as they only go up to December 31st last year and we are now another month on.

Gaza had Hamas fighters, certainly - Around 30,000 of them. It has, however, no formal military, no tanks, no anti-aircraft batteries. The airport was destroyed by Israel who have never let it be rebuilt. They have no navy, weaponry is smuggled in and largely consists of kit parts to build arsenals of make shift weaponry.

We are not talking about balanced odds or even in balanced odds between two countries with armies. We are talking the equivalent of an entire country and its whole military literally flattening a neighbouring country with barely a scratch on the majority of its infantry, machinery, air force and more.

I am a historian in my day job and I pay close attention to evidence, and I ask all of the relevant questions such as, can we trust the source, has this been faked, why is this important, and so on and so forth.

So I read the ICJ ruling with a lot of trepidation because my experience talking to people in the UK who have links to this is confirming my greatest fear, which is that the US and UK by way of support, are invested in an actual genocide in the 21st century.

If you read the Geneva convention and the genocide act, and you then look at the total death toll, and the mass forced movements of a population of 2.3 million around a tiny portion of land, the proportion of deaths that are in fact due to causes other than bombs and guns (such as cutting off of water to the entire population, and massive restrictions in aid getting in) you see a horror story emerging.

Throw in the deliberate destruction of virtually all places of worship (specifically Muslim and Christian places of worship, including the third oldest church in Christiandom), all medical facilities, all schools and now 45% of all housing in the whole of the strip, together with deliberate destruction of fertile land used for farming, pumping sewage into Hamas’ tunnels by using aquifers (which has now polluted them, likely, forever) and the whole approach taken by Israel is in question.

I suspect that South Africa are on the right side of history and when we all look back on this in ten years time (if we're all still here) we will be horrified at how little was done to stop this, how much was done to support this, no how portions of our world we live in managed to get caught up in a truly horrifying part of our shared history.

If the above is scary on its own, I haven’t even touched the genuinely genocidal rhetoric coming out of Israel every single day and being shared thousands of time a second over its social media by people in power and supporting what can only be described as one of the most harrowing things we have all witnessed in real time.

In short - Hamas, bad, undoubtedly. But Israel’s response has been violently disproportionate and that is why the ICJ ruling last week was so damning, in addition to other things around this.

I say all of this with a heavy heart as I have Jewish and Arab friends and all of this is weighing so heavily on them.

No one here, I hope, thinks that 11,000 children deserved to die since 7 October 2023 in Gaza.

We all bleed the same way and not enough is being done to lower temperatures, drop weapons, find common ground and above all else stop the killing.

Forgive me for this, but I have really struggled with my humanity of late, doing what I can behind the scenes as a volunteer, and not speaking publicly anyway. Until now. For whatever good it does.

 

[silky52]

I would say Israel IS trying to get the hostages back with their all out retaliation approach, while simultaneously NOT capitulating in any significant way to the Hamas animals.

The all out retaliation approach obviously played a large part in the initial hostage release, and it may well yield results a second time.

I also believe it’s finally dawning on the Hamas animals and the Palestinian "civilians" that October 7th was a victory in reverse.

*nods*

It's like talking to the wall. Everything I say II74 disagrees with!

Hamas-ISIS and the Gazan civilians are playing stupid games as usual regarding the hostages. Of course HI has been torturing Gazan civilians too with not allowing them the humanitarian aid that they so desperately need.

I really feel that at least 50% of the hostages are dead. How on earth can babies and small children survive in tunnels with no food, no light, and no hygiene? How can the elderly survive without their medication, food and light? Antisemitism is rife and has shown its ugly head yet again. If anyone thinks this war is about land they are wrong it is most certainly about religion.

There is no other way other than all out war, I would beg to differ that it is retaliation, and if it is, there was absolutely no choice in the matter.

 

[Lazaran]

It's like talking to the wall. Everything I say II74 disagrees with!

Hamas-ISIS and the Gazan civilians are playing stupid games as usual regarding the hostages. Of course HI has been torturing Gazan civilians too with not allowing them the humanitarian aid that they so desperately need.

I really feel that at least 50% of the hostages are dead. How on earth can babies and small children survive in tunnels with no food, no light, and no hygiene? How can the elderly survive without their medication, food and light? Antisemitism is rife and has shown its ugly head yet again. If anyone thinks this war is about land they are wrong it is most certainly about religion.

There is no other way other than all out war, I would beg to differ that it is retaliation, and if it is, there was absolutely no choice in the matter.

•
You could be right about the number of dead hostages.

Although, one of the released hostages said she and her kids were held above ground in a "civillian” residence. And some medication has been delivered to Gaza.

•
The “retaliation” by Israel isn’t a criticism from this quarter.

The only time “retaliation” is a bad thing, is when it is based on a unjust premise, and is executed in a barbaric fashion. See: The Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation that SOME claim was a just and justified act of "retaliation".

 

[silky52]

•
You could be right about the number of dead hostages.

Although, one of the released hostages said she and her kids were held above ground in a "civillian” residence. And some medication has been delivered to Gaza.

•
The “retaliation” by Israel isn’t a criticism from this quarter.

The only time “retaliation” is a bad thing, is when it is based on a unjust premise, and is executed in a barbaric fashion. See: The Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation that SOME claim was a just and justified act of "retaliation".

Although, one of the released hostages said she and her kids were held above ground in a "civillian” residence. And some medication has been delivered to Gaza.

They were moved to the tunnels afterwards. The wife was jealous because the husband kept giving her the 'eye'!

Israel has NO confirmation that the hostages received the medication was delivered to the hostages, although it was delivered to Gaza, it is thought widely that HI confiscates it and does not distribute it to those in need, they keep it for themselves!! B---sts and they don't give it to the Gazan civilians either!

 

[ll74]

Can I offer up an alternate view?

I have volunteered to helps affected families in my local community in London. They are Jewish and Palestinian among them.

Every Jewish-Israeli family I have supported is going through real trauma and asking real questions of their country and its politics. Virtually no one this side of the pond I have spoken to supports Israel’s current actions.

Every Palestinian family I have spoken to has lost somewhere between 100-250 people In Gaza (and some do overlap between groups) and causes of death range from can’t be confirmed due to damage, to shot, blown up, bled to death, crushed, starved and more.

Gaza is 25 miles long at its longest and 5 miles wide at its narrowest.

More bombs have been dropped on Gaza by Israel in four months than were dropped on the whole of Germany for the bombing campaign in the first six months of the British Bombing campaign in 1943, and that included deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure by way of various sorties including attacks on the dams of Germany. These stats, by the way, may be out of date as they only go up to December 31st last year and we are now another month on.

Gaza had Hamas fighters, certainly - Around 30,000 of them. It has, however, no formal military, no tanks, no anti-aircraft batteries. The airport was destroyed by Israel who have never let it be rebuilt. They have no navy, weaponry is smuggled in and largely consists of kit parts to build arsenals of make shift weaponry.

We are not talking about balanced odds or even in balanced odds between two countries with armies. We are talking the equivalent of an entire country and its whole military literally flattening a neighbouring country with barely a scratch on the majority of its infantry, machinery, air force and more.

I am a historian in my day job and I pay close attention to evidence, and I ask all of the relevant questions such as, can we trust the source, has this been faked, why is this important, and so on and so forth.

So I read the ICJ ruling with a lot of trepidation because my experience talking to people in the UK who have links to this is confirming my greatest fear, which is that the US and UK by way of support, are invested in an actual genocide in the 21st century.

If you read the Geneva convention and the genocide act, and you then look at the total death toll, and the mass forced movements of a population of 2.3 million around a tiny portion of land, the proportion of deaths that are in fact due to causes other than bombs and guns (such as cutting off of water to the entire population, and massive restrictions in aid getting in) you see a horror story emerging.

Throw in the deliberate destruction of virtually all places of worship (specifically Muslim and Christian places of worship, including the third oldest church in Christiandom), all medical facilities, all schools and now 45% of all housing in the whole of the strip, together with deliberate destruction of fertile land used for farming, pumping sewage into Hamas’ tunnels by using aquifers (which has now polluted them, likely, forever) and the whole approach taken by Israel is in question.

I suspect that South Africa are on the right side of history and when we all look back on this in ten years time (if we're all still here) we will be horrified at how little was done to stop this, how much was done to support this, no how portions of our world we live in managed to get caught up in a truly horrifying part of our shared history.

If the above is scary on its own, I haven’t even touched the genuinely genocidal rhetoric coming out of Israel every single day and being shared thousands of time a second over its social media by people in power and supporting what can only be described as one of the most harrowing things we have all witnessed in real time.

In short - Hamas, bad, undoubtedly. But Israel’s response has been violently disproportionate and that is why the ICJ ruling last week was so damning, in addition to other things around this.

I say all of this with a heavy heart as I have Jewish and Arab friends and all of this is weighing so heavily on them.

No one here, I hope, thinks that 11,000 children deserved to die since 7 October 2023 in Gaza.

We all bleed the same way and not enough is being done to lower temperatures, drop weapons, find common ground and above all else stop the killing.

Forgive me for this, but I have really struggled with my humanity of late, doing what I can behind the scenes as a volunteer, and not speaking publicly anyway. Until now. For whatever good it does.

Thanks for your perspective

 

[Lazaran]

Although, one of the released hostages said she and her kids were held above ground in a "civillian” residence. And some medication has been delivered to Gaza.

They were moved to the tunnels afterwards. The wife was jealous because the husband kept giving her the 'eye'!

Israel has NO confirmation that the hostages received the medication was delivered to the hostages, although it was delivered to Gaza, it is thought widely that HI confiscates it and does not distribute it to those in need, they keep it for themselves!! B---sts and they don't give it to the Gazan civilians either!

I would just offer the option / possibility of hope.

Don’t abandon hope for the hostages.

People without hope are usually dangerous.AND doomed.

Keep the faith, friend.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

It's like talking to the wall. Everything I say II74 disagrees with!

Hamas-ISIS and the Gazan civilians are playing stupid games as usual regarding the hostages. Of course HI has been torturing Gazan civilians too with not allowing them the humanitarian aid that they so desperately need.

I really feel that at least 50% of the hostages are dead. How on earth can babies and small children survive in tunnels with no food, no light, and no hygiene? How can the elderly survive without their medication, food and light? Antisemitism is rife and has shown its ugly head yet again. If anyone thinks this war is about land they are wrong it is most certainly about religion.

There is no other way other than all out war, I would beg to differ that it is retaliation, and if it is, there was absolutely no choice in the matter.

Just out of interest, do the nearly 30,000 dead Palestinians not factor into any of the thinking here? Or the 2.3 million starving, literally, to death?

Everyone agrees the hostages need to be released. What is the ultimate fate for the Gazans?

For the Palestinians it most definitely is not about religion, it absolutely is about land.

I’ve personally not heard one antisemitic comment or Islamophobic comment when I’ve done my rounds in London round the various communities affected.

 

[ll74]

Thanks for your perspective

Hey @silky52 , I said the same thing to you after your first opinion comment..
And then all you e truly done since is offered biased perspective based on limited sources while telling me I'm believing propaganda.

Sorry about that

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

It’s been reported this morning by France24 news that 1.9 million Palestinians are now crammed into an area just 65 square kilometres wide, making this the most populous place per square kilometre on earth, which also includes no medical facilities, no sanitation, no running water, limited food and aid getting in.

Does this sound like attacking Hamas or collective punishment of everyone?

I have watched the rhetoric across the last four months ramping up from Israeli politicians and it is frightening. Proper shades of 1930s Germany, which I am familiar with by study.

 

[Purple_Fronds]

Can I offer up an alternate view?

I have volunteered to helps affected families in my local community in London. They are Jewish and Palestinian among them.

Every Jewish-Israeli family I have supported is going through real trauma and asking real questions of their country and its politics. Virtually no one this side of the pond I have spoken to supports Israel’s current actions.

Every Palestinian family I have spoken to has lost somewhere between 100-250 people In Gaza (and some do overlap between groups) and causes of death range from can’t be confirmed due to damage, to shot, blown up, bled to death, crushed, starved and more.

Gaza is 25 miles long at its longest and 5 miles wide at its narrowest.

More bombs have been dropped on Gaza by Israel in four months than were dropped on the whole of Germany for the bombing campaign in the first six months of the British Bombing campaign in 1943, and that included deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure by way of various sorties including attacks on the dams of Germany. These stats, by the way, may be out of date as they only go up to December 31st last year and we are now another month on.

Gaza had Hamas fighters, certainly - Around 30,000 of them. It has, however, no formal military, no tanks, no anti-aircraft batteries. The airport was destroyed by Israel who have never let it be rebuilt. They have no navy, weaponry is smuggled in and largely consists of kit parts to build arsenals of make shift weaponry.

We are not talking about balanced odds or even in balanced odds between two countries with armies. We are talking the equivalent of an entire country and its whole military literally flattening a neighbouring country with barely a scratch on the majority of its infantry, machinery, air force and more.

I am a historian in my day job and I pay close attention to evidence, and I ask all of the relevant questions such as, can we trust the source, has this been faked, why is this important, and so on and so forth.

So I read the ICJ ruling with a lot of trepidation because my experience talking to people in the UK who have links to this is confirming my greatest fear, which is that the US and UK by way of support, are invested in an actual genocide in the 21st century.

If you read the Geneva convention and the genocide act, and you then look at the total death toll, and the mass forced movements of a population of 2.3 million around a tiny portion of land, the proportion of deaths that are in fact due to causes other than bombs and guns (such as cutting off of water to the entire population, and massive restrictions in aid getting in) you see a horror story emerging.

Throw in the deliberate destruction of virtually all places of worship (specifically Muslim and Christian places of worship, including the third oldest church in Christiandom), all medical facilities, all schools and now 45% of all housing in the whole of the strip, together with deliberate destruction of fertile land used for farming, pumping sewage into Hamas’ tunnels by using aquifers (which has now polluted them, likely, forever) and the whole approach taken by Israel is in question.

I suspect that South Africa are on the right side of history and when we all look back on this in ten years time (if we're all still here) we will be horrified at how little was done to stop this, how much was done to support this, no how portions of our world we live in managed to get caught up in a truly horrifying part of our shared history.

If the above is scary on its own, I haven’t even touched the genuinely genocidal rhetoric coming out of Israel every single day and being shared thousands of time a second over its social media by people in power and supporting what can only be described as one of the most harrowing things we have all witnessed in real time.

In short - Hamas, bad, undoubtedly. But Israel’s response has been violently disproportionate and that is why the ICJ ruling last week was so damning, in addition to other things around this.

I say all of this with a heavy heart as I have Jewish and Arab friends and all of this is weighing so heavily on them.

No one here, I hope, thinks that 11,000 children deserved to die since 7 October 2023 in Gaza.

We all bleed the same way and not enough is being done to lower temperatures, drop weapons, find common ground and above all else stop the killing.

Forgive me for this, but I have really struggled with my humanity of late, doing what I can behind the scenes as a volunteer, and not speaking publicly anyway. Until now. For whatever good it does.

I appreciate what you said and I feel the anguish in your words, which I know is reflected by both communities. Unfortunately it’s still not clear what a solution might look like and as others have said, it’s unlikely to end with Hamas intact.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

I appreciate what you said and I feel the anguish in your words, which I know is reflected by both communities. Unfortunately it’s still not clear what a solution might look like and as others have said, it’s unlikely to end with Hamas intact.

Putting my cards on the table, when you combine what is happening with Gaza with what is happening in the West Bank, the outcome is looking obvious and it looks bad for the Palestinians by way of their livelihoods, and bad for Israel because while you have Israeli politicians going to conferences on “re-settling Gaza” and declaring on Twitter/X that the Palestinians should take “voluntary migration” (no such thing), you are left with an outcome which is a genocide created for the specific purposes of taking land.

What I can’t get my head round is how dismissive some have been of the obvious suffering that is happening.

If I may be so bold, those claiming this is about religion are saying this without any evidence. All evidence points towards a militant group in Gaza and a far right government in Israel clashing with the worst possible consequences for everyone.

I personally think it is unhelpful to claim religion is the issue here when every single day you can go and look at Israeli news channels and see that it is not.

 

[Purple_Fronds]

There is a good article in the most recent Economist on this matter that suggests a series of steps. It involves multiple parties including an important role for Saudi Arabia.

Agreed it was a good article thanks for the recommendation, unfortunately it still seems quite slim in terms of probability. It also doesn‘t address the boots on the ground (non IDF) problem that is essential for everybody’s security.

No such historical uncertainty exists with Hamas.

I agree with this as well, but they‘ve been the de facto power there for a long time.

I confess I’m still unsure what the Hamas leaderships objective was. I don’t believe that they’re stupid and I don’t think anybody is surprised by Israel’s response. I have to think that this is what they both expected and wanted, I just don’t fully know why. I have a few ideas and maybe I’m giving their intelligence too much credit. They might have thought taking hostages would protect them, which seems crazy but other than that I can only think that they wanted to finally go “all in” in order to shift the status quo decisively and for good.

 

[Bray123]

Gaza is the size of Drummond Island, Lake Huron (pop. 973).
Gaza has a population (shrinking constantly due to bombings) of 600K, about the same as Detroit (also, similar land area)
Gaza has no organized army, no weapons that cannot be carried by hand, no water or food or fuel supplies beyond a couple of small trucks a day.

Doctors in Gaza are performing 10 limb amputations on children per day, without any anaesthetics.

Since Israel was established and the Palestinians were evicted from their ancestral homes to make room for the new nation (because it would have been unfair to do that to like, Germans), Israel have relentlessly expanded their borders by force so that the Palestinians no longer have a homeland or any recognized right to exist.

Every government of Palestine since 1949 has been declared 'terrorist' so that's OK then. It's all the fault of Hamas.

 

[silky52]

I would just offer the option / possibility of hope.

Don’t abandon hope for the hostages.

People without hope are usually dangerous.AND doomed.

Keep the faith, friend.

I'm truly not giving up hope, just being realistic.

My son complained that they were brought up to believe in PEACE, and it's achievability. When he said that, I said that one must always strive for PEACE that is the only hope we have.

Everytime we are in a restaurant or out for a coffee, or even in our home I always say, "Those poor hostages are sitting in a tunnel, and here we are free." It is so unbelievably sad, and the world is so full of antisemitism. Just look at that posters above. All blatant antisemites, who don't only blame Israel for defending itself, but are also incredibly ignorant of the actual facts. Most seem to depend on the Hamas-ISIS propaganda that is well distributed around the western world.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

All blatant antisemites, who don't only blame Israel for defending itself, but are also incredibly ignorant of the actual facts. Most seem to depend on the Hamas-ISIS propaganda that is well distributed around the western world.

I appreciate you are from Israel and you have strong views, but having concern for the fate of the Palestinians in Gaza and the Israeli hostages is not being antisemitic: but human.

Having concerns over Israel’s bombardment of Gaza is not antisemitic: it’s what all nations should do, scrutinise each other to ensure high standards of practice.

People’s lives are at stake on all sides. Trying to obfuscate the truth with unfounded accusations is unhelpful at best.

I am going to withdraw from responding to you directly after this, with respect, as I do not believe it will be helpful to my mental health.

I pray for peace with all peoples able to live in harmony.

 

[ShandyLeer]

Putting my cards on the table, when you combine what is happening with Gaza with what is happening in the West Bank, the outcome is looking obvious and it looks bad for the Palestinians by way of their livelihoods, and bad for Israel because while you have Israeli politicians going to conferences on “re-settling Gaza” and declaring on Twitter/X that the Palestinians should take “voluntary migration” (no such thing), you are left with an outcome which is a genocide created for the specific purposes of taking land.

What I can’t get my head round is how dismissive some have been of the obvious suffering that is happening.

If I may be so bold, those claiming this is about religion are saying this without any evidence. All evidence points towards a militant group in Gaza and a far right government in Israel clashing with the worst possible consequences for everyone.

I personally think it is unhelpful to claim religion is the issue here when every single day you can go and look at Israeli news channels and see that it is not.

Absolutely appreciate your take on this and the horror show going on.

But TV channels and Twitter respond to the events, they’re just a mirror and a soap box for a conflict driven, like always, by hatred rooted in religion. It’s always “the men of God”, the messianics and the fundamentalists that have fucked the chanced of peace here.

The dismissal of a 2 state solution, sabre rattling about resettling Gaza are provocations, but they‘re harsh words in response to an atrocity, a 9/11. What else can you expect in the aftermath ? But this Israeli government won’t always be the Israeli government and circumstance and possibilities will change.

Blaming media and politicians talking a hard line for their base, whilst excusing religion is like blaming the wall for the graffiti someone just sprayed on it,

 

[policywank]

You're spot on. What Israel needs to do right now is find alignment from political leaders in the middle east that can help lead Palestinians towards peace and away from the leadership of Hamas.

And they should do so behind the scenes.

But current leadership in Israel won't. They need to be kicked to the curb

Agreed it was a good article thanks for the recommendation, unfortunately it still seems quite slim in terms of probability. It also doesn‘t address the boots on the ground (non IDF) problem that is essential for everybody’s security.

I agree with this as well, but they‘ve been the de facto power there for a long time.

I confess I’m still unsure what the Hamas leaderships objective was. I don’t believe that they’re stupid and I don’t think anybody is surprised by Israel’s response. I have to think that this is what they both expected and wanted, I just don’t fully know why. I have a few ideas and maybe I’m giving their intelligence too much credit. They might have thought taking hostages would protect them, which seems crazy but other than that I can only think that they wanted to finally go “all in” in order to shift the status quo decisively and for good.

What appealed to me about that article is that it at least tried to address all of the key factors at play. Some of the suggestions are arguably not realistic. But they didn't try to create/impose a hierarchy of priorities or dismiss one side or the other.

For instance, I believe that security is the overriding consideration for Israel. Aside from Hamas literally all of their neighbours are countries that are openly hostile towards them or nominally neutral but would not lift a finger to help them. Does that justify their current actions or convince me that their current actions are a realistic pathway to security? No, but it is obviously a factor for them as it would be for any nation in their position.

Their neighbours along with countries all over the world are piling on to criticize their actions, yet will not say a word about their legitimate security concerns. What does that tell us? Isn't it obvious that mitigating those security concerns would give the critics more credibility and represent a powerful lever to get Israel to back off? If Saudi Arabia would step up to the Abrahamic Accords that would go a long way.

Likewise, I question whether Netanyahu wants peace. I think that he has aims that would be very detrimental to the Palestinians and their desire for a nation. But the article asserted that getting rid of him needed to go hand in hand with getting rid of his Hamas counter part.

 

[Rightguide]

Satellite imagery shows Israel Offense Force destroying anything that lives and any building that stands within one km of Israeli-Gaza border.
We continue to watch Israeli genocide in real time.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1753463687480828035

It's getting close to the time for you to spit-shine your hobnailed boots and reverently unfold and put on your swastika armband.

 

[RobDownSouth]

It's getting close to the time for you to spit-shine your hobnailed boots and reverently unfold and put on your swastika armband.

Today's Israelis may still revile Adolf Hitler as a man, but they embrace his genocidal tactics against "subhumans" with a near-religious fervor.
See also: Lebensraum.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Today's Israelis may still revile Adolf Hitler as a man, but they embrace his genocidal tactics against "subhumans" with a near-religious fervor.
See also: Lebensraum.

What’s happening in Gaza isn’t a “genocide”.

 

[RobDownSouth]

What’s happening in Gaza isn’t a “genocide”.

I strongly disagree with you.
In my opinion, the country of Israel is now pursuing a textbook case of genocide.
They are undertaking 'ethnic cleansing'.

The people of Israel have embraced something they once abhorred.
https://i.imgur.com/HCEZtwC.png

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

What’s happening in Gaza isn’t a “genocide”.

I’m afraid the ICJ ruling and the South Africa submission are pretty clear: it meets 4/5 criteria under the genocide convention.

It is not possible to declare it is not a genocide, unless you ignore all of the evidence.

You would have to ignore:

1. Cutting off water
2. Preventing aid from getting in
3. Wholesale destruction of civilian architecture
4. Damaging waterways and environment to prevent future use
5. Damage to whole or part of the population
6. Forced displacement (now 95% of the population)
7. Genocidal intent from people in power (ample evidence)

These are just the headliners, let alone the use of 2000lb bombs indiscriminately, use of phosphorous weaponry, snipers hitting civilians, etc etc

The only way Gaza is not a genocide is if it didn’t happen in the first place.

“Self defence” is not a legal defence for genocidal intent or actions.