closed Thread

[ll74]

You have sympathy for

You don't know what you are talking about!

Yes, you continue to declare your authority on the topic and I continue to reject it

 

[silky52]

Yes, you continue to declare your authority on the topic and I continue to reject it

You are disputing facts. I am merely telling the facts! You are influenced by Hamas-ISIS, and their propaganda, which is exactly what HI love!

 

[ll74]

You are disputing facts. I am merely telling the facts! You are influenced by Hamas-ISIS, and their propaganda, which is exactly what HI love!

Have you been pushed out of your home and has your home been destroyed?

I am not influenced by propaganda. There are satellite photos clearly showing the devastation of Gaza.

I don't support Hamas....ive been clear about that from the very first post.

 

[silky52]

Have you been pushed out of your home and has your home been destroyed?

I am not influenced by propaganda. There are satellite photos clearly showing the devastation of Gaza.

I don't support Hamas....ive been clear about that from the very first post.

Why are you making this personal? Were I to send you a photo of the damage it has caused, you would try and compare it with the destroyed and devastated buildings in Gaza.

There are as I said 300,000 Israeli displaced. Their homes are damaged shattered some irreparable, some burned down by HI. IMHO you most certainly are singing the HI song for them! Of course there is devastation in Gaza, look at what they did to Israel. I'd like to see the US stand still and do nothing! Vietnam, 9/11, etc, etc.

Do you honestly believe that Israel would give her beautiful younger generation of soldiers up to war if they did not have to? Why would Israel destroy Gaza? It's not for fun believe me.

 

[ll74]

Why are you making this personal? Were I to send you a photo of the damage it has caused, you would try and compare it with the destroyed and devastated buildings in Gaza.

You're making this personal.

There are as I said 300,000 Israeli displaced. Their homes are damaged shattered some irreparable, some burned down by HI. IMHO you most certainly are singing the HI song for them! Of course there is devastation in Gaza, look at what they did to Israel. I'd like to see the US stand still and do nothing! Vietnam, 9/11, etc, etc.

There are millions of Palestinians displaced. All their homes are destroyed.

You seem to dismiss their plight and expect attention only on Israelis.

The Israeli displaced are the ones living in Gaza.

Do you honestly believe that Israel would give her beautiful younger generation of soldiers up to war if they did not have to? Why would Israel destroy Gaza? It's not for fun believe me.

You're missing the point, completely.

 

[ll74]

Why are you making this personal? Were I to send you a photo of the damage it has caused, you would try and compare it with the destroyed and devastated buildings in Gaza.

There are as I said 300,000 Israeli displaced. Their homes are damaged shattered some irreparable, some burned down by HI. IMHO you most certainly are singing the HI song for them! Of course there is devastation in Gaza, look at what they did to Israel. I'd like to see the US stand still and do nothing! Vietnam, 9/11, etc, etc.

Do you honestly believe that Israel would give her beautiful younger generation of soldiers up to war if they did not have to? Why would Israel destroy Gaza? It's not for fun believe me.

I asked you this before and you even replied - is the objective,that Israel has declared, reachable?

You answered no.

That, in itself, is my main complaint. An open ended war results in nothing but death and destruction. It helps no one.

And that is not a perspective that relies on propaganda from either camp....it's simple reason and logic.

 

[silky52]

There are millions of Palestinians displaced. All their homes are destroyed. ---

Not true. It's not millions it's less than a million.

You seem to dismiss their plight and expect attention only on Israelis.

If only!! You are missing the point that due to the Hamas-ISIS propaganda most of the attention is on the Gazans.

The Israeli displaced are the ones living in Gaza.

You have to be kidding?? No Israelis live in Gaza! Only the Gazans who are ruled by Hamas-ISIS live in Gaza. Israelis only live in Israel! Just shows you how much kool aid you have swallowed.

That, in itself, is my main complaint. An open ended war results in nothing but death and destruction. It helps no one.

And that is not a perspective that relies on propaganda from either camp....it's simple reason and logic.

So, what exactly would you do? There is no choice Israel is are fighting for their lives, don't you get that?

By the way, Israel is fighting on two fronts, both their north and southern borders. However, Mr. Biden has told them not to make too much of the northern border, otherwise......

 

[ll74]

There are millions of Palestinians displaced. All their homes are destroyed. ---

Not true. It's not millions it's less than a million.

Bullshit

You seem to dismiss their plight and expect attention only on Israelis.

If only!! You are missing the point that due to the Hamas-ISIS propaganda most of the attention is on the Gazans.

Incorrect.

The Israeli displaced are the ones living in Gaza.

You have to be kidding?? No Israelis live in Gaza! Only the Gazans who are ruled by Hamas-ISIS live in Gaza. Israelis only live in Israel! Just shows you how much kool aid you have swallowed.

Of course they don't. Which is why there are settlements in Gaza.

That, in itself, is my main complaint. An open ended war results in nothing but death and destruction. It helps no one.

And that is not a perspective that relies on propaganda from either camp....it's simple reason and logic.

So, what exactly would you do? There is no choice Israel is are fighting for their lives, don't you get that?

By the way, Israel is fighting on two fronts, both their north and southern borders. However, Mr. Biden has told them not to make too much of the northern border, otherwise......

I would seek out leadership that wants peace. I would force Hamas to accept defeat with pressure from the international community. I would negotiate with major players to force hostage release.

 

[ll74]

You're fucking blind woman

Satellite photos of Gaza, before and after relentless bombing by Israel

The estimated population of the Gaza Strip for 2023 was around 2.1 million people.

 

[silky52]

Bullshit
You are considering the numbers that Hamas-ISIS puts out!! No one actually knows how many there are evacuated or dead. The IDF has said that 10,000 HI are dead. They do not know how many are evacuated, and yes they were evacuated, asked to leave so that the IDF can deal with HI!!

Incorrect.
I can assure you I am correct.

Of course they don't. Which is why there are settlements in Gaza.

Oh, you are funny, please do your homework. ISRAELIS DO NOT LIVE IN GAZA!!!! THERE ARE NO SETTLEMENTS IN GAZA!!!

I would seek out leadership that wants peace. I would force Hamas to accept defeat with pressure from the international community. I would negotiate with major players to force hostage release.

Yes, the people of Israel may well seek new leadership, but not in the middle of a war. I'd like to see you tackle HI, and who do you think Israel is negotiating with now, the Chinese, or the Iranians perhaps??

Like I said, your knowledge is very lacking, I don't mean to offend, but what you say does not always make sense.

 

[ll74]

Yes, the people of Israel may well seek new leadership, but not in the middle of a war.

Why not?

I'd like to see you tackle HI, and who do you think Israel is negotiating with now, the Chinese, or the Iranians perhaps??

Qatar has been primarily the proxy negotiating party along with the UK and US. I'd like to see the UN get more involved as well and get the Palestinian Authority involved more.

Like I said, your knowledge is very lacking, I don't mean to offend, but what you say does not always make sense.

Awesome for you.
Your bias for Israel blinds you.

 

[okwhynot64]

This is the only thread I see.



I do not support the Israeli occupation.

Sincere question: Israel left Gaza in 2005. Exactly what are they occupying?

Unless you think the nation of Israel ITSELF is not deserving of the lands they inhabit now (in which case, I'd rather not debate as there will be no convincing you Israeli peoples were in that land long before Mohammed).

 

[silky52]

Why not?

Qatar has been primarily the proxy negotiating party along with the UK and US. I'd like to see the UN get more involved as well and get the Palestinian Authority involved more.


Awesome for you.
Your bias for Israel blinds you.

Why not? Because they have a majority in the knesset and it would take the government falling for elections to happen. In which case Yair Lapid (leader of the opposition) said that he would step in to uphold the government. It is absolutely imperative that Israel gets the hostages back NOW!!

Qatar has been primarily the proxy negotiating party along with the UK and US. I'd like to see the UN get more involved as well and get the Palestinian Authority involved more

Qatar are with Hamas-ISIS all the way. Otherwise the hostages would have been returned by now. Where do you think the leaders of HI live? They certainly don't live in Gaza with the Gazans! The UN are anti-semitic mostly Muslim and Arab supporters! Did you not see what UNRWA have done. They are the UN! The PA will be involved at the end of the war!! After the stop protecting HI!!

Awesome for you.
Your bias for Israel blinds you.

It does not blind me, I see everything, and I listen to Al Jazeera every morning, do you? I know what's going on believe me. Besides which my great grandparents families all died in the gas chambers, what would you expect me to be? I am a Jew and I will always be a Jew, and I will always defend MY people!!!

 

[ll74]

Why not? Because they have a majority in the knesset and it would take the government falling for elections to happen. In which case Yair Lapid (leader of the opposition) said that he would step in to uphold the government. It is absolutely imperative that Israel gets the hostages back NOW!!

They aren't trying to get the hostages back.

Qatar are with Hamas-ISIS all the way. Otherwise the hostages would have been returned by now. Where do you think the leaders of HI live? They certainly don't live in Gaza with the Gazans! The UN are anti-semitic mostly Muslim and Arab supporters! Did you not see what UNRWA have done. They are the UN! The PA will be involved at the end of the war!! After the stop protecting HI!!

Qatar is a somewhat neutral party and was pivotal in getting hostages back so far.

Awesome for you.
Your bias for Israel blinds you.

It does not blind me, I see everything, and I listen to Al Jazeera every morning, do you? I know what's going on believe me. Besides which my great grandparents families all died in the gas chambers, what would you expect me to be? I am a Jew and I will always be a Jew, and I will always defend MY people!!!

It does blind you.

I never listen or read al.jazeera.

I posted one source from there in this thread and even commented on how the information was not corroborated.

I find at least three sources of corroboration before sharing information.

 

[silky52]

They aren't trying to get the hostages back.


Qatar is a somewhat neutral party and was pivotal in getting hostages back so far.


It does blind you.

Qatar is a somewhat neutral party and was pivotal in getting hostages back so far.

Where do you get your information from? Qatar hates Jews. Hates Israelis, and is most certainly not neutral!!

They aren't trying to get the hostages back.

Who is they? If you are talking about the Israeli government, you are incorrect.


It most certainly does NOT blind me! Yes, I am for Israel, but I am not against Arabs I would love to be able to live with them in peace. There are so many Arabs here that live in Israel who are not like those that hate us!

 

[ll74]

It most certainly does NOT!

It does.....but keep thinking it doesn't.

 

[ll74]

Qatar is a somewhat neutral party and was pivotal in getting hostages back so far.

Where do you get your information from? Qatar hates Jews. Hates Israelis, and is most certainly not neutral!!

Specifically their negotiations have been neutral. The ceasefire did not give advantage to either party.

They aren't trying to get the hostages back.

Who is they? If you are talking about the Israeli government, you are incorrect.

Bullshit.

It most certainly does NOT blind me! Yes, I am for Israel, but I am not against Arabs I would love to be able to live with them in peace. There are so many Arabs here that live in Israel who are not like those that hate us!

It does blind you.

 

[Lazaran]

I would say Israel IS trying to get the hostages back with their all out retaliation approach, while simultaneously NOT capitulating in any significant way to the Hamas animals.

The all out retaliation approach obviously played a large part in the initial hostage release, and it may well yield results a second time.

I also believe it’s finally dawning on the Hamas animals and the Palestinian "civilians" that October 7th was a victory in reverse.

*nods*

 

[RobDownSouth]

Satellite imagery shows Israel Offense Force destroying anything that lives and any building that stands within one km of Israeli-Gaza border.
We continue to watch Israeli genocide in real time.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1753463687480828035

 

[Purple_Fronds]

But the point isn't that the Allies should have started a war earlier. The point is that they weakened their position in the eventual war by indulging in the fallacy and arguably the hubris that they could resolve the matter with diplomacy. Hitler had already laid out very clearly his feelings about the injustices done to Germany and the premise that the Germans needed "living space to the east". There is an old saying something along the lines of "when someone tells you who they are you should listen." Even if they did play along in the negotiations or even cling to the hope that they would work, the Allies should have been aggressively planning for the eventuality of war on the basis that Hitler would not be appeased. Some of that was going on but not nearly at the level that he was planning for war otherwise we wouldn't have been scrambling to ramp up military production while under attack while he was sitting on a giant war machine built up and ready to go.

My point is stronger than them playing along, the British needed the time more than Germany and Italy, how would they attack, the axis air forces were twice the size of Britain and more experienced from the Spanish civil war. Stalin and Russia is a similar story, but of course Stalin was also opportunistic and decided to do his own conquest against Finland. The Finnish conflict also showed how weak the Russian army was, not to mention that they would have had to step through Poland to get to them. I believe there’s a misconception that somehow during the time that nobody had read, understood or believed Hitler was serious about what he wrote, I don’t think this is true. I do think that the pure level of evil that Hitler and his followers were, was not taken to heart or for that matter his writing was clearly a call for genocide of an entire people. The question is still what should have been done about it, maybe this is where assassination early in his rise would have been acceptable but obviously comes with the benefit of hindsight.

In terms of Hamas, absolutely they are abhorrent and in their current state will never negotiate faithfully with Israel, or for that matter will the other organizations that also carried out the attack. However the way Israel is continuing to pursue its offensive with the level of bombing and ground operations, they are systematically bolstering these same organizations with new recruits and sympathizers, essentially pushing the entire population of Gaza further to the extreme.

Israel can’t afford to go back to occupying, where they will be constantly bled through gorilla actions, or take on the financial cost. No international organization will want to take on the responsibility and other countries will not want to put their people in jeopardy. Israel won’t cede it back to Egypt, nor do I think Egypt would want it. Of course they can’t just incorporate the territory because either they become an obvious apartheid state or run the risk of ceasing to being a Jewish state. The least worse situation would probably to be to attempt to help the Palestinian Authority reestablish their presence and provide enough support both financially (they would probably get some help from other countries) and militarily to make them a force. Of course this is also problematic because of how bad the relationship has deteriorated in the West Bank and the risk the PA has of being perceived as a stooge. In short i think we can be both horrified for and sympathetic to the majority of innocent people on both sides of the conflict, and at some point what is and isn’t justified is irrelevant. At some point Israel will have to start figuring out what’s next and what Hamas says and does is irrelevant.

 

[policywank]

My point is stronger than them playing along, the British needed the time more than Germany and Italy, how would they attack, the axis air forces were twice the size of Britain and more experienced from the Spanish civil war. Stalin and Russia is a similar story, but of course Stalin was also opportunistic and decided to do his own conquest against Finland. The Finnish conflict also showed how weak the Russian army was, not to mention that they would have had to step through Poland to get to them. I believe there’s a misconception that somehow during the time that nobody had read, understood or believed Hitler was serious about what he wrote, I don’t think this is true. I do think that the pure level of evil that Hitler and his followers were, was not taken to heart or for that matter his writing was clearly a call for genocide of an entire people. The question is still what should have been done about it, maybe this is where assassination early in his rise would have been acceptable but obviously comes with the benefit of hindsight.

In terms of Hamas, absolutely they are abhorrent and in their current state will never negotiate faithfully with Israel, or for that matter will the other organizations that also carried out the attack. However the way Israel is continuing to pursue its offensive with the level of bombing and ground operations, they are systematically bolstering these same organizations with new recruits and sympathizers, essentially pushing the entire population of Gaza further to the extreme.

Israel can’t afford to go back to occupying, where they will be constantly bled through gorilla actions, or take on the financial cost. No international organization will want to take on the responsibility and other countries will not want to put their people in jeopardy. Israel won’t cede it back to Egypt, nor do I think Egypt would want it. Of course they can’t just incorporate the territory because either they become an obvious apartheid state or run the risk of ceasing to being a Jewish state. The least worse situation would probably to be to attempt to help the Palestinian Authority reestablish their presence and provide enough support both financially (they would probably get some help from other countries) and militarily to make them a force. Of course this is also problematic because of how bad the relationship has deteriorated in the West Bank and the risk the PA has of being perceived as a stooge. In short i think we can be both horrified for and sympathetic to the majority of innocent people on both sides of the conflict, and at some point what is and isn’t justified is irrelevant. At some point Israel will have to start figuring out what’s next and what Hamas says and does is irrelevant.

There is a good article in the most recent Economist on this matter that suggests a series of steps. It involves multiple parties including an important role for Saudi Arabia.

Again my point isn’t what specific action Israel should take or that the Allies should have taken with Hitler, but rather that they need to be seen for what they are. I think that the history shows that some people saw Hitler for the evil that he was and others didn’t. And for a period of time those that did not see it or want to see it carried the day. If nothing else knowing the truth in retrospect it would have been better to pursue strategies that recognized reality as it was with no equivocation. That may have only led to a focus on arming up - instead on convincing the British that they could negotiate a “lasting peace” they needed a politician telling them it isn’t going to happen so let’s get prepared.

Likewise today focussing mostly on casualties in Gaza is sort of brushing aside the threat of Hamas. Much of the world is saying “stop shooting and we will sort that out later.” The logical response of many Israelis is that is bullshit. Every effort at peace with Hamas has failed and they use it as a ruse to rearm. Anybody who doesn’t make it clear that they get how big of a threat Hamas or pretends they are just a resistance group and doesn’t clearly acknowledge the need to address that has no credibility.

We can debate all day along about how much the Allies did or ought to have known about Hitler and whether peace was possible. No such historical uncertainty exists with Hamas.

 

[ll74]

There is a good article in the most recent Economist on this matter that suggests a series of steps. It involves multiple parties including an important role for Saudi Arabia.

Again my point isn’t what specific action Israel should take or that the Allies should have taken with Hitler, but rather that they need to be seen for what they are. I think that the history shows that some people saw Hitler for the evil that he was and others didn’t. And for a period of time those that did not see it or want to see it carried the day. If nothing else knowing the truth in retrospect it would have been better to pursue strategies that recognized reality as it was with no equivocation. That may have only led to a focus on arming up - instead on convincing the British that they could negotiate a “lasting peace” they needed a politician telling them it isn’t going to happen so let’s get prepared.

Likewise today focussing mostly on casualties in Gaza is sort of brushing aside the threat of Hamas. Much of the world is saying “stop shooting and we will sort that out later.” The logical response of many Israelis is that is bullshit. Every effort at peace with Hamas has failed and they use it as a ruse to rearm. Anybody who doesn’t make it clear that they get how big of a threat Hamas or pretends they are just a resistance group and doesn’t clearly acknowledge the need to address that has no credibility.

We can debate all day along about how much the Allies did or ought to have known about Hitler and whether peace was possible. No such historical uncertainty exists with Hamas.

You're spot on. What Israel needs to do right now is find alignment from political leaders in the middle east that can help lead Palestinians towards peace and away from the leadership of Hamas.

And they should do so behind the scenes.

But current leadership in Israel won't. They need to be kicked to the curb

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

Can I offer up an alternate view?

I have volunteered to helps affected families in my local community in London. They are Jewish and Palestinian among them.

Every Jewish-Israeli family I have supported is going through real trauma and asking real questions of their country and its politics. Virtually no one this side of the pond I have spoken to supports Israel’s current actions.

Every Palestinian family I have spoken to has lost somewhere between 100-250 people In Gaza (and some do overlap between groups) and causes of death range from can’t be confirmed due to damage, to shot, blown up, bled to death, crushed, starved and more.

Gaza is 25 miles long at its longest and 5 miles wide at its narrowest.

More bombs have been dropped on Gaza by Israel in four months than were dropped on the whole of Germany for the bombing campaign in the first six months of the British Bombing campaign in 1943, and that included deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure by way of various sorties including attacks on the dams of Germany. These stats, by the way, may be out of date as they only go up to December 31st last year and we are now another month on.

Gaza had Hamas fighters, certainly - Around 30,000 of them. It has, however, no formal military, no tanks, no anti-aircraft batteries. The airport was destroyed by Israel who have never let it be rebuilt. They have no navy, weaponry is smuggled in and largely consists of kit parts to build arsenals of make shift weaponry.

We are not talking about balanced odds or even in balanced odds between two countries with armies. We are talking the equivalent of an entire country and its whole military literally flattening a neighbouring country with barely a scratch on the majority of its infantry, machinery, air force and more.

I am a historian in my day job and I pay close attention to evidence, and I ask all of the relevant questions such as, can we trust the source, has this been faked, why is this important, and so on and so forth.

So I read the ICJ ruling with a lot of trepidation because my experience talking to people in the UK who have links to this is confirming my greatest fear, which is that the US and UK by way of support, are invested in an actual genocide in the 21st century.

If you read the Geneva convention and the genocide act, and you then look at the total death toll, and the mass forced movements of a population of 2.3 million around a tiny portion of land, the proportion of deaths that are in fact due to causes other than bombs and guns (such as cutting off of water to the entire population, and massive restrictions in aid getting in) you see a horror story emerging.

Throw in the deliberate destruction of virtually all places of worship (specifically Muslim and Christian places of worship, including the third oldest church in Christiandom), all medical facilities, all schools and now 45% of all housing in the whole of the strip, together with deliberate destruction of fertile land used for farming, pumping sewage into Hamas’ tunnels by using aquifers (which has now polluted them, likely, forever) and the whole approach taken by Israel is in question.

I suspect that South Africa are on the right side of history and when we all look back on this in ten years time (if we're all still here) we will be horrified at how little was done to stop this, how much was done to support this, no how portions of our world we live in managed to get caught up in a truly horrifying part of our shared history.

If the above is scary on its own, I haven’t even touched the genuinely genocidal rhetoric coming out of Israel every single day and being shared thousands of time a second over its social media by people in power and supporting what can only be described as one of the most harrowing things we have all witnessed in real time.

In short - Hamas, bad, undoubtedly. But Israel’s response has been violently disproportionate and that is why the ICJ ruling last week was so damning, in addition to other things around this.

I say all of this with a heavy heart as I have Jewish and Arab friends and all of this is weighing so heavily on them.

No one here, I hope, thinks that 11,000 children deserved to die since 7 October 2023 in Gaza.

We all bleed the same way and not enough is being done to lower temperatures, drop weapons, find common ground and above all else stop the killing.

Forgive me for this, but I have really struggled with my humanity of late, doing what I can behind the scenes as a volunteer, and not speaking publicly anyway. Until now. For whatever good it does.

 

[silky52]

I would say Israel IS trying to get the hostages back with their all out retaliation approach, while simultaneously NOT capitulating in any significant way to the Hamas animals.

The all out retaliation approach obviously played a large part in the initial hostage release, and it may well yield results a second time.

I also believe it’s finally dawning on the Hamas animals and the Palestinian "civilians" that October 7th was a victory in reverse.

*nods*

It's like talking to the wall. Everything I say II74 disagrees with!

Hamas-ISIS and the Gazan civilians are playing stupid games as usual regarding the hostages. Of course HI has been torturing Gazan civilians too with not allowing them the humanitarian aid that they so desperately need.

I really feel that at least 50% of the hostages are dead. How on earth can babies and small children survive in tunnels with no food, no light, and no hygiene? How can the elderly survive without their medication, food and light? Antisemitism is rife and has shown its ugly head yet again. If anyone thinks this war is about land they are wrong it is most certainly about religion.

There is no other way other than all out war, I would beg to differ that it is retaliation, and if it is, there was absolutely no choice in the matter.

 

[Lazaran]

It's like talking to the wall. Everything I say II74 disagrees with!

Hamas-ISIS and the Gazan civilians are playing stupid games as usual regarding the hostages. Of course HI has been torturing Gazan civilians too with not allowing them the humanitarian aid that they so desperately need.

I really feel that at least 50% of the hostages are dead. How on earth can babies and small children survive in tunnels with no food, no light, and no hygiene? How can the elderly survive without their medication, food and light? Antisemitism is rife and has shown its ugly head yet again. If anyone thinks this war is about land they are wrong it is most certainly about religion.

There is no other way other than all out war, I would beg to differ that it is retaliation, and if it is, there was absolutely no choice in the matter.

•
You could be right about the number of dead hostages.

Although, one of the released hostages said she and her kids were held above ground in a "civillian” residence. And some medication has been delivered to Gaza.

•
The “retaliation” by Israel isn’t a criticism from this quarter.

The only time “retaliation” is a bad thing, is when it is based on a unjust premise, and is executed in a barbaric fashion. See: The Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation that SOME claim was a just and justified act of "retaliation".