closed Thread

[Deleted member 6736302]

I don’t know either of you. But is that your best response?

I tend to find in debates that the moral high ground is lost through personal attacks.

It’s also typical of those caught out by their own prejudices.

 

[Nicefella]

A genocide is a deliberate attempt to exterminate a group of people. Not every act of excessive brutality in war is a “genocide”.

That’s a good point and it’s well put. I think the next question is - where does “excessive brutality” end and genocide begin?

FYI - I was going to make a parallel argument between Rwanda and what’s happening now in Israel and I came across an article which talked about his Israel supplied ammunition to the Hutus which helped in eradicating the Tutsis in Rwanda:

“Weapons used in the genocide allegedly included Israeli-made 5.56mm bullets, rifles and grenades, the newspaper reports, but information apparently detailing this is sealed in the contested documentation.

Mr Auron and Mr Mack’s request reportedly stated: “According to various reports in Israel and abroad, the defence exports to Rwanda ostensibly violated international law, at least during the period of the weapons embargo imposed by the UN Security Council.”


The request was denied by the Ministry of Defence and later by the Tel Aviv District Court, upholding the argument that the release of information would undermine state security and international relations.”

We have all rightfully excoriated and jailed all found Hutus for their miserably genocidal acts - but no one is even remotely pointing the finger at Netenyahu for this.

It’s just all so hypocritical.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-following-supreme-court-ruling-a6981911.html

 

[ll74]

No

Stop whining

Destroy HAMAS

How many more of Hamas are left? Where are they, specifically? What is Israel doing to track them down and kill them, specifically.?

 

[Nicefella]

No

Stop whining

Destroy HAMAS

Okay. Thanks. Will Israel blow up their neighborhoods if “Hamas” is hiding there?

But - your response was incredibly illuminating. Use both hands and the full use of your brain before you respond.

And, sadly, respond you will.

 

[snailspace]

I will take your cries of GENOCIDE if

https://twitter.com/x/status/1754911641789956447

 

[snailspace]

How many more of Hamas are left? Where are they, specifically? What is Israel doing to track them down and kill them, specifically.?

Not my job to know, is it?

 

[ll74]

Not my job to know, is it?

Lol.... Of course

 

[Nicefella]

I will take your cries of GENOCIDE if

https://twitter.com/x/status/1754911641789956447

If what?

I don’t follow. Do you ever complete your sentences out loud?

 

[snailspace]

IDF Finds A Dozen Hostage Cages in Khan Younis Tunnels​

 

[Rightguide]

By people (countries, journalists..etc) other than Israel, dipshit.

Your inherent ignorance is showing. Israel has taken the international press through several of these headquarters and hideouts in schools, hospitals, and the refugee camp.

 

[ll74]

Your inherent ignorance is showing. Israel has taken the international press through several of these headquarters and hideouts in schools, hospitals, and the refugee camp.

Yes, I've actually listened to journalist who have described their experience there. And read the articles.

None have confirmed the reports. In fact, when any pressed the IDF for proof, they were told it was too dangerous to see the areas that the IDF described.

But if you have a story that says differently, feel free to share it.

You may recognize skepticism of this nature when you doubt the Gazan deaths reported by the UN, which have also not been independently confirmed (though there are estimates based on visual reconisence).

And let me be clear.... I'm not saying there's no truth to Hamas using hospitals.... I just haven't yet seen confirmation.

And also, it's Israel's responsibility not to bomb hospitals regardless of whether Hamas is using them, per the Geneva convention.

 

[Lazaran]

I strongly disagree with you.
In my opinion, the country of Israel is now pursuing a textbook case of genocide.
They are undertaking 'ethnic cleansing'.

The people of Israel have embraced something they once abhorred.
https://i.imgur.com/HCEZtwC.png

Isn’t there something you’re missing???



Maybe the fact that this is a WAR initiated / instigated by the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation. (An operation that included the participation of Palestinian "civilians" and UNWRA members)

Are you an October 7th denier???

I know you aren’t a Holocaust denier.



In regards to the blatant appeal to emotion exhibited by the reference to Nazi Germany, let us not forget that the WAR didn’t end until Hitler was dead and Germany had surrendered.

Newsflash: The Hamas animal’s leaders are NOT dead, and the Hamas animals have NOT surrendered.



Also:

Israel does NOT have a huge advantage over the Hamas animal’s, because the Hamas animals are backed by Russia, Iran, Hezbollah in Lebanon, etc.



This is NOT genocide on Israel’s part, but rather, the normal process of prosecuting a WAR with extreme prejudice against the Hamas animals who are fairly indistinguishable from "civilians" and UN "humanitarian aid " workers.



The elimination of "hospitals" and "schools", etc, that serve / served as the Hamas animal’s bases of operation, was brought on by the Hamas animal’s actions in violation of international rules against such behavior.



Also:

Before the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation (assisted by "civilians" and UN "humanitarian aid" workers), the Hamas animals, etc, had waged open warfare, terror attacks, and gray zone warfare against Israel for decades. I would submit that Israel has / had shown great restraint until the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation. (assisted by "civilians" and UN "humanitarian aid" workers.



Until the Hamas animal’s leadership is dead or captured, and the Hamas animal’s have surrendered unconditionally, Israel has every right to continue prosecuting their WAR with extreme prejudice against an enemy that doesn’t respect ANY international rules / laws.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

Isn’t there something you’re missing???



Maybe the fact that this is a WAR initiated / instigated by the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation. (An operation that included the participation of Palestinian "civilians" and UNWRA members)

Are you an October 7th denier???

I know you aren’t a Holocaust denier.



In regards to the blatant appeal to emotion exhibited by the reference to Nazi Germany, let us not forget that the WAR didn’t end until Hitler was dead and Germany had surrendered.

Newsflash: The Hamas animal’s leaders are NOT dead, and the Hamas animals have NOT surrendered.



Also:

Israel does NOT have a huge advantage over the Hamas animal’s, because the Hamas animals are backed by Russia, Iran, Hezbollah in Lebanon, etc.



This is NOT genocide on Israel’s part, but rather, the normal process of prosecuting a WAR with extreme prejudice against the Hamas animals who are fairly indistinguishable from "civilians" and UN "humanitarian aid " workers.



The elimination of "hospitals" and "schools", etc, that serve / served as the Hamas animal’s bases of operation, was brought on by the Hamas animal’s actions in violation of international rules against such behavior.



Also:

Before the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation (assisted by "civilians" and UN "humanitarian aid" workers), the Hamas animals, etc, had waged open warfare, terror attacks, and gray zone warfare against Israel for decades. I would submit that Israel has / had shown great restraint until the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation. (assisted by "civilians" and UN "humanitarian aid" workers.



Until the Hamas animal’s leadership is dead or captured, and the Hamas animal’s have surrendered unconditionally, Israel has every right to continue prosecuting their WAR with extreme prejudice against an enemy that doesn’t respect ANY international rules / laws.

This argument is historically inaccurate.

This has been ongoing since 1948. Fact.

Hamas may have produced the conditions for a new conflict in Gaza, but 2023 prior to 7 October was already the deadliest to be a Palestinian in Gaza, the West Bank and in Israel due to the IDF and settler violence.

Only an idiot thinks this is a one sided affair and all the victims are on one side of the border.

 

[Lazaran]

This argument is historically inaccurate.

This has been ongoing since 1948. Fact.

Hamas may have produced the conditions for a new conflict in Gaza, but 2023 prior to 7 October was already the deadliest to be a Palestinian in Gaza, the West Bank and in Israel due to the IDF and settler violence.

Only an idiot thinks this is a one sided affair and all the victims are on one side of the border.

Is reading for comprehension beyond you???

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

Is reading for comprehension beyond you???

I read it, but I am a trained historian and you have cherry picked a number of as yet unproven facts (including, I note, the claim about UNWRA representatives for which no evidence has been provided by Israel to date for their claims, investigation is ongoing).

Hamas did not exist thirty years ago in Gaza and the plight of the Palestinians there and in the West Bank has been subject to an apartheid regime for 75 years this year.

I remain unsurprised that some conservative Americans are willing to defend Israel at all costs but what is chilling is that they do so with the full knowledge of the awful reality happening.

 

[Lazaran]

I read it, but I am a trained historian and you have cherry picked a number of as yet unproven facts (including, I note, the claim about UNWRA representatives for which no evidence has been provided by Israel to date for their claims, investigation is ongoing).

Hamas did not exist thirty years ago in Gaza and the plight of the Palestinians there and in the West Bank has been subject to an apartheid regime for 75 years this year.

I remain unsurprised that some conservative Americans are willing to defend Israel at all costs but what is chilling is that they do so with the full knowledge of the awful reality happening.

So you’re a historian that can’t read for comprehension.



Side note:

If you think my assessment of the Israel - Palestinian situation makes me a "conservative", then boy do I have news for you.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

I read it, but I am a trained historian and you have cherry picked a number of as yet unproven facts (including, I note, the claim about UNWRA representatives for which no evidence has been provided by Israel to date for their claims, investigation is ongoing).

Hamas did not exist thirty years ago in Gaza and the plight of the Palestinians there and in the West Bank has been subject to an apartheid regime for 75 years this year.

I remain unsurprised that some conservative Americans are willing to defend Israel at all costs but what is chilling is that they do so with the full knowledge of the awful reality happening.

I'm appalled by the latent antisemitism on the left that the October 7th attack on Israel brought to the surface.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

I'm appalled by the latent antisemitism on the left that the October 7th attack on Israel brought to the surface.

Antsemitism is not a get out of jail free card to ignore basic facts about a conflict in which an entire country’s military has now dropped more explosive weaponry in terms of total tonnage than was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined during WW2.

I’m appalled that rather than deal with the facts and human suffering happening in front of you, you would rather play dog whistle politics with false antisemitism accusations.

I am not the one currently dropping 2000lb bombs on civilians indiscriminately. Israel is. Israel is not above criticism of its tactics. If it is, then we have a big problem globally.

 

[Lazaran]

I am not the one currently dropping 2000lb bombs on civilians indiscriminately

You missed the “ETC” in a post, and then spouted off on the lack of historical accuracy in that post, and now you post a histrionic, hyperbolic exaggeration of how Israel is prosecuting the WAR against a barbaric enemy that didn’t / doesn’t respect or follow ANY international rules / laws.



Be better.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

You missed the “ETC” in a post, and then spouted off on the lack of historical accuracy in that post, and now you post a histrionic, hyperbolic exaggeration of how Israel is prosecuting the WAR against a barbaric enemy that didn’t / doesn’t respect or follow ANY international rules / laws.



Be better.

No one, I hope, is suggesting that Hamas are in any way good (obviously not!) but you cannot sit there and say that everything started on 7 October 2023. That is historically dishonest.

I’m afraid the ICJ ruling confirms my views, and I am not afraid to say I was sorry to see that ruling. Nobody wants to see countries commit or be accused of genocide. The point is we are now globally in a position where that is happening and the only way to stop that is for both sides to lay down their arms.

Israel is not interested in doing that. So we just criticise that stance. Criticising Israel does not mean I support or condone Hamas..

 

[Lazaran]

I'm appalled by the latent antisemitism on the left that the October 7th attack on Israel brought to the surface.

I would limit that accusation of latent antisemitism on the left to the far-left, and to certain ethnic subsets that SOME people consider as being on "the left".

I would consider myself to be on "the left", (I label myself a pragmatic progressive) as opposed to being on "the right", but I certainly don’t associate myself with many of the extreme positions of the far-left and those ethnic subsets that SOME people consider as being on "the left".

Of course, the latent antisemitism of SOME on "the left", is easily matched / surpassed by the blatant antisemitism of MANY on the right.

 

[ll74]

No one, I hope, is suggesting that Hamas are in any way good (obviously not!) but you cannot sit there and say that everything started on 7 October 2023. That is historically dishonest.

I’m afraid the ICJ ruling confirms my views, and I am not afraid to say I was sorry to see that ruling. Nobody wants to see countries commit or be accused of genocide. The point is we are now globally in a position where that is happening and the only way to stop that is for both sides to lay down their arms.

Israel is not interested in doing that. So we just criticise that stance. Criticising Israel does not mean I support or condone Hamas..

I think people don't quite understand war crimes and what they mean. They protect civilians. And they put the responsibility on those attacking in civilian areas, regardless of what their opposition does. So if you are attacking me and I am using a civilian as a human shield, it's still your responsibility to avoid killing that civilian.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

Antsemitism is not a get out of jail free card to ignore basic facts about a conflict in which an entire country’s military has now dropped more explosive weaponry in terms of total tonnage than was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined during WW2.

I’m appalled that rather than deal with the facts and human suffering happening in front of you, you would rather play dog whistle politics with false antisemitism accusations.

I am not the one currently dropping 2000lb bombs on civilians indiscriminately. Israel is. Israel is not above criticism of its tactics. If it is, then we have a big problem globally.

The pro-Palestinian left holds Israel to standards it doesn't apply to other nations. The Netanyahu government is appalling and hopefully they will be voted out of power soon, but Jews have a right to live in their ancestral homeland.

 

[Lazaran]

No one, I hope, is suggesting that Hamas are in any way good (obviously not!) but you cannot sit there and say that everything started on 7 October 2023. That is historically dishonest.

From my comment that you are referencing:

“Before the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation (assisted by "civilians" and UN "humanitarian aid" workers), the Hamas animals, ETC, had waged open warfare, terror attacks, and gray zone warfare against Israel for decades. I would submit that Israel has / had shown great restraint until the Hamas animal’s October 7th rape, torture, murder, and kidnapping operation. (assisted by "civilians" and UN "humanitarian aid" workers.”

Read that ^, (I edited the etc into all-caps so you wouldn’t miss it), and try to comprehend what it actually says.

At no point did I suggest that the hostilities between Israel and Hamas, ETC, began on October 7th. Quite the contrary.



Hope that ^ helps.

 

[Deleted member 6736302]

The pro-Palestinian left holds Israel to standards it doesn't apply to other nations. The Netanyahu government is appalling and hopefully they will be voted out of power soon, but Jews have a right to live in their ancestral homeland.

Do the Palestinians not have a right to live in theirs?

Two states, sharing the land.

By your logic, America should give itself back to the native Americans.

Would you be willing to do that?